Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[TARGET]

Limited funds, but unlimited dreams for Indian defence procurement.

FCAS joint venture is attractive ---> But Russia is now offering similar cooperation with the Su-57 ---> Why do we buy Rafales in large numbers if the challenge is the fifth-generation fighter J-35? ---> We need them because we have issues with squadron numbers and no domestic fighter. LCA Mk2 / LCA MK1 and AMCA ---> But China has already built the 6th-gen fighter.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Limited funds, but unlimited dreams for Indian defence procurement.

FCAS joint venture is attractive ---> But Russia is now offering similar cooperation with the Su-57 ---> Why do we buy Rafales in large numbers if the challenge is the fifth-generation fighter J-35? ---> We need them because we have issues with squadron numbers and no domestic fighter. LCA Mk2 / LCA MK1 and AMCA ---> But China has already built the 6th-gen fighter.

If you read my past posts, I've already said that we are not buying Rafales as our next tip rather our next workhorse. Su-57/60 is our counter for J-20/35 while our 6th gen initiative is to counter J-36/50 in late 2030s/2040s.

 

[randomradio]

Limited funds, but unlimited dreams for Indian defence procurement.

FCAS joint venture is attractive ---> But Russia is now offering similar cooperation with the Su-57 ---> Why do we buy Rafales in large numbers if the challenge is the fifth-generation fighter J-35? ---> We need them because we have issues with squadron numbers and no domestic fighter. LCA Mk2 / LCA MK1 and AMCA ---> But China has already built the 6th-gen fighter.

Su-57 cannot compete with 6th gen. Their JV is pointless. They should develop a new jet.

Rafale is competitive with the J-35.

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/Issue/202605291047513133.pdf

Gehani later said in an interview that the Rafale fulfilled every responsibility it was given during Sindoor. He said it is fully equipped to take on jets like the Chinese J–10 or J–35 and that no one should doubt the aircraft’s capabilities.

China's current lot of 6th gen fighters are not 6th gen, at best 5.5th gen airframes. Way better than 5th, very likely VLO from VHF to Ka, but not full spectrum. The B-21 is a pretty good standard for the level of seamlessness necessary for 6th gen.

 

[TARGET]

If you read my past posts, I've already said that we are not buying Rafales as our next tip rather our next workhorse. Su-57/60 is our counter for J-20/35 while our 6th gen initiative is to counter J-36/50 in late 2030s/2040s.

@Rajput Lion I already countered the point for the depleting number of Indian fighter squadrons; I believe the SU 57 manufacturing and induction will have a gap of 5 to 6 years from the Rafale induction if we plan now. Can we take that risk? It needs to be checked. But again, I am with the point that the Rafale will face difficulties against the J-35, but don't forget the Rafale will have a blanket of the S-400 battery.

Su-57 cannot compete with 6th gen. Their JV is pointless. They should develop a new jet.

Rafale is competitive with the J-35.

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/Issue/202605291047513133.pdf

Gehani later said in an interview that the Rafale fulfilled every responsibility it was given during Sindoor. He said it is fully equipped to take on jets like the Chinese J–10 or J–35 and that no one should doubt the aircraft’s capabilities.

China's current lot of 6th gen fighters are not 6th gen, at best 5.5th gen airframes. Way better than 5th, very likely VLO from VHF to Ka, but not full spectrum. The B-21 is a pretty good standard for the level of seamlessness necessary for 6th gen.

@randomradio If we ask a Su-30MKI pilot, "Can you take down a J-35?" he will give 10 different ways to kill a J-35, but on paper a J-35 is better, and this is not like older Chinese products; current Chinese products are world-class. The Rafale is a good value for money fighter plane for longer durations, including peacetime flight hours; it's not an air dominance fighter for deep penetration attacks. Again, using standoff missiles, the SU-30MKI will bring similar or better firepower but the IAF always keeps an aggressive posture, so 5th-gen fighters should be a must.

The engine program and our indigenous program are the primary problems. God knows why MOD/GOI continually looks outward rather than internally.

