Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk

[Milspec]

All foreign deals where they are not involved have now become existential threats to HAL.

Coming to the point you made, HAL wants the IAF to issue an RFP for all 106 trainers, whereas IAF wants the order shared between HAL and Pilatus. So 68 HTT-40s and 38 PC-7 Mk IIs. This is also what the MoD had promised back in 2015.

HAL was supposed to have the aircraft certified by early 2018. But it's already a year gone and has still not finished certification. And the most optimistic date for finishing all tests is well after 2020, and a few more years for production and induction. The program officially started in 2012. Who the hell takes 10+ years to induct a trainer?

And it gets worse. Since Pilatus failed to get the order of 38, they have refused to extend the maintenance term on the same price, which led to MoD rejecting the new price. So now IAF is sourcing parts from the open market for the trainer, which is likely more expensive. So IAF today doesn't have the HTT-40, the 38 extra PC-7s as well as no active maintenance contract for the existing PC-7s.

HAL has successfully held the IAF hostage to their whims and fancies.

Well, the team for trainer project was formed in 2014, and MoD committed in 2016. HTT 40 is actually a pretty fast project. If we look at "Official" start dates, are you considering LCA's start date as 84? And yes absolutely operating two different trainers as pointed out by the IAF indeed is a logistical nightmare, Just that it doesn't apply to operate Mirage 2000, MKI, Mig29, LCA, (4 different 4th gen aircrafts) and then the Rafale and MMRCA (RFP) now.

 

[randomradio]

This refers to the news in section of media that IAF is not issuing tender for HTT 40. HAL has not received any communication from IAF on this. The news is speculative. HAL's HTT 40 program remains on track. @drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @SpokespersonMoD @gopalsutar

— HAL (@HALHQBLR) June 11, 2019

@randomradio @Falcon @vstol Jockey

Ajay Shukla

Wow, that guy has no shame.

 

[randomradio]

Well, the team for trainer project was formed in 2014, and MoD committed in 2016. HTT 40 is actually a pretty fast project. If we look at "Official" start dates, are you considering LCA's start date as 84?

Design started in 2012, finished in 2015. First flight in 2016 and still not done. Expected completion date is 2021. Induction after that. 10+ years, that's ridiculous.

And yes absolutely operating two different trainers as pointed out by the IAF indeed is a logistical nightmare, Just that it doesn't apply to operate Mirage 2000, MKI, Mig29, LCA, (4 different 4th gen aircrafts) and then the Rafale and MMRCA (RFP) now.

Two trainers are indeed pointless. All other aircraft have their own specific uses and none of these aircraft actually interfere in the mission of the other even if there is some superficial overlap.

 

[randomradio]

Lets see,
LCH money was released before completion of High altitude trials, Brahmos orders were committed and money released by both Army and the Airforce before testing.

Nothing correct there. In fact it turns out the IAF and IA are yet to order the LCH. AFAIK, the IAF is yet to order Brahmos-A.

KH31P bought without a single user test, KH35 bought without a user test, R73ET user trials were done from the first batch bought. And then there is the IAF chief batting for PC7 better than their salesman. And lets not mention Augusta Westland here, we are all aware how IAF can play gymnastics with the trials and specifications before RFP.

Some one should look into this, and especially NAK Browne's involvement in the process.

All these are fully finished systems. Not under development systems. You are being disingenuous here.

And the chopper scandal did turn out to be a scam under the previous regime. Nothing wrong with the gymnastics played when setting up RFP, the problem is when money changes hands, in other words, when the gymnastics occur due to corruption and not genuine needs. The user can do whatever they want after all, that's why they are the user, and that's why LCA received waiver after waiver during the course of its development even after the IAF had ordered and paid for 40 jets.

Let's let the professionals decide, shall we, and not some company?

 

[Milspec]

Nothing correct there. In fact it turns out the IAF and IA are yet to order the LCH. AFAIK, the IAF is yet to order Brahmos-A.



All these are fully finished systems. Not under development systems. You are being disingenuous here.

