Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Innominate]

You won't find information about Derby ER, you need knowledge.

According to you no information available but somehow you feel like pulling a 200km range out of your butt.

As per the Israelis, the AIM-120D is only half as capable. That's plenty enough.

Third world nations are buying Derby which include India first world nations are buying the Aim-120D. Why don't you post a source to see what the Israelis actually said instead of hearing it come out of you.

The same with Astra, the 160Km range refers to medium altitude, that's not its max range.

Source,

As for Astra Mk3, it's already under testing. First flew in 2018, so no, it's not like the AIM-260.

Astra Mk3, a Very long-range BVR air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) will start its Developmental trials in 2022 that DRDO has co-developed with Russia. a solid-fueled air-breathing ramjet engine based Astra Mk3 has been tested from a ground-based launcher twice in previous years and demonstrated first its smokeless booster and later its ramjet engine.
DRDO Chief: Astra Mk2 missile to be tested this year, Astra Mk2 scheduled for 2022 - See Latest

Aim-260 test is set for 2021-2022 and goes IOC 2022. It's been in development since 2017.

Collins could not give any new details about the AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM), revealed at the same conference two years ago, when then-program executive officer Maj. Gen. Anthony W. Genatempo, said it would be ready for tests from the F-22 in 2022. Collins said the Air Force is “pushing forward and executing” the program, but he is restricted from further comment due to its sensitivity. The missile is set to replace the AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile sometime this decade and is purported to have a range to compete with China’s new long-range air-to-air missiles such as the PL-15.

Genatempo forecast production lots of JATMs in the hundreds of units and said AMRAAM production will start tailing off as the JATM ramps up. The Air Force’s 2022 budget request included a reduction in AMRAAM production from previous years.
As Air Force Ramps Up JASSM, Work Begins on its Replacement - Air Force Magazine

Aim-260 will enter service on fighters before Mk3.

What they are talking about is testing from a fighter jet. All it needs is a 2-year testing cycle before induction.

Then why did you insinuate differently when you know we were talking about air to air missiles?

And again I'll ask (but i know the answer) why did you bring up the Astra when we were talking about Derby? Why did you change the topic?

 

[vargr]

This thread needs to get back to being about the F-35 and F-22 and not whatever buttsh*t has been going on the last hundred pages. I'm tired of opening the thread and seeing the word "Rafale" or reading another butthurt French guy's drivel on why he thinks the F-35 is garbage. No one gives a f*ck about the Rafale or France here. Got to a different page.

 

[Innominate]

British, Italian F-35s to get new missile types​

LONDON – MBDA and BAE Systems have secured additional funding from the British and Italian governments to complete integration of key weapon systems destined to add capability to their F-35 combat jet fleets, the companies announced Sept 17.

The cash injection will see MBDA’s SPEAR precision surface attack missile and Meteor air-to-air weapon integrated on the aircraft.

The weapons will join Raytheon UK’s Paveway IV precision-guided bomb and the MBDA ASRAAM short-range, anti-air weapon as British weapons integrated on the F-35.

The Royal Air Force has selected the Spear and Meteor weapons for fitting to their F-35 fleet, while the Italian involvement relates only to the air-to-air weapon. That could change, though, as the Italians have shown interest in the Spear weapon, said industry officials.

The amount of the investment is not known, but it is thought to be in the region of $400 million. The British are providing the bulk of the money.

Under the contract arrangements for the F-35, the integration work is subcontracted through the aircraft manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, with help from BAE Systems.

In 2019 initial funding was awarded by F-35 builder Lockheed Martin to start integration of Meteor and the Spear strike missiles on the jet, although early work had been underway prior to that.

The latest slice of funding will complete the work on both weapons.

The date for introduction of the missiles on the F-35 remains under discussion, but the RAF’s ambition is to have the weapons available by the end of 2024.

Paul Mead, group business development director, at MBDA said: “We are delighted that work continues at pace to deliver Meteor and SPEAR capability to the F-35; it is also a positive step for the wider F-35 enterprise, as it adds additional capability choice for all international customers across multiple variants of the aircraft.”

Meteor is already in service on the Typhoon combat jets operated by the British and Italian air forces.

The funding agreement appears to bring to a close a potential spat between the British and Americans over the timing of integration of Spear and Meteor.

Earlier this year British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace told a parliamentary Defence Committee that he would be reluctant to buy further F-35s until an issue over pushing European weapons back in the integration queue was resolved.

