MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

A lot of work is happening, esp in Gujarat, where there is a MSME cluster specializing in CNC forging and machining equipment with defence applications.

Rajkot Firms Fire Up to Meet Defence Sector Demands | Rajkot News - Times of India

Rajkot firms are gearing up to meet the demands of the defence sector. With the ministry of defence allocating 75% of the defence capital budget for domestic firms, Rajkot is capitalizing on its expertise in casting, forging, and machining. Rajkot is becoming a hub for defence manufacturing.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Just to add to what you've put out , I'm told Rajkot is one of the top 2-3 clusters in terms of forging. It used to be Kolhapur Belgaum axes when I started out my career apart from Pune.

While the latter is still a major player , the former has withered away & Rajkot has come up very strongly to replace it .

Up North it's mostly in the NCR & Ludhiana Jalandhar axes in Punjab . No clue about the latter in Punjab given mostly industries are exiting Punjab but NCR is a real power house.

While there are plenty of 5-7 axes CNC machines ( also can be configured for 7-9 axes) being mfgd by Indian OEMs there are a few OEMs into 12 axes CNC machines too though no clue about their reputation.

Here's a brief list of 5-7 axes CNC machines OEMs in India -

Top 7 5 Axis CNC Machine Manufacturers In India | Blue Elephant CNC

Here’s something most business won’t tell you: not all 5-axis CNC machine manufacturers in India deliver the quality they promise.

www.elephant-cnc.com

Also we've developed good level of expertise in robotic cnc machining.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

India’s MRFA Choices Complicated As France Pivot's To Rafale F5 Development​

France has recalibrated its priorities in combat aviation, shifting focus from expanding the Rafale F4 fleet to accelerating development of the Rafale F5.
Operational clearance is targeted for 2030, with Defence Minister Catherine Vautrin emphasising that the move is designed to strengthen both air and naval capabilities, support future missions, and enhance export competitiveness.

The Rafale F5 is expected to deliver a generational leap, incorporating advanced AI-enabled systems, a new RBE2 XG radar, upgraded engines, and the ability to operate in tandem with drones.

This development carries significant implications for India’s Medium Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme, which has been cleared for the acquisition of 114 fighters. The Indian Air Force currently operates Rafale F3R jets, and the decision to align with the F5 could ensure long-term fleet uniformity while reducing future upgrade costs.

However, opting for the F5 may also expose India to procurement delays if development timelines slip, creating a tension between immediate squadron requirements and long-term capability planning.

India is simultaneously negotiating for an Interface Control Document with Dassault, which would allow integration of indigenous weapons such as the Astra-2 missile and BrahMos-NG cruise missile onto the Rafale platform.

This arrangement would also encompass French systems including the Scalp missile and Hammer munitions. The MRFA deal, valued at approximately €32 billion, is expected to include up to 50% indigenous manufacturing content, reflecting India’s push for self-reliance in defence production.

Several scenarios emerge for India’s MRFA pathway. If the Rafale F5 achieves its 2030 operational target, India could secure a future-ready fleet aligned with evolving operational needs.

Conversely, delays in F5 development might compel India to procure Rafale F4s sooner to address pressing squadron shortages. A third possibility lies in a phased approach, with initial F4 acquisitions upgraded to F5 later, balancing immediate requirements with long-term capability ambitions.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

India’s MRFA Choices Complicated As France Pivot's To Rafale F5 Development​

France has recalibrated its priorities in combat aviation, shifting focus from expanding the Rafale F4 fleet to accelerating development of the Rafale F5.
Operational clearance is targeted for 2030, with Defence Minister Catherine Vautrin emphasising that the move is designed to strengthen both air and naval capabilities, support future missions, and enhance export competitiveness.

The Rafale F5 is expected to deliver a generational leap, incorporating advanced AI-enabled systems, a new RBE2 XG radar, upgraded engines, and the ability to operate in tandem with drones.

