Wiser after Balakot, India orders missiles worth $700 million from Russia

[smestarz]

There was a proposal but it never took off. If we had them, we would have surely used them on 27th or thereafter.

I believe IAF has Novator, but its mainly and perhaps purely an Anti AWACS weapon, I doubt if its highly maneuverable to take down the likes of F-16, but surely it can take down AWACS which are not that maneuverable.
Also its a special missile thats not always used to carry around.
Also how exactly do we have the capability to have a lock on at 400 kms thats my doubt. Su-30 MKI does not have the radar to target using this missile. I guess its missile for special occassion for not-so-maneuverable AWACS

 

[vstol Jockey]

I believe IAF has Novator, but its mainly and perhaps purely an Anti AWACS weapon, I doubt if its highly maneuverable to take down the likes of F-16, but surely it can take down AWACS which are not that maneuverable.
Also its a special missile thats not always used to carry around.
Also how exactly do we have the capability to have a lock on at 400 kms thats my doubt. Su-30 MKI does not have the radar to target using this missile. I guess its missile for special occassion for not-so-maneuverable AWACS

Su-30MKI has that kind of range in its radar to guide a missile on a target as far away as 400Kms. AWACS have huge RCS.

 

[Austerlitz]

I had posted about this a few days back. We have already recieved a 100 of them as emergency supply.

Well it seems we have messed up completely.We have gone and bought around 1000 of r73 and r27.Why the hell would we buy a semi active homing obsolete r27? IAF has gone mad unless its the long range active variant.
Where are the rvvmd and rvvsd you spoke of?Forget K77.This deal looks very bad from the outside.Almost self sabotage.How the hell is r27 supposed to counter amraam?
We have to wait for meteor now.IAF has lost the plot here.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Well it seems we have messed up completely.We have gone and bought around 1000 of r73 and r27.Why the hell would we buy a semi active homing obsolete r27? IAF has gone mad unless its the long range active variant.
Where are the rvvmd and rvvsd you spoke of?Forget K77.This deal looks very bad from the outside.Almost self sabotage.How the hell is r27 supposed to counter amraam?
We have to wait for meteor now.IAF has lost the plot here.

No, we did not. IAF is Getting R-27 with range of AMRAAM-D. In addition we have recieved R-37s also. for your information, in Russian AF, R-27 is the main BVRAAM for SU-30s

 

[Arvind]

No, we did not. IAF is Getting R-27 with range of AMRAAM-D. In addition we have recieved R-37s also. for your information, in Russian AF, R-27 is the main BVRAAM for SU-30s

So the whole argument of restricted ROE on that day was hogwash. Capability, or lack of it, was the whole issue.

 

[Austerlitz]

No, we did not. IAF is Getting R-27 with range of AMRAAM-D. In addition we have recieved R-37s also. for your information, in Russian AF, R-27 is the main BVRAAM for SU-30s

So we are buying the active R27EA with 130km plus range? Are you sure ..makes me feel better though.But it also raises the question why IAF didnt acquire this version earlier when russians themselves were using it.

 

[vstol Jockey]

So the whole argument of restricted ROE on that day was hogwash. Capability, or lack of it, was the whole issue.

The initial part of the air combat had ROE restrictions. It was for this reason that when the intentions of PAF formations became clear that they were there to attack our formations, Mig-21s were quickly launched but in the meantime, they fired AMRAAM from Dmax. This took SU-30MKIs by surprise. They were at lower altitude and did not get the firing solution to engage high flying F-16s. Every ROE changes to trigger free the moment you are attacked directly. After that there are no rules restricting you. IAF waited for them to cross LOC but they chose to fire from within their territory. The ROE at that time was that you will not target an aircraft flying within its own airspace. This was broken by PAF.

 

[Arvind]

So we are buying the active R27EA with 130km plus range? Are you sure ..makes me feel better though.But it also raises the question why IAF didnt acquire this version earlier when russians themselves were using it.

Perhaps they thought US wont let Pakistan use F-16.

 

[vstol Jockey]

So we are buying the active R27EA with 130km plus range? Are you sure ..makes me feel better though.But it also raises the question why IAF didnt acquire this version earlier when russians themselves were using it.

We are replacing the older R-27s with the newer longer ranged R-27s and same is true about R-77 and R-73. The present lot was bought in 2007-08. The shelf life of most russian missiles is just about 10 yrs.

 

[Austerlitz]

Perhaps they thought US wont let Pakistan use F-16.

Thats a lame excuse if i ever heard one.

 

[Austerlitz]

We are replacing the older R-27s with the newer longer ranged R-27s and same is true about R-77 and R-73. The present lot was bought in 2007-08. The shelf life of most russian missiles is just about 10 yrs.

Ah ok.So r-77-1 will come or k77m to replace older r77? Or both?
When you say we recieved r37 are you talking about new purchases of r37m?Same missile used on mig31 foxhound?That would be an excellent awacs killer.
Thank you for the clarification .

 

[vstol Jockey]

Ah ok.So r-77-1 will come or k77m to replace older r77? Or both?
When you say we recieved r37 are you talking about new purchases of r37m?Same missile used on mig31 foxhound?That would be an excellent awacs killer.
Thank you for the clarification .

