3.66m vs 3.62m. The drag is mainly dependent on the fins and the AMRAAM has clipped fins, with both nearer the back.
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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You're counting on 4 cm? So you're literally saying with a mere 20% difference in volume, the D outranges the Derby by 300% and the Derby ER by 60%?
Do you know Israel has advertised the Derby ER with a range that's 80% of the Meteor?
I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Aviation Week Network
RAFAEL is unveiling a new, extended range version of its Beyond Visual Range active radar-guided air-to-air missile—the I-Derby ER.
aviationweek.com
This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.
The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.
Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.
Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.
A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.
Wouldn't you say you are being quite wrong there? I calculated 80% of the Meteor's range to be 200Km, ie, more than the Aim-120D's claimed range of 160-180Km.
Just so you know, Astra Mk2's actual range is 200-250Km and the lobbed range is over 350Km. And Derby ER is more or less its equivalent.
Nice 2015 article and they don't claim range they claim PERFORMANCE which there's a difference. Even Rafael's own site claims the I-DerbyER is 100km+ But you keep trying.You're counting on 4 cm? So you're literally saying with a mere 20% difference in volume, the D outranges the Derby by 300% and the Derby ER by 60%?
Do you know Israel has advertised the Derby ER with a range that's 80% of the Meteor?
The new seeker is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used by the missile designers to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km., significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Aviation Week Network
RAFAEL is unveiling a new, extended range version of its Beyond Visual Range active radar-guided air-to-air missile—the I-Derby ER.
This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.
The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.
Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.
Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.
A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.
Wouldn't you say you are being quite wrong there? I calculated 80% of the Meteor's range to be 200Km, ie, more than the Aim-120D's claimed range of 160-180Km.
Just so you know, Astra Mk2's actual range is 200-250Km and the lobbed range is over 350Km. And Derby ER is more or less its equivalent.
I-DerbyER.pdf (rafael.co.il)
India working on next ‘Astra’ missile with 160 km range as Mk1 is integrated in IAF & Navy
The DRDO expects to complete the extension of range by May 2022. Astra is an indigenous beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
New Delhi: India is working on an extended range of the indigenous beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile ‘Astra’ (Sanskrit/Hindi for a launched weapon), which will enable it to strike enemy targets 160 km away, without getting out of its own airspace, ThePrint has learnt.India working on next ‘Astra’ missile with 160 km range as Mk1 is integrated in IAF & Navy (theprint.in)
Actually the Aim-120D's range is 150-200nm+ and its lobbed range is infinity.
Where did I say 300%? AIM-120 is quoted at 160km, vs 100km for Derby-ER, so with a ~30% volume increase (26.6% in area and 1.4% in length), it has a 30% increase in range. Assuming the electronics and warhead take up the same volume in each missile, the actual % increase in fuel will be higher than 30% in the bigger missiles. So the outcome seems very reasonable.You're counting on 4 cm? So you're literally saying with a mere 20% difference in volume, the D outranges the Derby by 300% and the Derby ER by 60%?
Do you know Israel has advertised the Derby ER with a range that's 80% of the Meteor?
The new seeker is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used by the missile designers to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km., significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Aviation Week Network
RAFAEL is unveiling a new, extended range version of its Beyond Visual Range active radar-guided air-to-air missile—the I-Derby ER.
This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.
The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.
Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.
Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.
A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.
Wouldn't you say you are being quite wrong there? I calculated 80% of the Meteor's range to be 200Km, ie, more than the Aim-120D's claimed range of 160-180Km.
Just so you know, Astra Mk2's actual range is 200-250Km and the lobbed range is over 350Km. And Derby ER is more or less its equivalent.
The problem with that is that the first case is therefore smaller, as is the subsequent kick. Maybe it is better than one large kick though, which explains why a greater than 30% increase in fuel only gives 30% increase in range.
The Derby and Derby ER use the same airframe. So, if we go by your claim, since the Derby is advertised to be a 50Km missile, that makes it more than 3x disadvantaged over the AIM-120D's advertised 160-180Km. Makes sense right? So you are the one claiming the D is 300% superior to the Derby.
But the reality is it was made to be as capable as the AMRAAM C, ie 100+Km, it was Israel's equivalent of the AMRAAM. And you seem to have forgotten that the Israelis have doubled that range on the ER, not merely increased it by 30%.
Well Derby is clearly not very advanced, just as AIM-120A/B wasn't, range has doubled since then in both missiles. Even since AIM-120C, range has increase by 60km. So I don't see the argument here. Derby had way less range than the AIM-120C.
Right, they increased range by 50km, AMRAAM increased by 60km because it had more range to start with. With a claim of 200km, you're saying Derby-ER has more range than an AIM-54C, or even its proposed replacement, the AIM-152.
