Ukraine - Russia Conflict
- Thread starter randomradio
- Start date
At the time, we were. Then Russian helped us back in.
As for the rest, each incident had its own nuances. Armenia wasn't attacked, a disputed region was attacked, so it didn't trigger CSTO's defence clauses, for example.
It was a US-led initiative.
India’s Covid calamity exposes weakest link in US-led ‘Quad’ alliance
New Delhi virus response undermines its coalition with America, Japan and Australia to resist China
US and Asia allies launch major vaccine drive to counter China
The 1bn Covid jabs will be funded by US and Japan, made in India and distributed by Australia
Under the deal, the US and Japan will finance production of the vaccine in India, while Australia will help to distribute the jabs across south-east Asia.
India simply latched on to the plan by also offering their own.
No, it's not. The Russians are a militarily superior power, so we are the ones adjusting about some things. And we get concessions elsewhere in return. It's a complementary relationship. My world view is India-centric.
Same as how I'm more India-centric about Russia winning the war in Ukraine. If the opposite was more favourable, then yeah, I'd like Ukraine to win. It's no different from India supporting Pakistan in a cricket match, so their victory against New Zealand would mean India enters the finals with Australia, or New Zealand plays Australia. It doesn't mean we are suddenly Pakistani supporters.
Similarly, we would like to see Russia at a disadvantage with China so they would depend more on India. The US plays the same game, the more we lose against China, the more dependent we become on the US.
It's basically a love triangle meets a Mexican standoff. And this is why India likes to do things bilaterally.
The engine ToT is related to AMCA's engine. It's about who gets AMCA's engine.
America's played a hand via the F414, and the French are playing their hand via Rafale. The Americans decided to offer more ToT for 414 after France announced that they will provide 100% ToT for Rafale's engine via MRFA. So now both are almost on the same footing, with the French still with an advantage for the AMCA deal.
To become signatories to the pacts back then, India had to sign the NPT, CTBT, and join a bunch of multilateral groups, like MTCR, NSG etc. The US agreed to help India get into the groups, while withdrawing from their position on NPT and CTBT. This happened under Bush via the 123 Agreement. Then, over the following decade, we joined most of the groups except NSG, 'cause of China. The US had said they will treat India on par with NATO if India joined all the groups, but once China became a thorn on our sides, the US decided to remove NSG from the agreement as well. This is how we now have NATO status. It's just taken this long since Bush. Obama gave India an MDP status unique to India just before he left office, ie Dec 2016. And then Trump pushed that forward and the NATO-equivalent status become official only in 2020 after the pandemic hit. So this has been in the works since the Bush Administration. It's just taken this long.
That's exactly what the US hopes India becomes.
A dependent that will get their services "via Mutual Defence anyway".
Pacific. From Vladivostok.
That's irrelevant. We are not looking at a military alliance with Russia, neither are we with the West.
Russia will supply to India because, firstly, it's in their interest, and secondly, the West will also supply to India.
The US wants India as a counterweight to China. India wants Russia as a counterweight to US and China and vice versa. That's how the system works.
If India becomes enemies with Russia, then we automatically become subservient to the US 'cause we no longer have a counterweight. We can't use the US as a counterweight on our own because we have no real power. And it will stay this way for the next 15-20 years, basically our most important period. This period is when we will make or break as a country.
We need to finish development of our half first. It's like saying there's no work being carried out in FICV 'cause there's no tender out. The fact is research has been going on for half a decade now.
We don't plan on acting against them and vice versa. You are pushing for India to act against them instead.
You don't get it, do you? Pretty much everywhere, what we want, they want and what they want, we want.
There isn't a partnership between two major powers that's more closely aligned than the one between India and Russia.
Sure. But Navic's still WIP, that's a fact.
While Pinaka uses GPS, Agni uses GLONASS and GPS and Navic.
Remove GLONASS support and the GPS support will disappear too. THen we are stuck nly with Navic, which doesn't cover the entire range of the Agni V.
It's all peanuts. The fact is pretty much all that 2 million bpd supplied by Russia ends up in Indian refineries. And, as I said, if Europe stops buying, someone else will, even Pakistan.