And the chopper scandal did turn out to be a scam under the previous regime. Nothing wrong with the gymnastics played when setting up RFP, the problem is when money changes hands, in other words, when the gymnastics occur due to corruption and not genuine needs. The user can do whatever they want after all, that's why they are the user, and that's why LCA received waiver after waiver during the course of its development even after the IAF had ordered and paid for 40 jets.

Let's let the professionals decide, shall we, and not some company?

In that case the user should also pay it's full dues, and interests on unpaid collections?

 

[randomradio]

In that case the user should also pay it's full dues, and interests on unpaid collections?

MoD actually. Not the user. All finance decision go through MoD.

 

[Milspec]

Nothing correct there. In fact it turns out the IAF and IA are yet to order the LCH. AFAIK, the IAF is yet to order Brahmos-A.



All these are fully finished systems. Not under development systems. You are being disingenuous here.

And the chopper scandal did turn out to be a scam under the previous regime. Nothing wrong with the gymnastics played when setting up RFP, the problem is when money changes hands, in other words, when the gymnastics occur due to corruption and not genuine needs. The user can do whatever they want after all, that's why they are the user, and that's why LCA received waiver after waiver during the course of its development even after the IAF had ordered and paid for 40 jets.

Let's let the professionals decide, shall we, and not some company?

On November 7, 2016, the defence ministry had cleared a Rs 2,911-crore procurement of 15 LCHs as a “limited series production” (LSP) order – a little under Rs 200 crore per helicopter.
the army has committed to ordering 114 LCHs, and the air force another 65, which could be built at an upcoming helicopter production facility in Tumkur.
Arun Jaitley inaugurates manufacture of light combat helicopter at HAL

 

[Milspec]

MoD actually. Not the user. All finance decision go through MoD.

Are you accusing MoD/RM of a looting a PSU of 1200Cr interest cost?

 

[Milspec]

All these are fully finished systems. Not under development systems. You are being disingenuous here.

Yawn, India was the first user for R27ER, India was also the first user for Mig29K which also btw inducted without any IOC/FOC. As a matter of fact the ACM trying to underplay the cost of PC7 should have been a dead giveaway there was something else going on there.
If there is a another inquiry, Browne will go down the same drain as Naik.

 

[Milspec]

Let's let the professionals decide, shall we, and not some company?

We have developed a trainer, that will meet more stringent performance characteristics than IAF's choice. If IAF brass is trying to make a quick buck by looting the taxpayers, we will stick it to them and the MoD. I say more power to HAL on this one. Especially when the professional have a long lineup of scams lining up in their past conduct.

 

[randomradio]

On November 7, 2016, the defence ministry had cleared a Rs 2,911-crore procurement of 15 LCHsas a “limited series production” (LSP) order – a little under Rs 200 crore per helicopter.
the armyhas committed to ordering 114 LCHs, and the air force another 65, which could be built at an upcoming helicopter production facility in Tumkur.
Arun Jaitley inaugurates manufacture of light combat helicopter at HAL

Dunno if money was disbursed. Weirdly enough IAF is yet to place an order.

Are you accusing MoD/RM of a looting a PSU of 1200Cr interest cost?

You can think of it that way. But even the HAL Chief won't agree with you.

Yawn, India was the first user for R27ER, India was also the first user for Mig29K which also btw inducted without any IOC/FOC.

India has been the first user for a lot of stuff actually, even the R-77. And the Mig-29K did undergo IOC and FOC. It happened in Russia obviously. IN got the finished goods. Btw, all weapons are tested before induction.

As a matter of fact the ACM trying to underplay the cost of PC7 should have been a dead giveaway there was something else going on there.
If there is a another inquiry, Browne will go down the same drain as Naik.

Naik? I think you're talking about Tyagi.

PC-7 is indeed cheaper than HTT-40. If you think there was corruption involved, then you should push for a PIL in the SC. But then, nobody thinks there's corruption involved, the PC-7 did win the tender in 2011. It beat 2 other aircraft from US and Korea. Maybe you don't know, but the IAF had announced back in 2009 that they will buy 75 trainers from the tender and allow HAL to deliver 106 trainers of their own. Big mistake there. And we know that today. They could have saved themselves a lot of headache if HAL had simply license produced all 181 trainers.

