The Quad (US, Japan, India, Australia Security Dialogue) : Updates and Discussions

[BMD]

That was the plan. Our leaders didn't allow it to happen.

India was supposed to have a big hole in the middle.

By conspiring with Pakistan, the Nizam there screwed up, which allowed India to send its army in and take control.

Nobody knows what you're talking about here. We're discussing Kashmir only and if it had been split 50:50 in the first place. In fact, if they'd split Kashmir 50:50 and made Bangladesh the princely state, that would pretty much have been all problems solved and lots of lives saved.

I am personally more neutral than my country. On this forum, I am merely opposed to your views.

I think we both know that's not the case. My only view is that Russia is in the wrong, you can't really oppose that view and be neutral I'm afraid.

 

[randomradio]

Nobody knows what you're talking about here. We're discussing Kashmir only and if it had been split 50:50 in the first place. In fact, if they'd split Kashmir 50:50 and made Bangladesh the princely state, that would pretty much have been all problems solved and lots of lives saved.

Kashmir has been split 50:50, which is why it's become a problem.

I think we both know that's not the case. My only view is that Russia is in the wrong, you can't really oppose that view and be neutral I'm afraid.

Russia is doing exactly what any country should do in their place. You can't announce to a country that you are now their enemy, ie, you won't hesitate to kill their countrymen, and not expect any blowback.

Joining NATO, or announcing you plan on joining NATO, without being prepared to be attacked should and must incite an attack from Russia. This much is obvious.

Look, it's simple. You don't want a great power to attack a small country, then don't try and rope that country into an alliance against that great power without first arming the small country enough to act as deterrent, at least long enough to become part of the alliance.

I'll make it even simpler. If Nepal, BD or Sri Lanka just up and decide that they will join a Chinese alliance against India, you can bet that these countries will get blown to kingdom come. There's no two ways about it. They will be completely wiped off the map.

Similarly, Ukraine just up and decided to become Russia's enemy overnight, so they are being treated like one. If Georgia does this tomorrow, they are next. The Baltics escaped 'cause Russia was weak then. Finland may escape an invasion for the same reason. But Ukraine? No chance, they are screwed.

This is literally common sense. Like, I can't even fathom why it's difficult to get this, it's the very definition of common sense. All you need is an IQ of 65 and above to understand this. Even a 12 year old gets this.

 

[BMD]

Kashmir has been split 50:50, which is why it's become a problem.

No, the problem is that you both feel you are entitled to it. So a 50:50 split is about fair. It's actually split 55:45 in India's favour anyway.

Russia is doing exactly what any country should do in their place. You can't announce to a country that you are now their enemy, ie, you won't hesitate to kill their countrymen, and not expect any blowback.

You can't invade a country's peninsula and expect them not to be your enemy. Ukraine didn't make themselves Russia's enemy, Russia did that when it invaded Crimea and the Donbass. Ukraine just wanted to join the EU.

Joining NATO, or announcing you plan on joining NATO, without being prepared to be attacked should and must incite an attack from Russia. This much is obvious.

This is just idiotic thinking on your part. Ukraine's moves to join NATO started in early to mid-noughties. There's no reason for it to incite an attack since NATO has always acted as a defensive alliance in Europe. It has only intervened in a war once in Europe since its founding, and it has never started one, which is far better than Russia's record.

Look, it's simple. You don't want a great power to attack a small country, then don't try and rope that country into an alliance against that great power without first arming the small country enough to act as deterrent, at least long enough to become part of the alliance.

NATO isn't an alliance against Russia, it's an alliance against any aggressor in or on Europe or North America. Russia just seems to want to play the role of that aggressor all the time for some reason.

I'll make it even simpler. If Nepal, BD or Sri Lanka just up and decide that they will join a Chinese alliance against India, you can bet that these countries will get blown to kingdom come. There's no two ways about it. They will be completely wiped off the map.

China has outstanding territorial disputes inside recognised borders of India and there's ongoing border skirmishes, and it's also a fairly malevolent dictatorship, so it's hardly the same thing. NATO has no territorial disputes inside the recognised borders of Russia, nor are there any NATO skirmishes inside Russia, and it would be damn hard to pass a bill in any of the 32 parliaments that changes that. So you're comparing chalk and shit again.

Similarly, Ukraine just up and decided to become Russia's enemy overnight, so they are being treated like one. If Georgia does this tomorrow, they are next. The Baltics escaped 'cause Russia was weak then. Finland may escape an invasion for the same reason. But Ukraine? No chance, they are screwed.