We are not buying additional oil, we only have so much refinining capacity. Our total capacity is 5 million bpd and we domestically consume about 4.2m bpd. Only 800k bpd is exported, out of which Europe gets 360k bpd. So, out of 5m, we are getting 2m from Russia. If we assume 100% of our exports consists of Russian grade oil, then that's still 1.2m bpd consumed domestically.
Yeah, China screwed up its demographics, but it's still better than Japan. It doesn't make sense for China to supply to Russia for 2 reasons. One, it doesn't make sense, the weaker Russia is, the more dependent Russia becomes. It's the same advantage we get. Two, the Russians don't really need it.
Nope, that's how it works. It's to buy time during the post-war reconstruction. They will give civilian contracts in the Donbas to China, and they will supply weapons to India. A lot of defence deals are being lined up with India, and the Russians have started working on making india less dependent on Russian supplies by moving factories to India.
Some things we will work with the West, some we will with Russia. And we need both if we are to get tech from either.
What you're talking about is supplying weapons to kill Russians. It's not even close to being the same.
When have they supplied to an enemy country during war? Kargil?
Um, no. The Russians see no practical difference between QUAD & AUKUS - they call both of them Asian NATO.
US Plans To Integrate Quad AUKUS Into NATO, Says Russia
During his ongoing visit to India, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said in New Delhi that the West, particularly the US, is creating a ‘front’ to contain China.news.abplive.com
Which is surprising because QUAD is indeed not a military bloc unlike AUKUS. Equating the two even though they are different was the Chinese line. The Russians have adopted the same line.
You must understand that Russia has no independent view on the Pacific. Their view is the same as China's - which means it's not the same as ours.
I don't know if you know this, but Russia openly opposed the very concept of the Indo-Pacific (just like China did). They wanted the Asia-Pacific to be separate from the Indian Ocean. Suits PRC just fine, as they can bully their eastern & western theatres independently without their enemies being able to help each other.
The US adopted the worldview which was more advantageous for us - the PACOM was rephrased as INDOPACOM purely because of India. The US wanted to signal bringing all enemies of China under one roof.
India-Russia views are the same in the Indo-Pacific. We also don't see the QUAD as a military alliance.
What they are saying is the US wants to drag India into an Asian NATO against India's wishes. That's what they said.
Unless Russia and China become a full-fledged military alliance, that won't happen. And Russia and China becoming military allies at this point in time is pretty much zero.
If NATO attacks Russia, what's more likely is China will also attack Russia from the other side. The Russians will be really lucky if the Chinese only decide to sit out, and that's where they see common ground. You can say that at best Russia and China have a non-aggression pact with each other, maybe not even that.
It's the opposite of optimism, they have a track record of doing it. You are the one being optimistic thinking we will supply weapons to kill Russians and still have relations with them.
Look, you have given absolutely zero arguments in favour of arming Ukraine. Not even one. And you are just using wrong information or making up your own scenarios to fit your points. And you have extremely unrealistic expectations from the West in terms of tech transfer.
Some Indian refiners plan on buying Russian refined fuel for the domestic market and exporting more of their own refined fuel for more monies.
Indian refiners may buy Russian fuel, export own
Russia has already become the top supplier of crude to India, accounting for 28% of India's crude imports, up from less than 1% in 2021. India's imports of Russian refined products have also risen to record levels in recent months, though mostly limited to fuel oil. They may soon expand to...
Of course, it would require deep discounts from Russia, as mentioned in the article.
Weird article. Most of Russia's main air defences are still in Russia. The stuff in Ukraine is pretty old and mostly army stuff.
Anyway, enough has been said about the F-16, now it has to undergo the baptism of fire. The air fight will be interesting. It will be very enlightening from India's perspective, especially with MRFA round the corner. I hope the US sends in F-15Cs too, they are all old enough to be spent in war. I'd definitely like to see the M2000, Rafale and Typhoon in Ukraine as well.
Who knows? This year, F-16s and M2000s. Next, Rafales and Typhoons. Maybe the F-35A the year after. Then F-22... One can dream.
