Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Comment expliquer les échecs de la défense aérienne russe ?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

How can we explain the failures of Russian air defence?

On the 46th day of the war, Ukrainian aircraft are still flying around. A surprising fact for the Russian army, reputed to be excellent in this field and often presented as the second largest air force in the world.

A state of affairs largely in favour of the Russians


More than a month after the start of the war, Russia still does not seem to be in control of the Ukrainian sky. Bayraktar TB2 drones, MiG-29 fighter planes, Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters are still on the Ukrainian side, as well as an air defence system that continues to intercept Russian missiles and fighter planes. However, from a strategic point of view, the neutralisation of the enemy's air defences (SEAD) is the first task to be accomplished in order to dominate the enemy. This should not have been an insurmountable task for a Russian Air Force with hundreds of advanced fighters, strategic bombers and missiles specifically designed to destroy enemy radars. At the beginning of the war, the Russians had 2,678 aircraft compared to 233 for the Ukrainians. The Ukrainian air defence had less than 200 heavy systems (Buk, S-300...), while Russia praised the merits of its equipment, modernised to deal with all types of threats and intercept even drones. On paper, the Ukrainian army seems to be a dwarf compared to the Russian giant, but it is not content to stand up to it and allows itself some real coups. How is this possible?

Russian anti-aircraft systems overrated?

Among the technological gems that Russia boasts about is the S-400 Triumph ground-to-air anti-aircraft system. Considered by many to be the most advanced anti-aircraft system in the world, it is capable of engaging its targets at a range of 400km. Yet the system was unable to stop two missiles fired by Ukraine at Russian airfields in Melirovo and Taganrog, destroying two Su-30s and an Il-76 on the ground. The same happened in Berdyansk, a captured port on the Sea of Azov, where a Russian landing ship was destroyed by a ballistic missile. In all three cases, they were Tochka-U missiles, simple ballistic missiles from the 1970s with a maximum range of 120 km...

Ukraine even allowed itself to carry out Mi-24 helicopter raids in Belgorod, which requires flying over an occupied area of Ukrainian territory, crossing the Russian border, flying at least 40 km in Russian airspace before bombing a fuel depot and then turning back (video opposite). A plan that went off without a hitch and that leaves one wondering about the effectiveness of Russian air defence systems. Ukraine has again this week shared images of its Mi-8s in action and the loss of a Mig-29 was announced (proving that they were still operating), while Russia announced it had air supremacy over Ukraine on 28 February. It claims to have destroyed more Ukrainian helicopters and fighters than the country had before the war...

TB2 drones, a thorn in Russia's side

Russia has the Krasukha-4 electronic warfare system, officially capable of jamming all communications over 300km and reputed to be one of the most aggressive electronic warfare systems on the planet. It was deployed in Armenia to counter Turkish Bayraktar TB2 drones and prevent their pilots from operating them, without success. The same observation can be made in Ukraine, and the capture of at least one Krasukha 4 could considerably reduce the system's effectiveness once it has been dissected by the intelligence services of Ukraine's allies.

In addition to these means of jamming, Russia had also put forward the KUB and Lancet-3 prowling munitions, said to be effective against TB2 drones. The company Zala even presents the destruction of the Turkish drone in its demonstration video... On the ground, Russia explained that it was the obsolescence of the Pantsir air defence systems in Armenia and Libya that explained their poor capacity to face the TB2, while their own modernised Pantsir would be able to cope. This is not the case, and while Bayraktars have been shot down, Turkey delivered 11 more to Ukraine in March alone... Ukraine could continue to make the Russian bear suffer with its drones, so much so that odes in honour of the Bayraktar are widely shared (video opposite), contributing to Ukrainian propaganda.