 

[Rajput Lion]

@Rajput Lion I already countered the point for the depleting number of Indian fighter squadrons; I believe the SU 57 manufacturing and induction will have a gap of 5 to 6 years from the Rafale induction if we plan now. Can we take that risk? It needs to be checked. But again, I am with the point that the Rafale will face difficulties against the J-35, but don't forget the Rafale will have a blanket of the S-400 battery.


@randomradio If we ask a Su-30MKI pilot, "Can you take down a J-35?" he will give 10 different ways to kill a J-35, but on paper a J-35 is better, and this is not like older Chinese products; current Chinese products are world-class. The Rafale is a good value for money fighter plane for longer durations, including peacetime flight hours; it's not an air dominance fighter for deep penetration attacks. Again, using standoff missiles, the SU-30MKI will bring similar or better firepower but the IAF always keeps an aggressive posture, so 5th-gen fighters should be a must.

The engine program and our indigenous program are the primary problems. God knows why MOD/GOI continually looks outward rather than internally.

Russians have promised deliveries to commence after a year of signing the deal. The dual-seat MKIsed version would take some time
(local production from 2030 onwards) but the single seat Su-57I variant won't take that much time.

 

[screambowl]

It is always the funds. Plus F35 dilemma.

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio If we ask a Su-30MKI pilot, "Can you take down a J-35?" he will give 10 different ways to kill a J-35, but on paper a J-35 is better, and this is not like older Chinese products; current Chinese products are world-class. The Rafale is a good value for money fighter plane for longer durations, including peacetime flight hours; it's not an air dominance fighter for deep penetration attacks. Again, using standoff missiles, the SU-30MKI will bring similar or better firepower but the IAF always keeps an aggressive posture, so 5th-gen fighters should be a must.

The engine program and our indigenous program are the primary problems. God knows why MOD/GOI continually looks outward rather than internally.

No one will claim MKI can deal with J-35 in the IAF. The IAF themselves claim the MKI is not competitive with the Rafale.

But this is the plan. India has already rejected the F-35 and Putin himself has been activated to hardsell the Su-57 to India, which is not going to work for a whole host of reasons. So, until AMCA arrives in its full glory, Rafale will deal with 5th gen threats.

F4 will come with anti-stealth capabilities, and higher survivability than the already impressive F3R.

Post 25 and 28.

Post in thread 'The Rafale and what you know about it.'

Nov 29, 2023

So what makes Spectra special?

We must put on record that there is consistent evidence that Spectra is capable of automatically processing waveforms in real time, a technology that the US does not yet have, as the director of DARPA has admitted. They are only now starting to work on this technology, which we have been using for over a decade. By combining it with SPECTRA's extraordinary localisation capabilities, it makes it possible to create jammers that are far more intelligent than those used by the Growlers. And it is likely to enable "active cancellation".

Indeed...

• Picdelamirand-oil

• 
• 

 

[Hydra]

@Rajput Lion I already countered the point for the depleting number of Indian fighter squadrons; I believe the SU 57 manufacturing and induction will have a gap of 5 to 6 years from the Rafale induction if we plan now. Can we take that risk? It needs to be checked. But again, I am with the point that the Rafale will face difficulties against the J-35, but don't forget the Rafale will have a blanket of the S-400 battery.


@randomradio If we ask a Su-30MKI pilot, "Can you take down a J-35?" he will give 10 different ways to kill a J-35, but on paper a J-35 is better,

No

 

[TARGET]

No one will claim MKI can deal with J-35 in the IAF. The IAF themselves claim the MKI is not competitive with the Rafale.

But this is the plan. India has already rejected the F-35 and Putin himself has been activated to hardsell the Su-57 to India, which is not going to work for a whole host of reasons. So, until AMCA arrives in its full glory, Rafale will deal with 5th gen threats.

F4 will come with anti-stealth capabilities, and higher survivability than the already impressive F3R.

Post 25 and 28.

Post in thread 'The Rafale and what you know about it.'

Nov 29, 2023

So what makes Spectra special?

We must put on record that there is consistent evidence that Spectra is capable of automatically processing waveforms in real time, a technology that the US does not yet have, as the director of DARPA has admitted. They are only now starting to work on this technology, which we have been using for over a decade. By combining it with SPECTRA's extraordinary localisation capabilities, it makes it possible to create jammers that are far more intelligent than those used by the Growlers. And it is likely to enable "active cancellation".