“It’s important that we continue the planned integration of Meteor on the F-35, I don’t want to be put to the back of the queue for that and it’s in all your interests that if you want me to carry on buying F-35 that we keep a lid on [maintenance] costs and that we are treated fairly integrating a European-made missile [on the jet],” he said.
British, Italian F-35s to get new missile types (defensenews.com)

Brutal. Going up against F-35's armed with aim-120c5's is not a fair fight with Aim-120D and soon Meteor... Just brutal.

 

[randomradio]

This thread needs to get back to being about the F-35 and F-22 and not whatever buttsh*t has been going on the last hundred pages. I'm tired of opening the thread and seeing the word "Rafale" or reading another butthurt French guy's drivel on why he thinks the F-35 is garbage. No one gives a f*ck about the Rafale or France here. Got to a different page.

It's not gonna change anytime soon though, 'cause the Finnish result's gonna be out soon.

 

[Lolwa]

first world nations are buying the Aim-120D.

It's only the British who have bought the aim120d no other buyer from what I've seen. And it's still being tested.

Then why did you insinuate differently when you know we were talking about air to air missiles?

Astra mk 2 and mk 3 is A2A but it's in development trials..

 

[Innominate]

It's only the British who have bought the aim120d no other buyer from what I've seen. And it's still being tested.

Just a little research is all it takes, bub.

The AIM-120D, formerly known as the AIM-120C8, is the latest development of the AMRAAM missile family designed and build by Raytheon and developed under P3I Phase 4 initiative.
AIM-120 AMRAAM (deagel.com)

Japan.
Japan Cleared to Buy 32 AIM-120C-8 AMRAAM Missiles in $63 Million Deal - MilitaryLeak

South Korea.
The U.S. State Department approved the sale to South Korea of 120 AIM-120C-7/C-8 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) with support at an estimated cost of $253 million, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a release.
US approves sale to South Korea of 120 AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air-missiles (thedefensepost.com)

Australia.
Australia seeks DOD's newest air-to-air missile, the AIM-120D | News | Flight Global

Canada.
Canada is purchasing AIM-120D Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles for its CF-18 fighter jets.
Canada buying more than $140 million in missiles for CF-18s | Ottawa Citizen

Like I said first world missile.

Astra mk 2 and mk 3 is A2A but it's in development trials..

Yes I know but other guy insinuated differently.

 

[Lolwa]

Just a little research is all it takes, bub.

The AIM-120D, formerly known as the AIM-120C8, is the latest development of the AMRAAM missile family designed and build by Raytheon and developed under P3I Phase 4 initiative.
AIM-120 AMRAAM (deagel.com)

Japan.
Japan Cleared to Buy 32 AIM-120C-8 AMRAAM Missiles in $63 Million Deal - MilitaryLeak

South Korea.
The U.S. State Department approved the sale to South Korea of 120 AIM-120C-7/C-8 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) with support at an estimated cost of $253 million, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a release.
US approves sale to South Korea of 120 AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air-missiles (thedefensepost.com)

Australia.
Australia seeks DOD's newest air-to-air missile, the AIM-120D | News | Flight Global

Canada.
Canada is purchasing AIM-120D Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles for its CF-18 fighter jets.
Canada buying more than $140 million in missiles for CF-18s | Ottawa Citizen

Like I said first world missile.

Yes I know but other guy insinuated differently.

None of them use it for now. As I said it's only used by the Americans and the Brits. We could very well buy the aim 120d if you are under that delusion. But we don't have any plane to integrate it with. Maybe we could integrate with the tejas. But that's still a future case. The meteor is superior to the aim 120d and we use it. So you cannot even use the "first world" card against us..

 

[Innominate]

None of them use it for now. As I said it's only used by the Americans and the Brits.

Oh for crying out loud! You just love being wrong, huh? You were wrong when you claimed ONLY the Brits bought them and now you're wrong again. Nippon, South Korea, Canada and Australia bought these missiles 2015-2019 and have been delivered

We could very well buy the aim 120d if you are under that delusion. But we don't have any plane to integrate it with. Maybe we could integrate with the tejas. But that's still a future case. The meteor is superior to the aim 120d and we use it. So you cannot even use the "first world" card against us..

IAF only has 20+ french planes and not all of them have meteor IAF has like 10 of them currently and the Brits bought a lot of aim-120d's when they already have Meteors. Meteors are going to be integrated to their F-35B's early next year they could have waited and used their aim-120c5/c7 but they chose to buy 200+ aim-120d's.