Effective Ukrainian air systems

Another reason for the difficulties of Russian air defence is the underestimation of Ukrainian equipment. Indeed, the Ukrainian army had a substantial arsenal of air defence systems, including the S-300 with a range of up to 120km, the DK12 Kub with a range of 24km, the Buk-M1 with a range of 45km, as well as many other theatre anti-aircraft systems. Russia did not commit enough force against these systems, announcing the success of its SEAD missions early on before suffering further losses and then releasing videos of fighters equipped with anti-radar missiles again. The Ukrainian army is receiving increased support from Western countries, which continue to deliver weapons. The delivery of thousands of light surface-to-air missiles began before the war and continues, with the supply of ever more sophisticated means such as the Starstreak portable system produced by Thales UK, with the documented loss of at least one Russian Mi-28 helicopter (see our dedicated article).

As of 20 March, more than 70 Russian aircraft have been shot down through images shared on social media alone, including 9 Su-25, 4 Su-30SM, 5 Su-34 and 1 Su-35... Other aircraft have been shot down and videos are available of them falling, but without formal identification they are not counted. The loss of aircraft known as "4.5+ generation" is explained by their obligation to fly at low altitude to try to fire unguided ammunition, as a high altitude drop has no chance of hitting its target. This is a dangerous descent because it puts the aircraft within range of manpads, a practice that has completely disappeared in Western countries. Although this may seem like a drop in the bucket of available Russian aircraft, the Ukrainians have proven that they can defend themselves against the so-called powerful Russian air force, reducing its ability to act on the territory.

Western intelligence support.

The Ukrainian army would certainly not be as effective without the help of the intelligence services of allied countries, first and foremost the United States. Many countries have deployed ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) assets with overflights of Ukraine's neighbours, the unstated aim being to provide intelligence to the Ukrainians. NATO operates AWACS (Airborne Warning and Command System) aircraft such as the Boeing E-3 Sentry and the E-8 JSTARS, as well as RQ-4 Global Hawk drones that can fly for up to 32 hours. There are also KC6135 Stratotanker tankers. While taking care not to cross the Ukrainian border, they scan the country's interior and obtain tactical information that they share with Ukraine, in particular the take-off of Russian fighter planes, the operating times of Russian radars, the definition of the cones under which Ukrainian aircraft can fly undetected. Similarly, the presence or not of Russian AWACS, the Ilyushin A-50s, is a determining factor for conducting raids. In terms of aerial intelligence, Russia is clearly lagging behind, with only a small volume of Ilyushin and Beriev A-50 aircraft developed during the Soviet era, some fifteen of each model. In comparison, the US has more than a hundred heavy radar aircraft and 170 dedicated airborne aircraft (mainly E-2C Hawkeye). The Russian aircraft apparently only operate for a few hours and do not ensure a permanent air presence, leaving slots available for the Ukrainians to take off the few remaining air assets.

The record is not good for the Russian Army. The failure of the SEAD and the Russian air force, although full of promise, can be explained by a combination of these elements:
  • anti-aircraft systems that are experiencing serious failures,
  • a Ukrainian army better equipped and resilient than estimated,
  • a Russian inability to destroy all Ukrainian defensive and offensive means despite a month and a half of war,
  • the reinforcement of light and efficient defence systems by donations from Western countries,
  • intelligence support from Ukraine's allies.
The war is not over, however, and Moscow has recently deployed more drones, such as the Forpost-R and Orlan-10, in order to adapt to its enemy and put less powerful equipment on the ground, but for which losses are acceptable (destruction of an Orlan-10 thanks to a Starstrek missile in the image opposite, a drone impossible to destroy except with these laser-guided systems). It remains to be seen whether it will be more effective if it limits itself to actions in the Donbass, the only realistic objective that Russia is now trying to achieve.
 
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The only good thing about this that NATO expansion will happen in Northern Europe with Finland and Sweden.

A stronger NATO in Europe thanks to these 2 nations and a weakened Russia will mean USA can put more efforts in Pacific leaving the European front to Europeans.

It's in India's interests that Russia rearm itself to deter China. And the Chinese aim is for Russia to deter the EU and distract the US. And the US has delivered Russia to China in a big way, so we now have to depend more on the US for the next 15-20 years or so.
 