This development carries significant implications for India’s Medium Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme, which has been cleared for the acquisition of 114 fighters. The Indian Air Force currently operates Rafale F3R jets, and the decision to align with the F5 could ensure long-term fleet uniformity while reducing future upgrade costs.

However, opting for the F5 may also expose India to procurement delays if development timelines slip, creating a tension between immediate squadron requirements and long-term capability planning.

India is simultaneously negotiating for an Interface Control Document with Dassault, which would allow integration of indigenous weapons such as the Astra-2 missile and BrahMos-NG cruise missile onto the Rafale platform.

This arrangement would also encompass French systems including the Scalp missile and Hammer munitions. The MRFA deal, valued at approximately €32 billion, is expected to include up to 50% indigenous manufacturing content, reflecting India’s push for self-reliance in defence production.

Several scenarios emerge for India’s MRFA pathway. If the Rafale F5 achieves its 2030 operational target, India could secure a future-ready fleet aligned with evolving operational needs.

Conversely, delays in F5 development might compel India to procure Rafale F4s sooner to address pressing squadron shortages. A third possibility lies in a phased approach, with initial F4 acquisitions upgraded to F5 later, balancing immediate requirements with long-term capability ambitions.

bruno etchenic
Safran•3 k abonnés

1 j. Modifié

To all my indian Friends, Namaste !An article about Indian MRFA procurment tells that the development of the F5 Version of the Rafale will involve a kind of a "hard choice to make" between go faster for Rafale F4 procurment or wait for F5 ones, as the new standard will create a kind of generational gap. Like we can read in this article: https://lnkd.in/e34m--ugSo, i'm writing in english today, and if some of my contacts can spread the word to my indian counterpart (hello Benedict Smith or Dinakar Peri).F4 or F5 are mainly SOFTWARE standards. Today, the capabilities of a fighter aircraft is higlhy linked to his software. The software relies on BLOCKs. Which are the Hardware version of the airframe and internal components. Today we are at block 2, and a block 2++ is on the way with (and its an exclusive news here) a new MDPU, which will support the increase of compute need. Then, you'll find the components. Hardware devices considered as "peripherals" (like for your computer). Radar, OSF, DDM, pods, Antennas for Spectra, etc. You can change them as you wish. the Rafale is designed from the begining as an evolutive platform, with open architecture, modularity. A real scalable platform. So you can have a block 1 Rafale with F4 standard and AESA radar, as well as block2 Rafale with PESA radar, both will be F4. The same will apply for F5. The block 2+ will be ready for F5 upgrades. And if new block is realeased, everything could be upgraded during a maintenance. It work like this for 20 years, its revolutional, why would you like that it won't work anymore in the future ?So... Don't worry. Learn the philosophy of the Rafale, you'll be surprised. And if you have questions... Contact me ! I would love to write or to be interviewed for an indian paper one day.

 

[Ashwin]

Rafale order plan: Govt to ensure jets can carry indigenous missiles​

India will ensure that indigenously developed missiles and weapons systems can be integrated into the 114 Rafale fighters it plans to buy, people familiar with the matter said.

Rafale Fighter played a huge role in destroying terrorist camps in Pakistan during Operation Sindoor on May 7, 2025.
It will do so by insisting on a so-called interface control document (ICD) in the government to government contract on the “buy and make” deal, they added, asking not to be named.

The defence ministry is expected to issue the Request For Proposal (RFP) to French jet maker Dassault next month, and contract negotiations will begin after that. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared the deal on February 12.

The people cited above said the plan is to “hardwire” ICD into the final contract for the ₹3.25 lakh crore mega deal. ICD is a critical system engineering document that controls and defines all the vital protocols between a system and sub-systems. According to the proposal cleared by DAC, 18 fighters will be delivered in fly away condition from France while remaining 96 will be manufactured in India with indigenous content of over 25%.