Most of the modern dual pulse BVR designs today pretty much have equal or more range than missiles like the old AIM-54 and K-100.
As I've said before, the Astra Mk2 has a range of 200-250Km, it's closer to 250Km 'cause we have a new SAM called the XRSAM with the same range using the same missile with a large booster strapped on to it, and a lobbed range of 350Km, which is usable against large aircraft and AWACS. Derby ER is in the same class, which is why it's competing with the Astra Mk2 for the IAF. Rafael claiming it does 80% of the Meteor's range is enough of a clue. If it really was just 100Km, then it wouldn't even compete with the Astra Mk1, and the IAF wouldn't be considering it for emergency purchases or for the LCA.
At 4m long, PL-15 is a much bigger missile and does up to 300Km. Hence why the US is working on the AIM-260, which apparently has a greater direct fire range than the PL-15, in order to "outstick the Chinese". We are responding with the 340Km Astra Mk3.
The AMRAAM As and Bs predated the Cs and Derby by many years.
Depends on the single motor and trajectory profile. Don't forget that Derby-ER, by volume, is closer in size by volume to an ASRAAM, which also has a dual pulse motor. 200km is unrealistic.
What about working on a multi-stage BVR based on ASTRA, Similar to Boeing future concept... the booster phase will be separated from the missile after complete burnout and dual pulse Astra MK2 will ignite to hit the target, this type of missile will give MKI a much-needed range of 250 km+ as its a bigger plane. We should consider this design only for MKI since it can carry this weight.
That's exactly what the XRSAM is. It's the Astra Mk2 attached to a booster. The booster carries it to different altitudes, and at its highest altitude it can achieve a range of 250Km direct fire. The same concept can be applied to an AAM, but the booster will need to be redesigned to be smaller, lighter and sleeker. This should be able to push the Astra Mk2 to 400Km. The standard AAM range is around 250Km, so it's not really necessary. Plus Astra Mk3 will be ready before an AAM version of XRSAM is created anyway.
Yes but the diameter is only 0.16m, ASRAAM is .166m. diameter is a squared dimension. Do the maths, Derby-ER closer to ASRAAM by volume than AMRAAM.
Did do 0.0628m^3 (ASRAAM), 0.0728m^3 (Derby-ER) and 0.0934m^3 (AMRAAM).
Here's What You Need to Remember: The structural damage that the Navy’s F-35C and the Marine Corps’s F-35B suffer when flying at supersonic speed reportedly is unfixable -- and potentially the most serious long-term problem for the stealth fighter.
nationalinterest.org
Flying at Supersonic Speeds Is Causing the F-35 Big Problems
Has the U.S. lost air superiority to China and Russia?
nationalinterest.org
Lol. Talk about click bait and digging up the past and why am I not surprised that some poor fella whos nation will never fly a stealth fighter decided to parrot another parrot who is just as clueless...Here's What You Need to Remember: The structural damage that the Navy’s F-35C and the Marine Corps’s F-35B suffer when flying at supersonic speed reportedly is unfixable -- and potentially the most serious long-term problem for the stealth fighter.
Flying at Supersonic Speeds Is Causing the F-35 Big Problems
Has the U.S. lost air superiority to China and Russia?
Here's the deal.
Since then the JPO tried to replicate the conditions but failed. In 9 years and over 275,000 flight hours – there are only 2 incidents of F-35’s coating being damaged.
In 2014, Lockheed introduced a more durable coating in Lot 8 to better withstand the thermal shock wave. But because JPO failed to replicate the same conditions to test the new coatings for almost a decade and little combat utility of sustained Mach 1.4+ flight – they decided not to waste more resources into this issue by putting advisory restriction for F-35B and F-35C’s use on afterburners at supersonic regime.
- F-35B: 80 sec. at Mach 1.2 and 40 sec. at Mach 1.3
- F-35C: 50 sec. at Mach 1.3
This restriction has negligible impact on F-35B/C’s performance – contrary to the gross misrepresentation, it has little impact on F-35’s supersonic flight. Even during the era when Mach 2+ aircraft were common, vast majority of combat happened bellow Mach 1.2
And if the situation demands – there’s nothing stopping a F-35B/C pilot from exceeding these advisory limits in combat. These restrictions are there only to avoid unnecessary damage in peace time operations.
The F-35 can cruise at Mach 1.2 on dry thrust for 150 miles in combat config.[1] but Lockheed doesn’t market F-35 as ‘supercruise’ because unlike others USAF defines supercruise as Mach 1.5+ on dry thrust, not just breaking the sound barrier.
Like many things in F-35 program, these restrictions are taken out of proportion. At the end of the day, F-35 can sustain supersonic flight far better than almost any 4th gen. aircraft in combat config.
The F-35’s Race Against Time (archive.org)