Yes we are buying the latest and top of the line variants only. R-37s have already been recieved and tested from Su-30MKI. It was for this reason I had posted that area north of Lahore parallel is now out of bounds for PAF HVTs like refuelers and AWACS. This means we can now effectively finish them off in POK. They wont have the support of AWACS.
The width of Pakistan north of Lahore is less than 300KMS.

 

[Arvind]

Thats a lame excuse if i ever heard one.

Sarcasm. What else you think? lol

But who knows it could be the thought of IAF planners.

 

[Arvind]

The initial part of the air combat had ROE restrictions. It was for this reason that when the intentions of PAF formations became clear that they were there to attack our formations, Mig-21s were quickly launched but in the meantime, they fired AMRAAM from Dmax. This took SU-30MKIs by surprise. They were at lower altitude and did not get the firing solution to engage high flying F-16s. Every ROE changes to trigger free the moment you are attacked directly. After that there are no rules restricting you. IAF waited for them to cross LOC but they chose to fire from within their territory. The ROE at that time was that you will not target an aircraft flying within its own airspace. This was broken by PAF.

Quite interesting knowing a day before IAF ingress-ed into Pakistan and bombed their land but expected PAF not to fire from their airspace.

 

[Bali78]

Quite interesting knowing a day before IAF ingress-ed into Pakistan and bombed their land but expected PAF not to fire from their airspace.

IAF top brass must be smoking some top grade shit !!

 

[RATHORE]

We are replacing the older R-27s with the newer longer ranged R-27s and same is true about R-77 and R-73. The present lot was bought in 2007-08. The shelf life of most russian missiles is just about 10 yrs.

2 Questions:

1) Which missiles does IAF currently possess, which can be classified as "AWACS-Killers" - other than R-37's?
2) Does IAF have any BVR missiles for fighter engagements which outrange Pakistan's AIM-120C (105 km)?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Quite interesting knowing a day before IAF ingress-ed into Pakistan and bombed their land but expected PAF not to fire from their airspace.

IAF top brass must be smoking some top grade shit !!

We had expected the counter attack and that is why we had CAP in place. But while we expected them to enter our airspace, they chose to fire from within their airspace which was unexpected.
The radar controllers picked up all these formations and the tactical picture and the intentions became clear in no time. IAF scrambled Mig-21s for this very reason. But they introduced a thing to the situation and that was firing BVRAAMs from within their territory. The after effect of this stupidity was that they never came close to LOC after that fearing counter attacks by IAF using same tactics.

 

[Arvind]

We had expected the counter attack and that is why we had CAP in place. But while we expected them to enter our airspace, they chose to fire from within their airspace which was unexpected.

Sir the question is - why it was unexpected and whose assumption it was that enemy will play according to our rule book?

Why we were not ready for all eventualities when we decided a day earlier to bomb Pakistan inside their territory?

Was it an incompetency in planning or execution?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Sir the question is - why it was unexpected and whose assumption it was that enemy will play according to our rule book?

Why we were not ready for all eventualities when we decided a day earlier to bomb Pakistan inside their territory?

Was it an incompetency in planning or execution?

No. It not incompetency. But it was certainly an error of judgement given the history of treachery of muslims all over the world. IAF certainly did not expect that PAF will fire from within their territory. You must have read my posts on other threads on this forum. I am against showing anykind of mercy to any muslim of the world. They just can't be trusted. A nation like Pakistan does not deserve grace even in death.
Most of the times, we Indians have hidden our failures under the garb of being a professional Armed force which goes by the book. Anyone who believes this must get his brain checked.
In Kargil, PA asked for ceasefire to withdraw and what did they do? they planted plastic mines during that period. AND IA says they are professional army and do not fire on retreating enemy. My bloody foot.
Wasn't Prithvi Chauhan a similar stupid? Don't we all know what happened to him? Have we learnt any lessons from history?

 

[Arvind]

No. It not incompetency. But it was certainly an error of judgement given the history of treachery of muslims all over the world. IAF certainly did not expect that PAF will fire from within their territory. You must have read my posts on other threads on this forum. I am against showing anykind of mercy to any muslim of the world. They just can't be trusted. A nation like Pakistan does not deserve grace even in death.

Sir with due respect, what kind of explanation is this? Where treachery comes into picture in a hostile environment where enemy is supposed to use all tactical and strategic means to retaliate in an effective manner.

Do you mean use of all stand off weapon is treachery? What is the purpose of having 100Km + BVR in your arsenal and still has to go close to enemy aircrafts?

Most of the times, we Indians have hidden our failures under the garb of being a professional Armed force which goes by the book. Anyone who believes this must get his brain checked.

I want to read that book which disallow use of BVR from own territory to target enemy fighter planes which a day before ingressed and did an act of war.

In Kargil, PA asked for ceasefire to withdraw and what did they do? they planted plastic mines during that period. AND IA says they are professional army and do not fire on retreating enemy. My bloody foot.
Wasn't Prithvi Chauhan a similar stupid? Don't we all know what happened to him? Have we learnt any lessons from history?

Perhaps its time to stop shielding incompetency behind "being a nice guy". Armies are supposed to be ruthless, and what kind of profesionalism they show if they dont learn by their own mistakes?