Amidst reports that the mega deal has hit a hurdle with French Rafale manufacturer Dassault refusing to hand over “source code” of the fighter to India, top defence ministry officials confirmed to Hindustan Times that no country offers up these proprietary software codes (which control the radars, electronic warfare suite and weapon integration) to any third country and the deal remains well on track. The “source codes” virtually control the entire fighter including avionics, target tracking, flight control, weapon launch and weapons release algorithms. The code is the intellectual property of the original equipment manufacturer, which is not shared even with the closest of allies, the officials added.

While India’s long term strategic ally Russia has offered two squadrons of fifth generation Su-57 to Indian Air Forces and is involved in upgrading the existing Su-30 MKI fighter fleet with state-owned HAL, it has never shared or offered to share source codes of either of these fighters, HT learns. The same holds true for American aircraft manufacturers with Indian transport fleet and attack helicopter fleet made up of US aerial platforms.

Even though India has not taken any decision on acquisition of fifth generation aircraft either from US or from Russia, it is focused on indigenous development of Tejas Mark I A along with long range missiles and twin engine AMCA for the future in order to reduce dependence on foreign aerial platforms, beyond visual range air to air, and air to surface missiles.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Reliance Infrastructure to invest ₹10,000 crore in Maharashtra defence hub development​

Reliance Infrastructure plans to invest ₹10,000 crore over the next decade to develop India’s largest integrated facility for explosives, ammunition, and small arms manufacturing. The facility will be located in Ratnagiri, Maharashtra, within the Dhirubhai Ambani Defence City (DADC). The company has secured 1,000 acres in the Watad industrial area for this greenfield defence project, which will focus on exports.

This project marks the largest private sector defence initiative in India, and Reliance Infrastructure has already exported defence equipment worth over ₹1,000 crore through its subsidiaries, Jai Armaments and Reliance Defence. Both subsidiaries hold licences from the Indian government to manufacture arms and ammunition.

The project is expected to involve joint ventures with up to six leading global defence companies, although Reliance has yet to disclose their names. The company’s ammunition production will span small, medium, and large-calibre munitions, including advanced terminally guided munitions (TGM). Additionally, the small arms portfolio will cater to export markets, with applications for both civilian and military use.

Reliance Infrastructure has already established successful defence partnerships through joint ventures with Dassault Aviation and Thales at MIHAN in Nagpur, Maharashtra, where both companies export their entire production.


By investing in this project, Reliance Infrastructure aims to boost India’s defence manufacturing capabilities and contribute significantly to the country’s defence export ambitions, aligning with the government’s “Make in India” initiative for the defence sector.

 

[randomradio]

bruno etchenic
Safran•3 k abonnés

1 j. Modifié

To all my indian Friends, Namaste !An article about Indian MRFA procurment tells that the development of the F5 Version of the Rafale will involve a kind of a "hard choice to make" between go faster for Rafale F4 procurment or wait for F5 ones, as the new standard will create a kind of generational gap. Like we can read in this article: https://lnkd.in/e34m--ugSo, i'm writing in english today, and if some of my contacts can spread the word to my indian counterpart (hello Benedict Smith or Dinakar Peri).F4 or F5 are mainly SOFTWARE standards. Today, the capabilities of a fighter aircraft is higlhy linked to his software. The software relies on BLOCKs. Which are the Hardware version of the airframe and internal components. Today we are at block 2, and a block 2++ is on the way with (and its an exclusive news here) a new MDPU, which will support the increase of compute need. Then, you'll find the components. Hardware devices considered as "peripherals" (like for your computer). Radar, OSF, DDM, pods, Antennas for Spectra, etc. You can change them as you wish. the Rafale is designed from the begining as an evolutive platform, with open architecture, modularity. A real scalable platform. So you can have a block 1 Rafale with F4 standard and AESA radar, as well as block2 Rafale with PESA radar, both will be F4. The same will apply for F5. The block 2+ will be ready for F5 upgrades. And if new block is realeased, everything could be upgraded during a maintenance. It work like this for 20 years, its revolutional, why would you like that it won't work anymore in the future ?So... Don't worry. Learn the philosophy of the Rafale, you'll be surprised. And if you have questions... Contact me ! I would love to write or to be interviewed for an indian paper one day.