 

[Lolwa]

Oh for crying out loud! You just love being wrong, huh? You were wrong when you claimed ONLY the Brits bought them and now you're wrong again. Nippon, South Korea, Canada and Australia bought these missiles 2015-2019 and have been delivered


IAF only has 20+ french planes and not all of them have meteor IAF has like 10 of them currently and the Brits bought a lot of aim-120d's when they already have Meteors. Meteors are going to be integrated to their F-35B's early next year they could have waited and used their aim-120c5/c7 but they chose to buy 200+ aim-120d's.

The news you gave were for 2016-2020 half of them were deals that will happen in the future. So it's just a matter of semantics. As for present situation it's only the Brits and US who have actual experience with the aim 120d.
The meteor integration is only for European f- 35's.
The only reason they bought aim 120d is because it's CHEAPER. And meteor is a silver bullet unlike the aim 120d. Plus they already have experience with the amraam so no need for any infrastructure setup or training. The Brits are trying to maintain a small but highly capable and advanced force. So it's logical to replace their c7 with the aim 120d's..
Also there's no number on the total meteors we have. The qataris bought 160 meteors for their rafales. So our numbers should be at a similar ballpark..

 

[Lolwa]

Nippon, South Korea, Canada and Australia bought these missiles 2015-2019 and have been delivered

Raytheon to Build More AMRAAMs for 22 Nations | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Raytheon will build a new batch of Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles for 22 foreign countries under a $768.3 million Air Force contract.

www.airforcemag.com

Looks like the delivery only began in 2020.

 

[Innominate]

The news you gave were for 2016-2020 half of them were deals that will happen in the future. So it's just a matter of semantics. As for present situation it's only the Brits and US who have actual experience with the aim 120d.

Wong! I mean.. Wrong! Australia, Canada, Japan currently have Aim-120d in service.

The meteor integration is only for European f- 35's.
The only reason they bought aim 120d is because it's CHEAPER. And meteor is a silver bullet unlike the aim 120d. Plus they already have experience with the amraam so no need for any infrastructure setup or training. The Brits are trying to maintain a small but highly capable and advanced force. So it's logical to replace their c7 with the aim 120d's..

Did you just make that up like may of your claims here or do you actually have source to back this specific claim?

Also there's no number on the total meteors we have. The qataris bought 160 meteors for their rafales. So our numbers should be at a similar ballpark..

2020 article.

NEW DELHI: France is considering a request for early delivery of Meteor air-to-air missiles that will give India the firepower to take on US supplied AMRAAMs used by the Pakistan Air Force to target its fighter jets the day after the Balakot airstrikes in February.

The beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles, which will outgun all other air forces in the region, were to come by late 2020 but an Indian request for at least 10 missiles in advance.
Indian Air Force: IAF may get ‘No Escape’ Meteor missiles in May (indiatimes.com)

These 10 missiles were to arrive late 2020. After that no more news about more meteors arriving.

 

[Lolwa]

Did you just make that up like may of your claims here or do you actually have source to back this specific claim?

It's just basic logic. Dual pulse motor is inferior to ramjet based missiles. The Chinese are aiming for their own ramjet based missile with the pl 21.
The meteor is clearly more expensive than the aim120d at 2 mil $ per unit..
The British going for the 120d is to upgrade their main bvr armament while the meteor will be used as a silver bullet...
If the British were interested in keeping "outdated" hardware they would have kept the tranche 1 typhoons still. They would still have a seperate f35 squadron for the raf instead of a joint commanded one.
The British are cost cutting and making a smaller and more lethal,advanced force since British don't have any realistic threats apart from some Russian harrasment. And the British will dominate in a limited skirmish against the Russians..

 

[BMD]

At lower altitudes. You obviously do not know this but AAM range changes based on altitude.

If a missile does 100Km at medium altitude, then it will do 200+ Km at high altitude. You can say that the Aim-120D does 80 Km at the same altitude the Derby ER does 100 Km.

India's latest Astra Mk2 manages 250Km at high altitude. The upcoming Astra Mk3 does 350Km. The Chinese PL-15 manages 250-300Km. Meteor does 250+Km. And so on. Derby ER does 200+Km, whereas the old AIM-120D is said to do 160-180Km. Which is why the AIM-260 are in development, and is expected to exceed 200Km as well, to match Chinese capability.