Indeed...

• Picdelamirand-oil

• 
• 

i get that on paper, the Rafale looks way better than the SU-30, but in actual operation Sindoor, it didn't manage to get any air-to-air kills. It ended up doing the same SEAD and DEAD missions as the SU-30 MKI. The S-400 was really the game-changer here. We know the J-35 isn't invisible Plus, the PAF is bringing in the PL-16/PL-17. so it'll be interesting to see how it will performs against the S-400 and VHF radar(Surya) in a data-linked environment. Honestly, investing in the AMCA/MK2 should be the way but GE engines are now pain in axx...

 

[randomradio]

i get that on paper, the Rafale looks way better than the SU-30, but in actual operation Sindoor, it didn't manage to get any air-to-air kills. It ended up doing the same SEAD and DEAD missions as the SU-30 MKI. The S-400 was really the game-changer here. We know the J-35 isn't invisible Plus, the PAF is bringing in the PL-16/PL-17. so it'll be interesting to see how it will performs against the S-400 and VHF radar(Surya) in a data-linked environment. Honestly, investing in the AMCA/MK2 should be the way but GE engines are now pain in axx...

It's said that the Pakistanis were grounded after the only air battle so there were no opportunities for further air combat.

I'm not that worried about GE's engines. We will just continue the programs with imports instead.

 

[Rajput Lion]

i get that on paper, the Rafale looks way better than the SU-30, but in actual operation Sindoor, it didn't manage to get any air-to-air kills. It ended up doing the same SEAD and DEAD missions as the SU-30 MKI. The S-400 was really the game-changer here. We know the J-35 isn't invisible Plus, the PAF is bringing in the PL-16/PL-17. so it'll be interesting to see how it will performs against the S-400 and VHF radar(Surya) in a data-linked environment. Honestly, investing in the AMCA/MK2 should be the way but GE engines are now pain in axx...

Last year's skirmish proved that:

1. Su-30MKI is better air dominance fighter than Rafale.

2. Thanks to variety of Indo/Russian/Israeli weapons MKI could deploy, its air to ground combat prowess was also better than Rafale

3. MKI was the ONLY frontline jet of ours NOT to get shot down.

4. Rafale and its ACT myth got busted once and for all.

5. BrahMos-A & S-400 were two game changing weapons. S-400 ensured that no PAF jet could dare to venture close to IB, by creating a huge NFZ for them and then BrahMos-A brought Pak to its knees with just few strikes.

Having said that big numbers of Rafale is absolutely imperative, not to take down J-20/35/36/50 but to address our falling squadron problem along with being our next workhorse.

Regarding India joining FCAS? Well if French are honest in transfering promised tech and our domestic MIC benefits along with having a 6th gen to take on PLAAF 6th gen threats in early 2040s, then why not

 

[Speedster1]

Last year's skirmish proved that:

1. Su-30MKI is better air dominance fighter than Rafale.

2. Thanks to variety of Indo/Russian/Israeli weapons MKI could deploy, its air to ground combat prowess was also better than Rafale

3. MKI was the ONLY frontline jet of ours NOT to get shot down.

4. Rafale and its ACT myth got busted once and for all.

5. BrahMos-A & S-400 were two game changing weapons. S-400 ensured that no PAF jet could dare to venture close to IB, by creating a huge NFZ for them and then BrahMos-A brought Pak to its knees with just few strikes.

Having said that big numbers of Rafale is absolutely imperative, not to take down J-20/35/36/50 but to address our falling squadron problem along with being our next workhorse.

Regarding India joining FCAS? Well if French are honest in transfering promised tech and our domestic MIC benefits along with having a 6th gen to take on PLAAF 6th gen threats in early 2040s, then why not

The IAF can only push its luck so far with MKI, relying on tactics alone (Balakot and Op Sindoor) and delaying MKI UPG endlessly.

The USAF learned its lesson the hard way having lost an F-15E to Iranian SAM recently. You could call them arrogant for flying too low over hostile territory.

But the fact remains that MKI needs an integrated EW suite urgently, specifically MAWS and towed/expendable decoys like Britecloud.