While I'm personally a fan of buying only F5s, we are currently at risk because we are only running on promises from the Americans today. Mass deliveries of F404s are yet to begin and the F414 deal is yet to be signed. We are not prepared to handle more delays. The injection of F4s would be a boon in such a situation.

The IAF's decision to for a mix of F4s and F5s is better in terms of addressing our squadron problem. It's the least risky option.

We need numbers too. We can't just end with 2 F4 squadrons, we need the guarantee of a full ORBAT for our specific geography in case something goes wrong with F5. 4 squadrons of 18 each will not just help the industry maintain pace without needing to reconfigure for a new jet after just 1 squadron (the first one being fully imported), but 7 F4 squadrons will give us the minimum numbers operationally necessary to cover 3 core geographical areas in the north, southwest, and northeast.

Sending out feelers for IAF postponing the F4 purchase for F5 shows that France is looking for a partner to fill in the gap the UAE left behind due to their withdrawal from F5. It's unlikely for the IAF to have planned an injection of such a large sum of money while they are already funding the development of 2 new domestic fighters and planning to enter a third program with Europe. De-risking MRFA by signing contracts only for operationally proven technologies is the most prudent choice.

And sure, getting a Rafale F4 pre-configured for an F5 upgrade seems to be a good idea. Let's see where the negotiations will take us once they begin.

 

[Bon Plan]

Though 114 Rafales will definitely aid in fighting 2 front war, the real question is how effective and potent they would be against Chinese 5th gen planes. My initial objection was on the fact that we are spending $36 billion on 4.5th gen aircraft which will unlikely help us counter the PLAAF. We have to believe in IAF's wisdom for that I guess. For Pakistan, even our current fleet is enough. This acquisition will tie significant amount of IAF's capex for at least a decade.

However, we cannot put all our eggs in Tejas Mk2 basket. We have to be prepared for uncertainties and possible delays in the program. For that we don't have any option other than Rafales, though deliveries will start in 2029-2030 at the earliest, if the contract is signed this FY. But whenever the Mk2 matures, we must induct it in huge numbers (at least 300 IMO). That would be critical for proper development of our aerospace industry.

How potent will be Tejas? How potent will be Tejas Mk2 ?
AMCA is far from beeing a proven reality, and what reality?
In fact you have very few options, because the indian political top brass didn't make the proper choices years ago.

 

[randomradio]

How potent will be Tejas? How potent will be Tejas Mk2 ?
AMCA is far from beeing a proven reality, and what reality?
In fact you have very few options, because the indian political top brass didn't make the proper choices years ago.

Paper potency is great. We are yet to see them in a real world setting. At least Mk1 did well, so we are sure about Mk1A.

There's still time to pivot to foreign options if they all fail. But that's less likely to happen 'cause of all the preparatory work that's gone into the development of foundational technologies for Mk2 and AMCA.

Mk2, the prototypes will practically be production versions. The avionics are at production standards and only the engine deal is pending.

AMCA's development is at an advanced enough stage that we skipped the TD phase entirely. Development time was brought down by half compared to the original. It's now under virtual prototyping for a digital twin, so by next year we will begin building the prototype.

So the overall plan for both has been de-risked to a very large degree.

We are only behind on 6th gen right now, and by just 5 years. We can in theory begin the concept stage and prepare the paper design as soon as AMCA's flight tests can begin. It just won't get clearance until AMCA achieves IOC, so that's at least until 2033.

 

[Ashwin]

IAF finalises Rafale RFP, sets stage for fighter production before Modi & chief AP Singh fly to France

The final contract will be signed only later this fiscal year. The long-term goal is to achieve 55-60 percent localisation for Rafale aircraft manufacture in India.