Only if you're on crack.
Won't be enough, their oil and gas revenue is down 49% this year.Some Indian refiners plan on buying Russian refined fuel for the domestic market and exporting more of their own refined fuel for more monies.
Indian refiners may buy Russian fuel, export own
Russia has already become the top supplier of crude to India, accounting for 28% of India's crude imports, up from less than 1% in 2021. India's imports of Russian refined products have also risen to record levels in recent months, though mostly limited to fuel oil. They may soon expand to...economictimes.indiatimes.com
Of course, it would require deep discounts from Russia, as mentioned in the article.
What do you think of Modi's thinking on Russia - Ukraine war?At the time, we were. Then Russian helped us back in.
As for the rest, each incident had its own nuances. Armenia wasn't attacked, a disputed region was attacked, so it didn't trigger CSTO's defence clauses, for example.
It was a US-led initiative.
Washington had spearheaded a Quad vaccine initiative that was meant to entail India producing jabs for south-east Asia with financial and logistical support from Washington, Canberra and Tokyo.India’s Covid calamity exposes weakest link in US-led ‘Quad’ alliance
New Delhi virus response undermines its coalition with America, Japan and Australia to resist Chinawww.ft.com
The US has crafted a plan with Japan, India and Australia to provide 1bn doses of Johnson & Johnson’s Covid-19 vaccine to south-east Asian nations in an effort to counter Chinese influence in the Indo-Pacific region.US and Asia allies launch major vaccine drive to counter China
The 1bn Covid jabs will be funded by US and Japan, made in India and distributed by Australia
Under the deal, the US and Japan will finance production of the vaccine in India, while Australia will help to distribute the jabs across south-east Asia.
India simply latched on to the plan by also offering their own.
No, it's not. The Russians are a militarily superior power, so we are the ones adjusting about some things. And we get concessions elsewhere in return. It's a complementary relationship. My world view is India-centric.
Same as how I'm more India-centric about Russia winning the war in Ukraine. If the opposite was more favourable, then yeah, I'd like Ukraine to win. It's no different from India supporting Pakistan in a cricket match, so their victory against New Zealand would mean India enters the finals with Australia, or New Zealand plays Australia. It doesn't mean we are suddenly Pakistani supporters.
Similarly, we would like to see Russia at a disadvantage with China so they would depend more on India. The US plays the same game, the more we lose against China, the more dependent we become on the US.
It's basically a love triangle meets a Mexican standoff. And this is why India likes to do things bilaterally.
The engine ToT is related to AMCA's engine. It's about who gets AMCA's engine.
America's played a hand via the F414, and the French are playing their hand via Rafale. The Americans decided to offer more ToT for 414 after France announced that they will provide 100% ToT for Rafale's engine via MRFA. So now both are almost on the same footing, with the French still with an advantage for the AMCA deal.
To become signatories to the pacts back then, India had to sign the NPT, CTBT, and join a bunch of multilateral groups, like MTCR, NSG etc. The US agreed to help India get into the groups, while withdrawing from their position on NPT and CTBT. This happened under Bush via the 123 Agreement. Then, over the following decade, we joined most of the groups except NSG, 'cause of China. The US had said they will treat India on par with NATO if India joined all the groups, but once China became a thorn on our sides, the US decided to remove NSG from the agreement as well. This is how we now have NATO status. It's just taken this long since Bush. Obama gave India an MDP status unique to India just before he left office, ie Dec 2016. And then Trump pushed that forward and the NATO-equivalent status become official only in 2020 after the pandemic hit. So this has been in the works since the Bush Administration. It's just taken this long.
That's exactly what the US hopes India becomes.
A dependent that will get their services "via Mutual Defence anyway".
Pacific. From Vladivostok.
That's irrelevant. We are not looking at a military alliance with Russia, neither are we with the West.
Russia will supply to India because, firstly, it's in their interest, and secondly, the West will also supply to India.
The US wants India as a counterweight to China. India wants Russia as a counterweight to US and China and vice versa. That's how the system works.