Baltics and Poland are in NATO, any move on them WW3.

Hence the use of the word "dream".

Russia has no end game here. Afghanistan was the US supplying a rag-tag bunch via Pakistan from the other side of the world with a few Stingers, with no real interest other than opposing Soviet aggression. Ukraine is the US, UK, CAN, AUS, NZ and EU all supplying Ukraine from next door, with a lot more equipment, with a real interest. It will never ever end until Russia is out of Ukraine, never. If Russia are still there in 2050, then the war will still be going, and after 2024 that will be without European oil and gas revenue. Putin will be dead long before the war ends if Russia stay.

The SU's retreat had little to do with the Mujahideen and more to do with their economic condition.

As for Transnistria, Ukraine are happy to retreat into it, occupying it as they do, if there is a need (which seems very unlikely at present), and Moldova will help them.

In the scenario I gave, Russia would be connected to Transnistria through Odessa.
 
At night, in the village of Zvonetskoye, Dnepropetrovsk region, high-precision sea-based missiles destroyed the headquarters and base of the nationalist battalion "Dnepr" , where reinforcements from foreign mercenaries arrived the other day, the RF Ministry of Defense reports
 
Hence the use of the word "dream".



The SU's retreat had little to do with the Mujahideen and more to do with their economic condition.



In the scenario I gave, Russia would be connected to Transnistria through Odessa.
Their economic condition is not much better now. They haven't even published figures for 2021 and the ruble exchange rate is fake, Russia is preventing people from swapping rubles for other currencies. A Russian buying online will not get anything like $1 to 80 rubles, more like 160.

Ukraine have said they would happily take Transnistria while retreating if they were forced into that situation, and Moldova would likely support them. At the moment though Russia isn't likely to get anywhere near there and has been losing ground in places like Sumy and their west-most reaches. If the war escalates a lot of people would like to see them lose Kaliningrad too. They are spread very fin, into places they can't possibly defend without destroying themselves completely in the process.
 
That makes no sense, why would they have to replace the Middle East too?

It makes business sense to take away your competitor's business.

The US absolutely can protect them, but there are rules as regards engagement of a country with 2,000 nuclear warheads. In Ukraine Russia's bluff works because it's close enough to their doorstep for there to be doubt that the bluff is fake, in Saudi Arabia that is clearly not the case. Yemen is not the US's job. And, as with Ukraine, only a small section has troubles.

Iran.

You have to play the game tactically, at the moment Putin's Russia is killing itself. If Putin could leave and hang on to power at this stage he would, but he knows his days are numbered if he kills 20,000 Russian soldiers for a loss, by continuing the war he hangs on for longer, but there is a limit to how long he can do that. At this stage he has already lost, he's basically moving his king back and forth for a while before the inevitable checkmate.

Depends on what's finally agreed on the negotiation table.

Take the Chechen Wars, the population of Chechnya is only 1.4m, and it was in Russia, and the Chechens had no help, that took him >13,000 lives and two several year wars and 15 years total plus insurgencies. He's up against 40m here with lots of help. Because of Georgia and the annexation of Crimea he thought Ukraine would be a pushover, but as Arnie would say, "he thought wrong."

The insurgency was too small in Chechnya.

Another effect is that Russia appears properly weak militarily. They lost the battle of Kiev quite embarrassingly and less of their neighbours are likely to be scared of them now. They also lost all their remaining apologists and sympathisers within the EU. They've destroyed themselves militarily, economically and politically in one ill-conceived and unnecessary move.

The issue is this war will give them the opportunity to improve. In any case, Russia was always going to be sanctioned, war or no war.
 
Oh I have a feeling Transnistria will not be in Russian hands in near future and there's nothing the Russians can do about it.
So when is Moldova joining NATO ? Or is there some kind of bargain basement deal in the offing ? A 1+1 deal if you like , as you trailer park folk are familiar with. Ukraine joins NATO & NATO gets Moldava as a member free of charge.
 