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has finalised the request for proposal (RFP) for 114 Rafale fighter jets, ahead of its chief’s and Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visits to France next month, ThePrint has learnt.

Under the plan, 22 Rafales will be procured from France in fly-away condition. The remaining 92 will be manufactured in India, through a partnership between France’s Dassault Aviation and an Indian private sector company. This will be the biggest fighter jet procurement programme in the world.

Sources in India’s defence and security establishment said the RFP was in the final stages of bureaucratic processing and was expected to be issued shortly. Once issued, the French side will submit its bid. India’s defence ministry will then constitute price negotiation and contract negotiation committees to advance the process.
The development comes ahead of IAF’s Air Chief Marshal A.P. Singh’s visit to France early next month. Modi’s trip is scheduled for later in June, during which an overarching government-to-government framework for the mega fighter deal will likely be announced. However, the final contract is expected to be signed only later this fiscal year.

According to sources, the 22 Rafale aircraft to be acquired off the shelf will also include trainer variants. When the project fructifies, India will become the first country outside France to manufacture the Rafale fighter aircraft. It will be a major milestone in New Delhi’s push to build a domestic aerospace manufacturing ecosystem outside the traditional public sector.

Sources said the Indian firms in contention include Tata Advanced Systems Limited, Mahindra, and the Adani Group.

Interestingly, personnel from some Indian companies are already undergoing training with Dassault Aviation in France for outsourcing work earmarked under the programme. Sources said Indian companies would first undergo an audit by the government, following which they would be issued licences for fighter aircraft manufacturing. At least two Indian firms are expected to receive the licence, after which Dassault will negotiate to choose its eventual production partner.

Sources clarified that the manufacturing licence for fighter aircraft was distinct from existing transport aircraft production approvals. Tata, for instance, already holds a licence for manufacturing the C-295 transport aircraft in India. The existing Dassault-Reliance venture only has approvals linked to the Falcon business jet programme. It is expected that Dassault and its Indian partner will eventually form a joint venture for Rafale manufacturing in India.

On the location of the final assembly line, sources said multiple options, including Nagpur, were being considered. In Nagpur, Dassault already has a facility. Hyderabad is also increasingly emerging as a major aerospace manufacturing hub. The government, sources said, wanted aerospace manufacturing capabilities to be geographically distributed, instead of remaining concentrated in a single region.

On indigenisation, sources said, the long-term aim was to achieve 55-60 percent localisation in phases of the Rafale production timeline. They explained that such levels cannot be achieved immediately since India would first need to build the broader supplier and manufacturing ecosystem required for fighter production.

Sources said the French proposed a timeline for indigenisation which the Indian side wanted shortened, with a bigger number of aircraft having higher indigenous content. Dassault tied up with Tata Advanced Systems last year to manufacture Rafale fuselage sections in India. Under the partnership, Tata Advanced Systems is setting up a production facility in Hyderabad to manufacture the Rafale’s key structural sections, including the lateral shells of the rear fuselage, the complete rear section, the central fuselage, and the front section. The first fuselage sections are ready to roll off the assembly line in FY2028. The facility is eventually expected to deliver up to two complete fuselages per month.

On technology transfer and source codes, sources clarified that the IAF has not sought complete access to the Rafale’s mission source code architecture. Instead, the focus has been on ensuring sufficient flexibility to integrate indigenous Indian weapons and systems onto the platform.

Sources also said the existing Rafale fleet with the IAF would be upgraded from the current F3 standard to the newer F4 configuration as part of the deal. The F4 standard depends on enhanced connectivity, improved data sharing, upgraded communications systems, software-defined radios, and network-centric warfare capabilities. At the same time, it serves as a bridge to the future Future Combat Air System (FCAS) architecture being developed by France and its European partners.