If India becomes enemies with Russia, then we automatically become subservient to the US 'cause we no longer have a counterweight. We can't use the US as a counterweight on our own because we have no real power. And it will stay this way for the next 15-20 years, basically our most important period. This period is when we will make or break as a country.
We need to finish development of our half first. It's like saying there's no work being carried out in FICV 'cause there's no tender out. The fact is research has been going on for half a decade now.
We don't plan on acting against them and vice versa. You are pushing for India to act against them instead.
You don't get it, do you? Pretty much everywhere, what we want, they want and what they want, we want.
There isn't a partnership between two major powers that's more closely aligned than the one between India and Russia.
Sure. But Navic's still WIP, that's a fact.
While Pinaka uses GPS, Agni uses GLONASS and GPS and Navic.
Remove GLONASS support and the GPS support will disappear too. THen we are stuck nly with Navic, which doesn't cover the entire range of the Agni V.
It's all peanuts. The fact is pretty much all that 2 million bpd supplied by Russia ends up in Indian refineries. And, as I said, if Europe stops buying, someone else will, even Pakistan.
We are not buying additional oil, we only have so much refinining capacity. Our total capacity is 5 million bpd and we domestically consume about 4.2m bpd. Only 800k bpd is exported, out of which Europe gets 360k bpd. So, out of 5m, we are getting 2m from Russia. If we assume 100% of our exports consists of Russian grade oil, then that's still 1.2m bpd consumed domestically.
Yeah, China screwed up its demographics, but it's still better than Japan. It doesn't make sense for China to supply to Russia for 2 reasons. One, it doesn't make sense, the weaker Russia is, the more dependent Russia becomes. It's the same advantage we get. Two, the Russians don't really need it.
Nope, that's how it works. It's to buy time during the post-war reconstruction. They will give civilian contracts in the Donbas to China, and they will supply weapons to India. A lot of defence deals are being lined up with India, and the Russians have started working on making india less dependent on Russian supplies by moving factories to India.
Some things we will work with the West, some we will with Russia. And we need both if we are to get tech from either.
What you're talking about is supplying weapons to kill Russians. It's not even close to being the same.
When have they supplied to an enemy country during war? Kargil?
India-Russia views are the same in the Indo-Pacific. We also don't see the QUAD as a military alliance.
What they are saying is the US wants to drag India into an Asian NATO against India's wishes. That's what they said.
Unless Russia and China become a full-fledged military alliance, that won't happen. And Russia and China becoming military allies at this point in time is pretty much zero.
If NATO attacks Russia, what's more likely is China will also attack Russia from the other side. The Russians will be really lucky if the Chinese only decide to sit out, and that's where they see common ground. You can say that at best Russia and China have a non-aggression pact with each other, maybe not even that.
It's the opposite of optimism, they have a track record of doing it. You are the one being optimistic thinking we will supply weapons to kill Russians and still have relations with them.
Look, you have given absolutely zero arguments in favour of arming Ukraine. Not even one. And you are just using wrong information or making up your own scenarios to fit your points. And you have extremely unrealistic expectations from the West in terms of tech transfer.
To be Honest, I hope we will never abandon our Quest for "Strategic Autonomy", No matter how much the western press dances upon us......
I really don't want us to become someone like UK, Japan, Australia. Etc.
I hope Modi doesn't get suckered into the wooing by west. We shouldn't distance ourself from Russia....
- The war was needed for the oligarchs who run the Russian Federation. The war was needed to install Medvedchuk as President of Ukraine. Zelensky was ready to negotiate. All that had to be done was to get off Olympus and talk to Zelensky
- 60 Leopards destroyed is a lie. All we destroyed was 2 Leopards + a few Bradleys.
- Russian army is retreating in the Zaporizhzhia and Kherson direction. Ukrainian Army push through the Russian army.
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbas for 8 years, but only exchanged fire with Russian positions.
- All these years, Donbas was stolen, in particular by employees of the president's administration.
- Ukraine not intend to attack Russia with NATO blocs, the Ministry of Defense of Russia is deceiving the public and the president.
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