 

[_Anonymous_]

They could have saved themselves a lot of headache if HAL had simply license produced all 181 trainers.

So, what about indigenous development? Do we continue assembly lines indefinitely as far as HAL is concerned?
While you raise valid points & HAL isn't exactly known for innovation or expediting deliveries on time, they're still our best bet till such time as MII delivers fruits thru the Pvt Sector.

I favour HAL - IJT. Let it come by 2021-22.The monies stay at home. That's how Modi - Shah think too. The IAF already have 72 Pilatus's. A few more or less in a few years won't upset their schedule too much. It's not as if a war is beyond the corner given Gaganshakti & 27th Feb.

 

[randomradio]

So, what about indigenous development? Do we continue assembly lines indefinitely as far as HAL is concerned?

What's more important? Getting the IAF the assets they sorely need or take decades to build a trainer and delay what is probably the most important arm of the IAF?

Indigenisation is important, but it should make sense and applied in the right places.

Do you know even the Americans don't really give two sh!ts about indigenisation in comparison to operational availability?

That's why their new T-X tender went to the Boeing/Saab combo, where Saab is the one designing and building the prototype jet in Sweden, with Boeing only contributing the "Boeing" sticker to affix on the plane during delivery, talk about outsourcing. And unlike us, the Americans are not desperate for a trainer. So why is the greatest aviation industry license building a foreign trainer?

While you raise valid points & HAL isn't exactly known for innovation or expediting deliveries on time, they're still our best bet till such time as MII delivers fruits thru the Pvt Sector.

Sure. But that doesn't mean they get to dictate just because they are a monopoly.

I favour HAL - IJT. Let it come by 2021-22.The monies stay at home. That's how Modi - Shah think too. The IAF already have 72 Pilatus's. A few more or less in a few years won't upset their schedule too much. It's not as if a war is beyond the corner given Gaganshakti & 27th Feb.

Then we won't have pilots. Every year pilots retire and every year we have to train new pilots to replace the retirees. That's not gonna happen if HAL doesn't deliver. 75 PC-7s are too less for an air force the size of India. We should have been taking deliveries of the remaining 38 by now.

 

[Milspec]

Dunno if money was disbursed. Weirdly enough IAF is yet to place an order.

Ther you go.

You can think of it that way. But even the HAL Chief won't agree with you.

We'll see.

India has been the first user for a lot of stuff actually, even the R-77. And the Mig-29K did undergo IOC and FOC. It happened in Russia obviously. IN got the finished goods. Btw, all weapons are tested before induction.

Where do you come up with this BS? Russia was the first user for R77 article 170, and then deployed Article 190 in 2000 and was already working on other variants. , India got Article 190 RVV AE in 1999-2002. Peru got RVV AE- in 98,

Naik? I think you're talking about Tyagi.

yes Tyagi

PC-7 is indeed cheaper than HTT-40. If you think there was corruption involved, then you should push for a PIL in the SC. But then, nobody thinks there's corruption involved, the PC-7 did win the tender in 2011. It beat 2 other aircraft from US and Korea. Maybe you don't know, but the IAF had announced back in 2009 that they will buy 75 trainers from the tender and allow HAL to deliver 106 trainers of their own. Big mistake there. And we know that today. They could have saved themselves a lot of headache if HAL had simply license produced all 181 trainers.

Given that IAF had decided in your words "they will buy 75 trainers from the tender and allow HAL to deliver 106 trainers of their own" They accounted and planned for operating two dissimilar aircraft, one import and one indigenous, what seems to be the problem then. if it's just commission then?

Now lets come to cost :

@randomradio, I introduce you to @randomradio : let the arguments begin.

HAL proved the commercial viability of the project. The HTT-40 will be cheaper than the PC-7.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Now lets come to cost :

@randomradio, I introduce you to @randomradio : let the arguments begin.