If the agreement is signed by early 2027 as currently envisaged, deliveries of the first fly-away aircraft are expected to begin from 2030 onwards.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

IAF finalises Rafale RFP, sets stage for fighter production before Modi & chief AP Singh fly to France

The final contract will be signed only later this fiscal year. The long-term goal is to achieve 55-60 percent localisation for Rafale aircraft manufacture in India.

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has finalised the request for proposal (RFP) for 114 Rafale fighter jets, ahead of its chief’s and Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visits to France next month, ThePrint has learnt.

Under the plan, 22 Rafales will be procured from France in fly-away condition. The remaining 92 will be manufactured in India, through a partnership between France’s Dassault Aviation and an Indian private sector company. This will be the biggest fighter jet procurement programme in the world.

Sources in India’s defence and security establishment said the RFP was in the final stages of bureaucratic processing and was expected to be issued shortly. Once issued, the French side will submit its bid. India’s defence ministry will then constitute price negotiation and contract negotiation committees to advance the process.
The development comes ahead of IAF’s Air Chief Marshal A.P. Singh’s visit to France early next month. Modi’s trip is scheduled for later in June, during which an overarching government-to-government framework for the mega fighter deal will likely be announced. However, the final contract is expected to be signed only later this fiscal year.

According to sources, the 22 Rafale aircraft to be acquired off the shelf will also include trainer variants. When the project fructifies, India will become the first country outside France to manufacture the Rafale fighter aircraft. It will be a major milestone in New Delhi’s push to build a domestic aerospace manufacturing ecosystem outside the traditional public sector.

Sources said the Indian firms in contention include Tata Advanced Systems Limited, Mahindra, and the Adani Group.

Interestingly, personnel from some Indian companies are already undergoing training with Dassault Aviation in France for outsourcing work earmarked under the programme. Sources said Indian companies would first undergo an audit by the government, following which they would be issued licences for fighter aircraft manufacturing. At least two Indian firms are expected to receive the licence, after which Dassault will negotiate to choose its eventual production partner.

Sources clarified that the manufacturing licence for fighter aircraft was distinct from existing transport aircraft production approvals. Tata, for instance, already holds a licence for manufacturing the C-295 transport aircraft in India. The existing Dassault-Reliance venture only has approvals linked to the Falcon business jet programme. It is expected that Dassault and its Indian partner will eventually form a joint venture for Rafale manufacturing in India.

On the location of the final assembly line, sources said multiple options, including Nagpur, were being considered. In Nagpur, Dassault already has a facility. Hyderabad is also increasingly emerging as a major aerospace manufacturing hub. The government, sources said, wanted aerospace manufacturing capabilities to be geographically distributed, instead of remaining concentrated in a single region.

On indigenisation, sources said, the long-term aim was to achieve 55-60 percent localisation in phases of the Rafale production timeline. They explained that such levels cannot be achieved immediately since India would first need to build the broader supplier and manufacturing ecosystem required for fighter production.

Sources said the French proposed a timeline for indigenisation which the Indian side wanted shortened, with a bigger number of aircraft having higher indigenous content. Dassault tied up with Tata Advanced Systems last year to manufacture Rafale fuselage sections in India. Under the partnership, Tata Advanced Systems is setting up a production facility in Hyderabad to manufacture the Rafale’s key structural sections, including the lateral shells of the rear fuselage, the complete rear section, the central fuselage, and the front section. The first fuselage sections are ready to roll off the assembly line in FY2028. The facility is eventually expected to deliver up to two complete fuselages per month.

On technology transfer and source codes, sources clarified that the IAF has not sought complete access to the Rafale’s mission source code architecture. Instead, the focus has been on ensuring sufficient flexibility to integrate indigenous Indian weapons and systems onto the platform.

Sources also said the existing Rafale fleet with the IAF would be upgraded from the current F3 standard to the newer F4 configuration as part of the deal. The F4 standard depends on enhanced connectivity, improved data sharing, upgraded communications systems, software-defined radios, and network-centric warfare capabilities. At the same time, it serves as a bridge to the future Future Combat Air System (FCAS) architecture being developed by France and its European partners.