Yeah, after Russia invaded them... twice... what don't you under-f*cking-stand about that? It's like me being sat here pretending I'm puzzled about why you're enemies with Pakistan, or China.

This is literally common sense. Like, I can't even fathom why it's difficult to get this, it's the very definition of common sense. All you need is an IQ of 65 and above to understand this. Even a 12 year old gets this.

Now there's irony. Russia behaves like a c*nt on a permanent basis for centuries, including the last one, right up to the present day, and is then puzzled why its neighbours all think it's a c*nt.

 

[randomradio]

No, the problem is that you both feel you are entitled to it. So a 50:50 split is about fair. It's actually split 55:45 in India's favour anyway.

No, Kashmir belongs to India based on the rules the British created. It's the Pakistanis who feel entitled to it simply because some small part of the state has some Muslims.

You can't invade a country's peninsula and expect them not to be your enemy. Ukraine didn't make themselves Russia's enemy, Russia did that when it invaded Crimea and the Donbass. Ukraine just wanted to join the EU.

This is just idiotic thinking on your part. Ukraine's moves to join NATO started in early to mid-noughties. There's no reason for it to incite an attack since NATO has always acted as a defensive alliance in Europe. It has only intervened in a war once in Europe since its founding, and it has never started one, which is far better than Russia's record.

NATO isn't an alliance against Russia, it's an alliance against any aggressor in or on Europe or North America. Russia just seems to want to play the role of that aggressor all the time for some reason.

China has outstanding territorial disputes inside recognised borders of India and there's ongoing border skirmishes, and it's also a fairly malevolent dictatorship, so it's hardly the same thing. NATO has no territorial disputes inside the recognised borders of Russia, nor are there any NATO skirmishes inside Russia, and it would be damn hard to pass a bill in any of the 32 parliaments that changes that. So you're comparing chalk and shit again.

Yeah, after Russia invaded them... twice... what don't you under-f*cking-stand about that? It's like me being sat here pretending I'm puzzled about why you're enemies with Pakistan, or China.

Now there's irony. Russia behaves like a c*nt on a permanent basis for centuries, including the last one, right up to the present day, and is then puzzled why its neighbours all think it's a c*nt.

If you're an enemy country and you're too weak to be one, then you cease to exist. Simple rules of nature as explained in Darwin's Theory of Evolution.

 

[BMD]

No, Kashmir belongs to India based on the rules the British created. It's the Pakistanis who feel entitled to it simply because some small part of the state has some Muslims.

But the British Empire was wrong remember, you can't suddenly say they're right when it suits you. Britain had no right to demarcate territories around India, anymore than it had right to invade them in the first place. Annexation isn't a decision for one ruler, it's a decision for the people. Otherwise Russia could appoint some clown in Donetsk and him just say, "oh, I'd like to join Russia."

If you're an enemy country and you're too weak to be one, then you cease to exist. Simple rules of nature as explained in Darwin's Theory of Evolution.

They weren't an enemy country until Russia attacked them. In fact the whole EU and Russia were getting on okay until Putin decided to change that by playing 19th century imperialism.

 

[randomradio]

But the British Empire was wrong remember, you can't suddenly say they're right when it suits you. Britain had no right to demarcate territories around India, anymore than it had right to invade them in the first place. Annexation isn't a decision for one ruler, it's a decision for the people. Otherwise Russia could appoint some clown in Donetsk and him just say, "oh, I'd like to join Russia."

Yes, they didn't. But they did and we had to follow if we wanted independence. But after the Brits left, we changed quite a bit of the rules in our favour. Like the independence of princely kingdoms was discarded. They were forced to choose.

They weren't an enemy country until Russia attacked them. In fact the whole EU and Russia were getting on okay until Putin decided to change that by playing 19th century imperialism.

They become an enemy country in 2008, when they applied to join NATO.

 

[BMD]

Yes, they didn't. But they did and we had to follow if we wanted independence. But after the Brits left, we changed quite a bit of the rules in our favour. Like the independence of princely kingdoms was discarded. They were forced to choose.

Yeah, so forced, exactly, hardly democratic will is it?

They become an enemy country in 2008, when they applied to join NATO.

What? So Russia waited 6 years?

 

[randomradio]

Yeah, so forced, exactly, hardly democratic will is it?

What? So Russia waited 6 years?

They lacked the capability then. They got busy in Georgia too. Also the NATO entry was just optics at the time, plus Ukraine still had a positive perception of Russia.

 

[BMD]

They lacked the capability then. They got busy in Georgia too. Also the NATO entry was just optics at the time, plus Ukraine still had a positive perception of Russia.