Comparison with 25 days ago. All losses up North, only Russian gains are between Kharkiv and Luhansk, small losses around Donetsk-Mariupol area, all losses west of the Dnieper river.

1649606842566.png


1649606884506.png
 

Comment expliquer les échecs de la défense aérienne russe ?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

How can we explain the failures of Russian air defence?

On the 46th day of the war, Ukrainian aircraft are still flying around. A surprising fact for the Russian army, reputed to be excellent in this field and often presented as the second largest air force in the world.

A state of affairs largely in favour of the Russians


More than a month after the start of the war, Russia still does not seem to be in control of the Ukrainian sky. Bayraktar TB2 drones, MiG-29 fighter planes, Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters are still on the Ukrainian side, as well as an air defence system that continues to intercept Russian missiles and fighter planes. However, from a strategic point of view, the neutralisation of the enemy's air defences (SEAD) is the first task to be accomplished in order to dominate the enemy. This should not have been an insurmountable task for a Russian Air Force with hundreds of advanced fighters, strategic bombers and missiles specifically designed to destroy enemy radars. At the beginning of the war, the Russians had 2,678 aircraft compared to 233 for the Ukrainians. The Ukrainian air defence had less than 200 heavy systems (Buk, S-300...), while Russia praised the merits of its equipment, modernised to deal with all types of threats and intercept even drones. On paper, the Ukrainian army seems to be a dwarf compared to the Russian giant, but it is not content to stand up to it and allows itself some real coups. How is this possible?

Russian anti-aircraft systems overrated?

Among the technological gems that Russia boasts about is the S-400 Triumph ground-to-air anti-aircraft system. Considered by many to be the most advanced anti-aircraft system in the world, it is capable of engaging its targets at a range of 400km. Yet the system was unable to stop two missiles fired by Ukraine at Russian airfields in Melirovo and Taganrog, destroying two Su-30s and an Il-76 on the ground. The same happened in Berdyansk, a captured port on the Sea of Azov, where a Russian landing ship was destroyed by a ballistic missile. In all three cases, they were Tochka-U missiles, simple ballistic missiles from the 1970s with a maximum range of 120 km...

Ukraine even allowed itself to carry out Mi-24 helicopter raids in Belgorod, which requires flying over an occupied area of Ukrainian territory, crossing the Russian border, flying at least 40 km in Russian airspace before bombing a fuel depot and then turning back (video opposite). A plan that went off without a hitch and that leaves one wondering about the effectiveness of Russian air defence systems. Ukraine has again this week shared images of its Mi-8s in action and the loss of a Mig-29 was announced (proving that they were still operating), while Russia announced it had air supremacy over Ukraine on 28 February. It claims to have destroyed more Ukrainian helicopters and fighters than the country had before the war...

TB2 drones, a thorn in Russia's side

Russia has the Krasukha-4 electronic warfare system, officially capable of jamming all communications over 300km and reputed to be one of the most aggressive electronic warfare systems on the planet. It was deployed in Armenia to counter Turkish Bayraktar TB2 drones and prevent their pilots from operating them, without success. The same observation can be made in Ukraine, and the capture of at least one Krasukha 4 could considerably reduce the system's effectiveness once it has been dissected by the intelligence services of Ukraine's allies.

In addition to these means of jamming, Russia had also put forward the KUB and Lancet-3 prowling munitions, said to be effective against TB2 drones. The company Zala even presents the destruction of the Turkish drone in its demonstration video... On the ground, Russia explained that it was the obsolescence of the Pantsir air defence systems in Armenia and Libya that explained their poor capacity to face the TB2, while their own modernised Pantsir would be able to cope. This is not the case, and while Bayraktars have been shot down, Turkey delivered 11 more to Ukraine in March alone... Ukraine could continue to make the Russian bear suffer with its drones, so much so that odes in honour of the Bayraktar are widely shared (video opposite), contributing to Ukrainian propaganda.