I wouldn't blame him too much. Intense optimism is and should be tempered from time to time. At times, the cup doth slip the lip.

Bacche ki jaan mat lo.

 

[randomradio]

Where do you come up with this BS? Russia was the first user for R77 article 170, and then deployed Article 190 in 2000, India got Article 190 RVV AE in 2006.

Russia has never operated the R-77. Only a few years ago they bought a small number of RVV-SD. Their main missile will be the K-77M.

Given that IAF had decided in your words "they will buy 75 trainers from the tender and allow HAL to deliver 106 trainers of their own" They accounted and planned for operating two dissimilar aircraft, one import and one indigenous, what seems to be the problem then. if it's just commission then?

The dates have been pushed way too much now.

Now lets come to cost :

@randomradio, I introduce you to @randomradio : let the arguments begin.

Look at the date of my post. It's March 2018, more than a year ago. HAL was supposed to finish flight testing the HTT-40 by then and initiate production. Now the new date is 2020-21 for initiation of production. You should know that delays come with new costs, right?

I posted this just a few posts ago:
HAL was supposed to have the aircraft certified by early 2018.

Certified by 2018 vs certified by 2021, you decide.

My post you quoted was made with the knowledge that production was to begin soon, not forever delayed again.

Otoh, Pilatus is ready to deliver the remaining PC-7s on the earlier agreed upon costs.

Anyway, it looks like the HTT-40 orders have dropped from 106 to 68 already. So the Pilatus order will likely go forward.

 

[Milspec]

Russia has never operated the R-77. Only a few years ago they bought a small number of RVV-SD. Their main missile will be the K-77M.



The dates have been pushed way too much now.



Look at the date of my post. It's March 2018, more than a year ago. HAL was supposed to finish flight testing the HTT-40 by then and initiate production. Now the new date is 2020-21 for initiation of production. You should know that delays come with new costs, right?

I posted this just a few posts ago:
HAL was supposed to have the aircraft certified by early 2018.

Certified by 2018 vs certified by 2021, you decide.

My post you quoted was made with the knowledge that production was to begin soon, not forever delayed again.

Otoh, Pilatus is ready to deliver the remaining PC-7s on the earlier agreed upon costs.

Anyway, it looks like the HTT-40 orders have dropped from 106 to 68 already. So the Pilatus order will likely go forward.

It would have, but MOD/IAF took HAL's bank balance from a high of Rs 17,671 crore in the 2015 financial year to a low of Rs 725 crore at the end of the first half of the current 2019 financial year.If MoD bleeds HAL dry that they have to borrow from banks to pay their employees their salary, how does it deliver on development projects?



Will Pilatus be ok with the delivery if the payments terms are Net 730 days.? Just wondering. let me know which supplier will put up with 2 years of non payment.

 

[Milspec]

Russia has never operated the R-77. Only a few years ago they bought a small number of RVV-SD. Their main missile will be the K-77M.

So R77 magically appears on SU27's stationed in syria?
Russia redeployed advanced Su-35S fighter jets to Syria — defense ministry

 

[randomradio]

It would have, but MOD/IAF took HAL's bank balance from a high of Rs 17,671 crore in the 2015 financial year to a low of Rs 725 crore at the end of the first half of the current 2019 financial year.If MoD bleeds HAL dry that they have to borrow from banks to pay their employees their salary, how does it deliver on development projects?



Will Pilatus be ok with the delivery if the payments terms are Net 730 days.? Just wondering.

Money has never stopped HAL projects. It's their own admission. The same with DRDO. Both have accepted that they are well funded. All employees have been paid properly in both organisations.

Money is no excuse for the delays.

 

[Milspec]

Money has never stopped HAL projects. It's their own admission. The same with DRDO. Both have accepted that they are well funded. All employees have been paid properly in both organisations.

Money is no excuse for the delays.

Learn the basics of how expenditure works in an organization until then it's pointless to explain how a cash strapped organization will struggle to deliver on development projects.

Whats the payment terms for Pilatus, or for that matter Dassault?