ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

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Without Engine , this project is useless.
Some articles are saying first flight in 2032. 8 year jump already.
No body knows whats going on with Kaveri. And here we dream of developing a state of the art 110kn jet engine when we haven't even developed an engine for Light combat aircraft
 
Without Engine , this project is useless.
Some articles are saying first flight in 2032. 8 year jump already.
No body knows whats going on with Kaveri. And here we dream of developing a state of the art 110kn jet engine when we haven't even developed an engine for Light combat aircraft

with engine project will take another 30 years.
 
CSIR NAL study on RCS reduction using a serpentine intake. This is an old pic.

Screenshot (507).png
 
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA): Gen-5 fighter on track, plan to fly by 2025

With the Indian Air Force (IAF) already operating the Tejas Mark 1 fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) developing the Tejas Mark 2 and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) building the interim Tejas Mark 1A, there have been important breakthroughs in India’s most ambitious fighter programme: the futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Girish Deodhare, who heads ADA, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) agency that oversees the Tejas and AMCA programmes, briefed Business Standard on the capabilities and development of the AMCA – a stealthy, fifth-generation (5-gen), medium weight fighter that is slated to be a match for any adversary in the skies.

“After eight years of design work, we have completed the stealth shaping of the AMCA. We are now building a full scale model of the fighter, in order to measure its ‘radar cross section’ (a measure of an object’s visibility to radar),” said Deodhare.

The ADA chief said the AMCA’s design is now mature and its internal systems are laid out. That clears the way for its detailed design, followed by metal cutting – the symbolic start of constructing a flying prototype.

“The AMCA’s first flight is targeted for 2024-25,” said Deodhare. “We plan to build five prototypes for a flight-testing programme that would take about four years. By 2028-29, we plan to begin series manufacture.

A 5-gen fighter is characterised by four advanced capabilities. It is stealthy, or near-invisible to enemy radar; it can ‘supercruise’, or fly faster than the speed of sound without engaging its engines’ fuel-guzzling afterburners; it has advanced avionics and sensors with network centric operations, coupled with artificial intelligence, to enhance the pilot-aircraft interface, allowing a single pilot to fly and fight the aircraft; and it can detect and engage targets from long distances, outranging its adversaries.

Stealth fighters are most crucial in the opening stages of a war, when they take advantage of their invisibility to enter enemy airspace and strike enemy radars, air bases and control centres. With air superiority thus obtained, “non-stealthy” fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI can fly into enemy airspace, without incurring heavy casualties, to strike targets like roads, railways, airfields, depots and ground forces.

To achieve stealth, a 5-gen fighter is shaped to scatter radar waves, rather than reflect them back. Special materials and paints further reduce radar reflectivity. In stealth mode, a 5-gen fighter conceals its fuel and weapons in an internal bay, since carrying them under its wings, as conventional fighters do, creates protrusions that reflect radar waves and compromise stealth.

Deodhare said that while AMCA would be a 25-tonne fighter, it would have an “all-up-weight” (AUP) of just 20 tonnes in stealth mode, when it would carry just one-and-a-half tonnes of weaponry concealed in internal weapon bays. In “non-stealth mode”, another five tonnes of weaponry or fuel could be carried on external stations, under its wings.

The AMCA would be able to carry up to 6.5 tonnes of fuel in internal tanks. While its operating radius remains secret, a back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates it can easily strike targets 1,000 kilometres away and return to base.

In “non-stealth” mode, it can carry an additional 1,200-1,300 litres in its internal bays, with its weapons load mounted on external, under-wing stations, thus operating as a potent long-range bomber.

A key challenge in the AMCA programme is to develop a new engine, powerful enough to permit super-cruising. For now, AMCA designers are working with twin General Electric (GE) F-414 engines – which is also being used, in a single- engine configuration, to power the Tejas Mark 2.

However, this engine is not powerful enough for super-cruising in all configurations. “Each F-414 engine generates a maximum thrust of 98 KiloNewtons (KN), and in Indian climatic conditions that effectively reduces to 90 KN. We have calculated that an AMCA, with the configuration the IAF has specified, requires a thrust of about 220 KN (in Indian conditions) for super-cruising. That means we need twin engines, each generating 110 KN thrust in Indian conditions,” says Deodhare.

A clutch of DRDO laboratories, led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru, is working to develop the AMCA engine. With the Kaveri engine, GTRE had managed to generate a maximum thrust of 83 KN. Now the target is 50 per cent higher.

Former Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had estimated the AMCA’s development cost at about $4 billion – a major share of which would go into the engine. In 2015, India harnessed American expertise by setting up a “joint working group” (JWG) to co-develop jet engine technology. But on October 24, US Under Secretary of Defence Ellen Lord revealed the JWG had been scrapped since US export control laws safeguarded the technology that the DRDO wanted.

There is also an expectation, so far unrealised, that French engine maker, Safran, could assist with developing a suitable jet engine, as a part of its offset obligations relating to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters.

A key decision in designing the AMCA relates to the trade-off between stealth and manoeuvrability. “As other stealth fighter designers have discovered earlier, the edge matching of surfaces and incorporation of an internal weapons bay that characterises stealth design also compromise the fighter’s aerodynamics, inhibiting its manoeuvrability. The IAF understands that, and has been sitting at the table with ADA in order to arrive at a mutually acceptable blend of performance and stealth,” says Deodhare.

Facilitating this cooperation is the IAF’s new leadership, headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, which includes several officers who have been test pilots for the Tejas programme, and have an in-depth knowledge of the issues.

ADA officials point out that, having already mastered a range of aerospace technologies in the Tejas programme, the AMCA team is free to focus tightly on the Gen-5 challenges.