If the agreement is signed by early 2027 as currently envisaged, deliveries of the first fly-away aircraft are expected to begin from 2030 onwards.

Achieve 0% localisation but get the capability to upgrade Rafale in 2035 with Indian mission computers and AESA.

 

[Lolwa]

Achieve 0% localisation but get the capability to upgrade Rafale in 2035 with Indian mission computers and AESA.

We need complete integration capacity of Indian, Israeli and Russian weapons on the rafale.
Need to integrate AMCA and Tejas programe with the rafale and FCAS.

 

[randomradio]

Achieve 0% localisation but get the capability to upgrade Rafale in 2035 with Indian mission computers and AESA.

That's pointless at this time. Whatever configuration the jet comes in, it will be used for the next 25 years in the same configuration, with just block upgrades for the avionics, not a full configuration change. The RBE2 and SPECTRA will stay. If they come with GaAs initially, those will be replaced with GaN over time. It's not an MKIzation.

We need airframe and engine ToT 'cause in case we are ever sanctioned we can support and modify the jet on our own. We can indigenize avionics if it comes to that.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That's pointless at this time. Whatever configuration the jet comes in, it will be used for the next 25 years in the same configuration, with just block upgrades for the avionics, not a full configuration change. The RBE2 and SPECTRA will stay. If they come with GaAs initially, those will be replaced with GaN over time. It's not an MKIzation.

We need airframe and engine ToT 'cause in case we are ever sanctioned we can support and modify the jet on our own. We can indigenize avionics if it comes to that.

We need to be very clear on what is the aim of Rafale procurement.

If it's arresting falling numbers, then setting up the assembly line, and getting some localisation to propose up a pvt line in India- justified imo.

But that 50% localisation during assembly will not help us during conflicts. It can help us to keep the system flying in case of santions, but that's it.

My ideal scenario is the last line which you mentioned. Case in point the integration of Israeli weapons on Mig29K during EP. That's something important.

If there is 10% lower localisation but the French agree to let us tinker with Rafale 10 years down the line, that's a win.

Because 10 years down the line, what avionics and weapons we will have in production, French would be doing R&D on it. Engine and airframe are the things where we will need time to catch up through.

Again views based on my understanding and preferences.

 

[randomradio]

22's a weird number 'cause that's the equivalent of making 24 jets a year, France takes August off.

At 24 jets a year, we will very easily go beyond 200.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We need to be very clear on what is the aim of Rafale procurement.

If it's arresting falling numbers, then setting up the assembly line, and getting some localisation to propose up a pvt line in India- justified imo.

But that 50% localisation during assembly will not help us during conflicts. It can help us to keep the system flying in case of santions, but that's it.

My ideal scenario is the last line which you mentioned. Case in point the integration of Israeli weapons on Mig29K during EP. That's something important.

If there is 10% lower localisation but the French agree to let us tinker with Rafale 10 years down the line, that's a win.

Because 10 years down the line, what avionics and weapons we will have in production, French would be doing R&D on it. Engine and airframe are the things where we will need time to catch up through.

Again views based on my understanding and preferences.

Rafale is no longer viewed as our tip. That's why we are going to procure Su-57s in substantial numbers before AMCA comes online. Rafale is reduce pressure of our falling squadrons and give IAF a reliable Western Workhorse.

 

[randomradio]

We need to be very clear on what is the aim of Rafale procurement.

If it's arresting falling numbers, then setting up the assembly line, and getting some localisation to propose up a pvt line in India- justified imo.

But that 50% localisation during assembly will not help us during conflicts. It can help us to keep the system flying in case of santions, but that's it.

It does both. It arrests falling numbers, and airframe and engine ToT will give us everything needed to keep the jets flying for as long as we like.

My ideal scenario is the last line which you mentioned. Case in point the integration of Israeli weapons on Mig29K during EP. That's something important.