They lack capability now too. Russia changed that perception through its actions, not anyone else. Your arguments make no sense. The bottom line is that Russia felt it had an historical territorial claim on Ukraine in the same way that China does with India, and this is a land grab.

 

[randomradio]

They lack capability now too. Russia changed that perception through its actions, not anyone else. Your arguments make no sense. The bottom line is that Russia felt it had an historical territorial claim on Ukraine in the same way that China does with India, and this is a land grab.

Only for the Russian regions that were incorrectly connected to Ukraine.

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1591559740680708096

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1594974074153095168

 

[BMD]

Only for the Russian regions that were incorrectly connected to Ukraine.

Pakistan probably feels the same way about Muslim regions of your country. And what about all the non-Russian regions connected to Russia, like Chechnya, Dagestan, Buryatia etc. should they be ceded by Russia. There are very few 'Russian' parts of Ukraine anyway.

And people moving somewhere en masse historically does not give them a right to it today anyway.

 

[A Person]

when they applied to join NATO.

That never happened.

You should know better than to believe Russian talking points; they are never not lying. They are physically incapable of not lying. They cannot even fathom the idea of not lying. The mere thought that "truth" is a thing that exists causes them to shriek and recoil in terror.

Ukraine joined Partnership for Pace in 1994, same as the rest of the former Warsaw Pact. Then there was an "Individualized Partnership Action Plan" in 2002, and then an "Intensified Dialogue" in 2005. Nothing in 2008.

See, the thing is that a country doesn't really "apply to join NATO", that's not how it works. A country is invited to join by unanimous agreement, and then must ratify the treaty. Since 1999, this invitation can take the form of a "Membership Action Plan", which is a roadmap of things a country needs to do before it can join, this include resolving any and all border disputes. And so in 2008, it's Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia which received such a MAP. Note that Serbia did not request such a thing, but they received it anyway; it was a diplomatic move so that they wouldn't feel threatened by the rest of their neighbors getting in.

Now it's true that a country can demand to be invited, and this is what Finland and Sweden have done recently. Ukraine did that... on the 30th of September 2022.

 

[BMD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598300883376254977

 

[RASALGHUL]

That never happened.

Merkel defends 2008 decision to block Ukraine from NATO

Former German chancellor Angela Merkel on Monday defended her 2008 decision to block Ukraine from immediately joining NATO, rejecting President Volodymyr Zelensky's criticism as Russia's invasion clouds…

www.france24.com

"Germany had deemed it too early for Ukraine to join NATO in 2008 because it found that the political conditions were not met at that point".

France won't back Ukraine and Georgia NATO bids

France will not support bids by the former Soviet republics of Georgia and Ukraine to become members of NATO, putting it at odds with the United States, French Prime Minister Francois Fillon said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

"France will not support bids by the former Soviet republics of Georgia and Ukraine to become members of NATO, putting it at odds with the United States, French Prime Minister Francois Fillon said on Tuesday."

“France will not give its green light to the entry of Ukraine and Georgia,”

 

[A Person]

Yeah, Georgia and Ukraine did not receive a MAP. Note that receiving a MAP is not the same as joining.

 

[RASALGHUL]

Yeah, Georgia and Ukraine did not receive a MAP. Note that receiving a MAP is not the same as joining.

What are you trying to say? The way I see it.......
Ukraine wanted to join NATO.
For that Ukraine wanted to fulfill/implement all the requirements/standards that were necessary to join NATO.
US was hot for this deal, But France and Germany already said that they will Veto it.

 

[jetray]

Pakistan probably feels the same way about Muslim regions of your country. And what about all the non-Russian regions connected to Russia, like Chechnya, Dagestan, Buryatia etc. should they be ceded by Russia. There are very few 'Russian' parts of Ukraine anyway.

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And people moving somewhere en masse historically does not give them a right to it today anyway.

why do you make such stupid statements ? India is a predominantly buddhist/hindu country throughout the history. If there is a muslim region they should have either displaced the existing population or converted. Now pray and tell how can pakistan lay claim for that part of the country. If the population is displaced they will be considered as invaders and if they converted its only their religion has changed not the country's.

 

[BMD]

why do you make such stupid statements ? India is a predominantly buddhist/hindu country throughout the history. If there is a muslim region they should have either displaced the existing population or converted. Now pray and tell how can pakistan lay claim for that part of the country. If the population is displaced they will be considered as invaders and if they converted its only their religion has changed not the country's.

The same applies to the parts of Ukraine with ethnic Russians in them. Ukraine is still Ukraine regardless of their presence. Historically Russians are only really entitled to a small area around Moscow if they care to bring up historical entitlements.