Derby is twice as good as the AIM-120D because it uses a dual pulse motor, which allows a terminal speed that's almost twice that of the AIM-120D. So when the AIM-120D's speed drops to mach 2.5 when making a kill, the Derby ER accelerates to mach 4.5 when making a kill, while also carrying a significantly superior seeker tech. All the other missiles I've mentioned above either use dual pulse rockets or ramjet. The AIM-120D with its single pulse motor is already outdated.

Derby-ER is not longer range than AMRAAM-D, it's smaller for a start.

You won't find information about Derby ER, you need knowledge. As per the Israelis, the AIM-120D is only half as capable. That's plenty enough.

The same with Astra, the 160Km range refers to medium altitude, that's not its max range.

As for Astra Mk3, it's already under testing. First flew in 2018, so no, it's not like the AIM-260.

What they are talking about is testing from a fighter jet. All it needs is a 2-year testing cycle before induction.

The missile pictured there is David's Sling aka Stunner.
Anyway, back on topic.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1439985265192353804

 

[randomradio]

Derby-ER is not longer range than AMRAAM-D, it's smaller for a start.

The Israelis are experts at miniaturisation of electronics. The Derby ER uses a combined seeker plus fuse, so that gives it more space for fuel. And being half a mach faster during boost adds to the range. The dual pulse motor also adds to the range. When the electronics and propulsion are not the same, there will obviously be benefits to having a more advanced technolgies even if the airframe is smaller.

 

[randomradio]

The missile pictured there is David's Sling aka Stunner.

Lol. No. That's the Indian SFDR.

India's Air-To-Air Supermissile A Step Closer With DRDO's New SFDR Test

With a new SFDR technology test, decks cleared for India’s air-to-air supermissile.

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[BMD]

The Israelis are experts at miniaturisation of electronics. The Derby ER uses a combined seeker plus fuse, so that gives it more space for fuel. And being half a mach faster during boost adds to the range. The dual pulse motor also adds to the range. When the electronics and propulsion are not the same, there will obviously be benefits to having a more advanced technolgies even if the airframe is smaller.

So are the US and the missile size difference is significant. Speed depends on launch altitude. The range Israel quotes is 100km, they would not undersell themselves.

 

[randomradio]

So are the US and the missile size difference is significant. Speed depends on launch altitude. The range Israel quotes is 100km, they would not undersell themselves.

It's only a 20mm difference in diameter, the length is the same as the AMRAAM. So it results in a mere 20% difference in volume.

The 100Km range is a lot when you ask real pilots, because range changes based on altitude. And the range at a particular altitude is the actual metric for comparison. At the same altitude, the Derby ER comfortably outranges the AIM-120D.

When Astra was advertised to be an 80Km missile, critics in India complained it's not even as good as the RVV-AE. But no one told them the 80Km range is at 8Km altitude, whereas the RVV-AE's range of 85Km is at altitudes above 12Km. At the same altitude, the Astra does 110Km.

 

[BMD]

It's only a 20mm difference in diameter, the length is the same as the AMRAAM. So it results in a mere 20% difference in volume.

The 100Km range is a lot when you ask real pilots, because range changes based on altitude. And the range at a particular altitude is the actual metric for comparison. At the same altitude, the Derby ER comfortably outranges the AIM-120D.

When Astra was advertised to be an 80Km missile, critics in India complained it's not even as good as the RVV-AE. But no one told them the 80Km range is at 8Km altitude, whereas the RVV-AE's range of 85Km is at altitudes above 12Km. At the same altitude, the Astra does 110Km.

A 12.5% difference in diameter is a 26.6% difference in c/s area, the US missile is slightly longer too. The ranges quoted are likely at the same altitude.

 

[randomradio]

So are the US and the missile size difference is significant. Speed depends on launch altitude. The range Israel quotes is 100km, they would not undersell themselves.

They always undersell themselves publicly. This is a very well-known fact about them. Israel undersells, Russia oversells.

The Barak 8's speed is quoted as mach 2+, but its actual speed is mach 4.5. The Derby ER's speed is indeed 100Km, but at X altitude. They won't tell you what altitude publicly though. So they are not lying, they are only communicating half the information. The rest is for you to guess.

 

[randomradio]

A 12.5% difference in diameter is a 26.6% difference in c/s area, the US missile is slightly longer too. The ranges quoted are likely at the same altitude.

Both have the same 3.6m length. And you can bet a smaller CS equals lower drag. Lesser weight equals lesser thrust, which equals to lower fuel consumption.