If there is 10% lower localisation but the French agree to let us tinker with Rafale 10 years down the line, that's a win.

Because 10 years down the line, what avionics and weapons we will have in production, French would be doing R&D on it. Engine and airframe are the things where we will need time to catch up through.

Again views based on my understanding and preferences.

We will integrate any weapon we want on the Rafale.

What we won't have access to is the core avionics source codes. Like, you wanna caliberate the radar, sure. But you want to change the way the radar tracks targets or how it handles ECCM, then no. The French will provide all the translation systems necessary to network the jet with IACCS. They will manufacture most of the avionics but parts with short lifecycles will likely be manufactured in India, like the TRMs.

It's unclear what you mean by "tinker."

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

22's a weird number 'cause that's the equivalent of making 24 jets a year, France takes August off.

At 24 jets a year, we will very easily go beyond 200.

In my opinion, the 22 aircraft consist of the 18 we’ve been discussing from the start, plus the 4 two-seaters that will allow the Navy to begin training. These will need to be produced as quickly as possible to save a year on training. If we retrain pilots who know how to land on aircraft carriers with MiG-29s, they’ll be operational on the Rafale as soon as the Rafale M arrives.

Edit: I’m an idiot—I’m mixing up the Navy and the IAF—but anyway, the two-seaters need to be produced first to speed up training!

 

[Ashwin]

In my opinion, the 22 aircraft consist of the 18 we’ve been discussing from the start, plus the 4 two-seaters that will allow the Navy to begin training. These will need to be produced as quickly as possible to save a year on training. If we retrain pilots who know how to land on aircraft carriers with MiG-29s, they’ll be operational on the Rafale as soon as the Rafale M arrives.

Indian Navy already placed order last year for 26 which includes 4 two-seater.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Indian Navy already placed order last year for 26 which includes 4 two-seater.

Yes , my bad!

 

[randomradio]

In my opinion, the 22 aircraft consist of the 18 we’ve been discussing from the start, plus the 4 two-seaters that will allow the Navy to begin training. These will need to be produced as quickly as possible to save a year on training. If we retrain pilots who know how to land on aircraft carriers with MiG-29s, they’ll be operational on the Rafale as soon as the Rafale M arrives.

No, this is the IAF's order. We have still not reached the point where we can combine orders for multiple services on a single import contract yet.

And the production numbers are 92, so 22+92 = 114, not 118. Or it should have been 96.

I think the IN's Rafale Bs will be delivered in 2028 via the 2025 contract. Plus pilots may begin training well before that in France. Generally pre-delivery training is part of the contract.

India’s Rafale Jet Training

A team of six Indian Air Force (IAF) personnel are currently on a training mission in France. The team consists of a fighter pilot, an engineer and four technicians who are being trained on the Rafale jet...

www.sps-aviation.com

A team of six Indian Air Force (IAF) personnel are currently on a training mission in France. The team consists of a fighter pilot, an engineer and four technicians who are being trained on the Rafale jet, first of which will be delivered to the IAF in September 2019.

Indian-standard Rafale jet to be ready by September 2021

3 batches of eight IAF pilots to undergo advanced training on the Indian jets in France

www.thehindu.com

“The first batch is scheduled to be handed over in September. From then to April 2020 three batches of eight IAF pilots along with engineers and technicians will undergo advanced training on the Indian jets in France, a senior source said. “The Indian-standard Rafale with all India Specific Enhancements (ISE) will be operationally ready latest by September 2021.”

So far three IAF pilots and two technical officers trained on the French Air Force Rafales as per the terms of the contract.

The first GTG jet was already flying 2 years after contract, so we could see the IN's first jet next year too.
The first Rafale for India has made its maiden flight on October 30, 2018 in France and is designated RB008.

First delivery in Sept 2019 in France. By that logic first IN jet can be delivered in April-May 2028. And we could have a few pilots trained by then. We could see a carrier takeoff in India by the end of 2028.