Effective Ukrainian air systems

Another reason for the difficulties of Russian air defence is the underestimation of Ukrainian equipment. Indeed, the Ukrainian army had a substantial arsenal of air defence systems, including the S-300 with a range of up to 120km, the DK12 Kub with a range of 24km, the Buk-M1 with a range of 45km, as well as many other theatre anti-aircraft systems. Russia did not commit enough force against these systems, announcing the success of its SEAD missions early on before suffering further losses and then releasing videos of fighters equipped with anti-radar missiles again. The Ukrainian army is receiving increased support from Western countries, which continue to deliver weapons. The delivery of thousands of light surface-to-air missiles began before the war and continues, with the supply of ever more sophisticated means such as the Starstreak portable system produced by Thales UK, with the documented loss of at least one Russian Mi-28 helicopter (see our dedicated article).

As of 20 March, more than 70 Russian aircraft have been shot down through images shared on social media alone, including 9 Su-25, 4 Su-30SM, 5 Su-34 and 1 Su-35... Other aircraft have been shot down and videos are available of them falling, but without formal identification they are not counted. The loss of aircraft known as "4.5+ generation" is explained by their obligation to fly at low altitude to try to fire unguided ammunition, as a high altitude drop has no chance of hitting its target. This is a dangerous descent because it puts the aircraft within range of manpads, a practice that has completely disappeared in Western countries. Although this may seem like a drop in the bucket of available Russian aircraft, the Ukrainians have proven that they can defend themselves against the so-called powerful Russian air force, reducing its ability to act on the territory.

Western intelligence support.

The Ukrainian army would certainly not be as effective without the help of the intelligence services of allied countries, first and foremost the United States. Many countries have deployed ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) assets with overflights of Ukraine's neighbours, the unstated aim being to provide intelligence to the Ukrainians. NATO operates AWACS (Airborne Warning and Command System) aircraft such as the Boeing E-3 Sentry and the E-8 JSTARS, as well as RQ-4 Global Hawk drones that can fly for up to 32 hours. There are also KC6135 Stratotanker tankers. While taking care not to cross the Ukrainian border, they scan the country's interior and obtain tactical information that they share with Ukraine, in particular the take-off of Russian fighter planes, the operating times of Russian radars, the definition of the cones under which Ukrainian aircraft can fly undetected. Similarly, the presence or not of Russian AWACS, the Ilyushin A-50s, is a determining factor for conducting raids. In terms of aerial intelligence, Russia is clearly lagging behind, with only a small volume of Ilyushin and Beriev A-50 aircraft developed during the Soviet era, some fifteen of each model. In comparison, the US has more than a hundred heavy radar aircraft and 170 dedicated airborne aircraft (mainly E-2C Hawkeye). The Russian aircraft apparently only operate for a few hours and do not ensure a permanent air presence, leaving slots available for the Ukrainians to take off the few remaining air assets.

The record is not good for the Russian Army. The failure of the SEAD and the Russian air force, although full of promise, can be explained by a combination of these elements:
  • anti-aircraft systems that are experiencing serious failures,
  • a Ukrainian army better equipped and resilient than estimated,
  • a Russian inability to destroy all Ukrainian defensive and offensive means despite a month and a half of war,
  • the reinforcement of light and efficient defence systems by donations from Western countries,
  • intelligence support from Ukraine's allies.
The war is not over, however, and Moscow has recently deployed more drones, such as the Forpost-R and Orlan-10, in order to adapt to its enemy and put less powerful equipment on the ground, but for which losses are acceptable (destruction of an Orlan-10 thanks to a Starstrek missile in the image opposite, a drone impossible to destroy except with these laser-guided systems). It remains to be seen whether it will be more effective if it limits itself to actions in the Donbass, the only realistic objective that Russia is now trying to achieve.

We should know in time based on whatever sortie rate figures are released for both sides.

The lack of jets on the Ukrainian side is a problem because the Mig-29s and Su-27s are not capable of accurate surface strike. And they have only a handful of jets that can do it, less than a squadron each of Su-24 and Su-25.

