Lol. Possibly. But I don't think the Australians will stick to their schedule. But they have given themselves plenty of time.
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
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Lol. Possibly. But I don't think the Australians will stick to their schedule. But they have given themselves plenty of time.
LOL.
HAL requires 2.7 more man labour hours to produce the Rafale than in France.....
And HAL requires Dassault to gave a full warranty to the planes built in India without a right to see what happend on the line and in the factory. LM, Boeing, SAAB, Eurofighter would have refused the same manner.
Please, do so cleaning inside HAL and may be it will be possible to work together.
HAL, NIC, Indian Statistical Institute, etc have recruited idiots on the basis of marks and no practical experience from the colleges for engineering projects. Foolish govt officers which are majority in number although not all, due to ego problems recruit low grade technicians from the market. That's how India is run and that's why many bright minds are leaving India.
There will be a day when bright minds in India will be working for chinese firms in the coming future and China is hiring many talented Indians as well.
This is why young people highly motivated don't want to reside in India. And this is why delays in projects, procurement , third grade quality control is happening. Food quality management is worst in India. If you ever visit India, don't buy oil or don't et oiled food. 70% of edible Oil what you get in cities is adulterated and food quality control officers are corrupt to neck. This is why we have so many heart and hypertension patients.
I give you an re-created example of India's top department in cyber space it's known as NIC.
The idiots there were fooling a government employ on some purchases in a ministry on some optical fiber lines and telling him to rather go for 5G than optical fiber for intranet. Then he inquired about such from a top IT and electronic firms in India they simply overruled him and said its costly and will take years to come, more over good hackers can hack into it and then there will be maintenance and power issues all the time.
Later he bashed those NIC guys and asked about their qualification. He checked the recruitment and they were recruited on the base of stupid exam and a very basic and unessential interview. The same guys had few junior employs who warned them not to mention about 5G as it will create embarrassment. But they didn't listen to those young boys.
Now those young boys are in US
And we call it brain drain.
The Pakistani affair came to light after a bombing in the port of Karachi in 2002 killed 11 French naval engineers working on a submarine project.
At first the attack was blamed on al-Qaeda, but investigating judges suspected the Pakistani security forces had taken revenge for the termination of secret commissions on the sale of three submarines. Jacques Chirac, who died last year, cancelled the payments when he beat Mr Balladur to the presidency.
The commissions were paid by state-owned French shipbuilder DCN-I — now Naval Group — to intermediaries in 1994.
en.wikipedia.org
At first the attack was blamed on al-Qaeda, but investigating judges suspected the Pakistani security forces had taken revenge for the termination of secret commissions on the sale of three submarines. Jacques Chirac, who died last year, cancelled the payments when he beat Mr Balladur to the presidency.
The commissions were paid by state-owned French shipbuilder DCN-I — now Naval Group — to intermediaries in 1994.
Karachi affair - Wikipedia
In France at least one collaborater of the then prime minister is sentenced to jail. It's a yesterday news.The Pakistani affair came to light after a bombing in the port of Karachi in 2002 killed 11 French naval engineers working on a submarine project.
At first the attack was blamed on al-Qaeda, but investigating judges suspected the Pakistani security forces had taken revenge for the termination of secret commissions on the sale of three submarines. Jacques Chirac, who died last year, cancelled the payments when he beat Mr Balladur to the presidency.
The commissions were paid by state-owned French shipbuilder DCN-I — now Naval Group — to intermediaries in 1994.
Karachi affair - Wikipedia
Submarine news: Rs 42k crore stealth submarine plan to finally kick off | India News - Times of India
India News: India is now finally getting set to issue the formal tender for the long-pending over Rs 42,000 crore project to make six new-generation stealth subma
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
@Gautam
with scorpene production is about to end, do u think L&T has any chance to bag these order.?
without additional scorpene order s mazagon dock will become idle only right?
so it's already a fixed match.
mazagon dock will win with French subs.
will the orders be broken and given to both? Is it possible with small orders?
with scorpene production is about to end, do u think L&T has any chance to bag these order.?
without additional scorpene order s mazagon dock will become idle only right?
so it's already a fixed match.
mazagon dock will win with French subs.
will the orders be broken and given to both? Is it possible with small orders?
We would need to replace the German SSKs and the Kilos at a later date. Having 2 production line would be great but, for it to be sustainable orders must keep flowing.