 

[randomradio]

Last year's skirmish proved that:

1. Su-30MKI is better air dominance fighter than Rafale.

2. Thanks to variety of Indo/Russian/Israeli weapons MKI could deploy, its air to ground combat prowess was also better than Rafale

3. MKI was the ONLY frontline jet of ours NOT to get shot down.

4. Rafale and its ACT myth got busted once and for all.

5. BrahMos-A & S-400 were two game changing weapons. S-400 ensured that no PAF jet could dare to venture close to IB, by creating a huge NFZ for them and then BrahMos-A brought Pak to its knees with just few strikes.

Having said that big numbers of Rafale is absolutely imperative, not to take down J-20/35/36/50 but to address our falling squadron problem along with being our next workhorse.

Regarding India joining FCAS? Well if French are honest in transfering promised tech and our domestic MIC benefits along with having a 6th gen to take on PLAAF 6th gen threats in early 2040s, then why not

MKI was shot down too though. That's why we have 258 operational today.

SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India

Defence News: NEW DELHI: In a move aimed at strengthening the electronic warfare capabilities of the IAF's workhorse fighter jets, the defence ministry has issued a.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

We have 14 losses, 13 to accidents and 1 shot down.

 

[lmaoxd]

MKI was shot down too though. That's why we have 258 operational today.

SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India

Defence News: NEW DELHI: In a move aimed at strengthening the electronic warfare capabilities of the IAF's workhorse fighter jets, the defence ministry has issued a.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

We have 14 losses, 13 to accidents and 1 shot down.

we lost 14 to accidents not 13. I vaguely remember one at the start of this year.

 

[darkflame]

MKI was shot down too though. That's why we have 258 operational today.

SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India

Defence News: NEW DELHI: In a move aimed at strengthening the electronic warfare capabilities of the IAF's workhorse fighter jets, the defence ministry has issued a.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

We have 14 losses, 13 to accidents and 1 shot down.

All 14 aircrafts were lost in accidents.

 

[Rajput Lion]

MKI was shot down too though. That's why we have 258 operational today.

SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India

Defence News: NEW DELHI: In a move aimed at strengthening the electronic warfare capabilities of the IAF's workhorse fighter jets, the defence ministry has issued a.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

We have 14 losses, 13 to accidents and 1 shot down.

Nope. Based upon wreckages that we all saw, one Rafale, one Mig-29UPG., likely one M-2000 and one Heron TP.

MKI was the only jet of ours that dodged all PL-15s and HQ-9 salvos using kinematics, EW along with TVC.

@vstol Jockey summarised MKI vs Rafale all too well for the whole world to see.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The IAF can only push its luck so far with MKI, relying on tactics alone (Balakot and Op Sindoor) and delaying MKI UPG endlessly.

It is easy to blame IAF, but you have no idea how frustrated they are with HAL & Company. Delays to UPG. can't solely be attributed to IAF.

The USAF learned its lesson the hard way having lost an F-15E to Iranian SAM recently. You could call them arrogant for flying too low over hostile territory.

MKI is not F-15E. It's a super-fighter. Yeah, the wording may sound like a fanboy speaking but that's the opinion of those who fly it for a living. 'Nuff said.

But the fact remains that MKI needs an integrated EW suite urgently, specifically MAWS and towed/expendable decoys like Britecloud.

Its current EW is no joke as not only it had defeated AIM-120C5s in the past but now even AESA seeker equipped PL-15s last year too. MKI, keeps on getting minor incremental updates in its software, ESM etc.

 

[randomradio]

we lost 14 to accidents not 13. I vaguely remember one at the start of this year.

We had 12 until 2024 and the 13th one in 2026. It's listed in the MKI's Wiki page. 14 incidents, 13 crashes.

 

[randomradio]

All 14 aircrafts were lost in accidents.View attachment 52253

The one in April 2012 was recovered and repaired. It wasn't a loss.

So 13 losses.

 

[batman]

Nope. Based upon wreckages that we all saw, one Rafale, one Mig-29UPG., likely one M-2000 and one Heron TP.

MKI was the only jet of ours that dodged all PL-15s and HQ-9 salvos using kinematics, EW along with TVC.

@vstol Jockey summarised MKI vs Rafale all too well for the whole world to see.

Do you have that post?