So they are probably relying on their short and medium range air defences to do the job instead of using fighters, meant to be used in a possible NATO intervention.

The story behind the S-400 will be interesting, if ever revealed. Either not used at all or failed. I am leaning on the former because even a failed intercept would still see failed launches.
NSFW !!

Novotashkovsky — LPR troops discover Ukrainian forces dumped their dead soldiers at a garbage dump:


Obviously propaganda from the Russian side.
 
It makes business sense to take away your competitor's business.



Iran.



Depends on what's finally agreed on the negotiation table.



The insurgency was too small in Chechnya.



The issue is this war will give them the opportunity to improve. In any case, Russia was always going to be sanctioned, war or no war.
We're not interested in making enemies in the Middle East.

What about Iran, yes they're supporting Houthi rebels. We supply Saudi Arabia with weapons.

I think that table is done. Putin should have made a deal when he was still advancing on Kiev. Right now Ukraine will only be content when Russia is out of Crimea and the Donbass, i.e. completely gone. And then they will join NATO, and a completely demoralised Russia won't be able to do jack shit about it.

Yes, but it still took them ages. In Ukraine they have no chance.

That simply isn't the case, France and particularly Germany had held back. They were also still happily buying his oil and gas. Putin's damage to Russia is unbelievable. It would have been less damaging in the long run to have set off a Tsar bomb in the middle of Moscow rather than adopting this war.
 
Their economic condition is not much better now. They haven't even published figures for 2021 and the ruble exchange rate is fake, Russia is preventing people from swapping rubles for other currencies. A Russian buying online will not get anything like $1 to 80 rubles, more like 160.

Can't compare exchange rate to spot market prices. The value is weaker in the spot market because the currency has been very volatile. Larger, long term deals will be using the more stable exchange rate over an average period of time, like a year.

Ukraine have said they would happily take Transnistria while retreating if they were forced into that situation, and Moldova would likely support them. At the moment though Russia isn't likely to get anywhere near there and has been losing ground in places like Sumy and their west-most reaches. If the war escalates a lot of people would like to see them lose Kaliningrad too. They are spread very fin, into places they can't possibly defend without destroying themselves completely in the process.

Yeah, but you're talking about today, and this war. The Caspian Report, and my post in reference to it, is looking at the situation long term. Like the end of a second war or a third war will give us the picture over the next 10 years. There's no rule saying the Russians won't go back into Ukraine again.
 

There are no scheduled elections around the corner in UK nor is there any likelihood of an FTA with Ukraine yet BJ is there. Cashing in to boost his popularity among the drinking classes I expect , eh Paddy ? @BMD
 
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Oh I have a feeling Transnistria will not be in Russian hands in near future and there's nothing the Russians can do about it.

The Moldovans have their priorities straight. They have decided to stay neutral and have no interest in joining NATO. Basically what was expected of Ukraine too.
 
We're not interested in making enemies in the Middle East.

Depends on the US.

What about Iran, yes they're supporting Houthi rebels. We supply Saudi Arabia with weapons.

They want security from an Iranian invasion. Not just Russia.

I think that table is done. Putin should have made a deal when he was still advancing on Kiev. Right now Ukraine will only be content when Russia is out of Crimea and the Donbass, i.e. completely gone. And then they will join NATO, and a completely demoralised Russia won't be able to do jack shit about it.

If a deal does not happen, the war will happen again. This time with a more cruel Russia, as was the case in Chechnya.

Yes, but it still took them ages. In Ukraine they have no chance.

All insurgencies take ages.

That simply isn't the case, France and particularly Germany had held back. They were also still happily buying his oil and gas. Putin's damage to Russia is unbelievable. It would have been less damaging in the long run to have set off a Tsar bomb in the middle of Moscow rather than adopting this war.

What's Russia improving itself has anything to do with France or Germany?

Interesting that you have assessed their damage yourself, when there's nothing official about it from anywhere.