From Navy's logistical standpoint going for an enlarged Scorpene is the best option. Scorpene's manufacturing line at MDL has managed to localise a lot of the sub systems, a Scorpene based sub for P-75I will surely bring enhanced levels of indegenisation. After the P-75I there is the P-76 project which seeks to design and build the complete SSK in India.
This kind of an evolutionary approach favors familiarity of design over complexity of tech. Which isn't a bad thing for a first time project. You are right, Scorpene based design has a massive leg up. Also of all the participating nations our relation is best with France. So DNCS/Naval System does have major advantages over others and they are likely to win except for the off chance of some untimely data leak or excessive pricing.
Splitting the orders would have made more sense if the order was larger. 6 seems a little too less for that. But then the navy is getting 7 Nilgiri class frigates and have split the order to 2 separate dockyard. So who knows.
I remember L&T proposing their own small sized submarine to the Navy, wonder what happened to that.
Understand this thing. Two separate Production lines for SSK cannot survive in India with just 18 SSKs planned, out of which 6 are almost done .
MDL took years to train it's manpower. Once that is lost , it's lost.
That's why I feel it's a match fixed already.
Mazagon dock and French subs to win.
Why make the competition?
. Maybe like mmrca tender after buying 36 rafales.
I would also like L&T get some orders to know the performance of private sector..
Scorpene subs took incredibly long time.
I wouldn't like any experiment which can hamper submarine building capabilities. It's not required. It's a delicate operation. We are no USA or Russia or China where multiple lines can be maintained. We are more like France or UK in our ambitions and should learn from them. Just a break of 2-3 years is enough to loose skilled manpower.
The best option out there is to cancel P75I. Order 6 more Scorpene with French AIP, Naval Scalp and F21 torpedo and focus on building 12 SSNs instead. Cost effective, quickest option we have.
IMO, the best options for MDL and L&T are choosing either the French or the S Koreans.
Germany should be avoided at all costs, far too pacifist and stubborn. Russia is a problem when it comes to tech transfers.
The French offer is for a new class called the SMX 3.0, not Scorpene, whereas the Koreans have come up with their own indigenous design. The Korean Batch II design comes with 10 VLS and they plan to skipp out on AIP by choosing Li-ion batteries instead, and comes with fully electric propulsion. The biggest advantage is the fact that the Koreans have already started building the new class of subs and will have fixed all the problems by the time we get our first sub, whereas the French sub will be the first of its class, so the Korean sub will have a price and maturity advantage.
There is talk of splitting the order 4 to 2, with 2 going to L&T, or 4 to the winner and 2 to the loser, but it's unclear if that will actually happen.
It's not an issue. We have enough submarines that 2 lines will be occupied for refits after the construction is done. MDL will begin refit of the first submarine as soon as the last Scorpene leaves the line.
And 24 submarines is only the current plan. Let's see what happens in the future, when we transition to a developed country.
Terrible idea. It's like saying we should cancel FRCV and just build more T-90s.
The DE submarine program has been split into imports and indigenous in order to bring technology infusion on a regular basis. We can't build more Scorpenes again, that's a terrible waste of resources.
The P75I if done everything in a timely manner will saw a signing of deal in 2023, then construction starting in 2024/25 and first submarine coming in 2030 in IN service.
That means without any follow on orders the line at MDL will see a pause and loss of skilled labour. Simply because refit is not same as manufacturing. Even HSL can refit Kilos, can it however build them?
And with only 18 SSK plan , out of which 6 are done now, we are left with just 12 more. Which is not enough even for 1 line to function for a decade.
Rest we are less than 40% at our own current planned capabilities across the 3 services, I have stopped contemplating on what a future developed economy might bring.
False. Submarines are different, it cannot even be compared to a FFG/DDG construction program, leave alone comparing it with tank program.
The Scorpene fits the requirement of Navy and that should do it.
Actually, yes, if they get blueprint and production tools. HSL even tried to squeeze into P-75I with Adani's help. I'd actually say HSL is much more accomplished in building submarines than MDL is.
Submarines have more flexibility, but that's only when we make it with our own tech. When we are buying tech, we have to buy what's available, not what we wish to operate.
Not really. That's the very point of P-75I, that the Scorpene will not meet future requirements, hence a new tender. For example, the next submarine requires the ability to fire the hypersonic version of Brahmos, but at 9m long, that's too big to be fit inside the Scorpene, hence the need for an 8-9 diameter submarine. How on earth will the current Scorpene fire the Brahmos-1?