The technologies yielded by the Tejas programme include: “unstable aerodynamic design” for extra agility; complex control laws and a quadruplex digital flight control system; light composite materials for aero-structures; a glass cockpit with digital instrumentation; an environment control system with an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS); and advanced avionics that help the pilot switch quickly between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles.

Also mastered is the ability to do flight testing of fighter aircraft rapidly, without compromising safety. This experience will help in bringing the AMCA from design to induction without delay.
 
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA): Gen-5 fighter on track, plan to fly by 2025

With the Indian Air Force (IAF) already operating the Tejas Mark 1 fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) developing the Tejas Mark 2 and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) building the interim Tejas Mark 1A, there have been important breakthroughs in India’s most ambitious fighter programme: the futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Girish Deodhare, who heads ADA, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) agency that oversees the Tejas and AMCA programmes, briefed Business Standard on the capabilities and development of the AMCA – a stealthy, fifth-generation (5-gen), medium weight fighter that is slated to be a match for any adversary in the skies.

“After eight years of design work, we have completed the stealth shaping of the AMCA. We are now building a full scale model of the fighter, in order to measure its ‘radar cross section’ (a measure of an object’s visibility to radar),” said Deodhare.

The ADA chief said the AMCA’s design is now mature and its internal systems are laid out. That clears the way for its detailed design, followed by metal cutting – the symbolic start of constructing a flying prototype.

“The AMCA’s first flight is targeted for 2024-25,” said Deodhare. “We plan to build five prototypes for a flight-testing programme that would take about four years. By 2028-29, we plan to begin series manufacture.

A 5-gen fighter is characterised by four advanced capabilities. It is stealthy, or near-invisible to enemy radar; it can ‘supercruise’, or fly faster than the speed of sound without engaging its engines’ fuel-guzzling afterburners; it has advanced avionics and sensors with network centric operations, coupled with artificial intelligence, to enhance the pilot-aircraft interface, allowing a single pilot to fly and fight the aircraft; and it can detect and engage targets from long distances, outranging its adversaries.

Stealth fighters are most crucial in the opening stages of a war, when they take advantage of their invisibility to enter enemy airspace and strike enemy radars, air bases and control centres. With air superiority thus obtained, “non-stealthy” fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI can fly into enemy airspace, without incurring heavy casualties, to strike targets like roads, railways, airfields, depots and ground forces.

To achieve stealth, a 5-gen fighter is shaped to scatter radar waves, rather than reflect them back. Special materials and paints further reduce radar reflectivity. In stealth mode, a 5-gen fighter conceals its fuel and weapons in an internal bay, since carrying them under its wings, as conventional fighters do, creates protrusions that reflect radar waves and compromise stealth.

Deodhare said that while AMCA would be a 25-tonne fighter, it would have an “all-up-weight” (AUP) of just 20 tonnes in stealth mode, when it would carry just one-and-a-half tonnes of weaponry concealed in internal weapon bays. In “non-stealth mode”, another five tonnes of weaponry or fuel could be carried on external stations, under its wings.

The AMCA would be able to carry up to 6.5 tonnes of fuel in internal tanks. While its operating radius remains secret, a back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates it can easily strike targets 1,000 kilometres away and return to base.

In “non-stealth” mode, it can carry an additional 1,200-1,300 litres in its internal bays, with its weapons load mounted on external, under-wing stations, thus operating as a potent long-range bomber.

A key challenge in the AMCA programme is to develop a new engine, powerful enough to permit super-cruising. For now, AMCA designers are working with twin General Electric (GE) F-414 engines – which is also being used, in a single- engine configuration, to power the Tejas Mark 2.

However, this engine is not powerful enough for super-cruising in all configurations. “Each F-414 engine generates a maximum thrust of 98 KiloNewtons (KN), and in Indian climatic conditions that effectively reduces to 90 KN. We have calculated that an AMCA, with the configuration the IAF has specified, requires a thrust of about 220 KN (in Indian conditions) for super-cruising. That means we need twin engines, each generating 110 KN thrust in Indian conditions,” says Deodhare.

A clutch of DRDO laboratories, led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru, is working to develop the AMCA engine. With the Kaveri engine, GTRE had managed to generate a maximum thrust of 83 KN. Now the target is 50 per cent higher.

Former Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had estimated the AMCA’s development cost at about $4 billion – a major share of which would go into the engine. In 2015, India harnessed American expertise by setting up a “joint working group” (JWG) to co-develop jet engine technology. But on October 24, US Under Secretary of Defence Ellen Lord revealed the JWG had been scrapped since US export control laws safeguarded the technology that the DRDO wanted.

There is also an expectation, so far unrealised, that French engine maker, Safran, could assist with developing a suitable jet engine, as a part of its offset obligations relating to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters.

A key decision in designing the AMCA relates to the trade-off between stealth and manoeuvrability. “As other stealth fighter designers have discovered earlier, the edge matching of surfaces and incorporation of an internal weapons bay that characterises stealth design also compromise the fighter’s aerodynamics, inhibiting its manoeuvrability. The IAF understands that, and has been sitting at the table with ADA in order to arrive at a mutually acceptable blend of performance and stealth,” says Deodhare.

Facilitating this cooperation is the IAF’s new leadership, headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, which includes several officers who have been test pilots for the Tejas programme, and have an in-depth knowledge of the issues.

ADA officials point out that, having already mastered a range of aerospace technologies in the Tejas programme, the AMCA team is free to focus tightly on the Gen-5 challenges.

The technologies yielded by the Tejas programme include: “unstable aerodynamic design” for extra agility; complex control laws and a quadruplex digital flight control system; light composite materials for aero-structures; a glass cockpit with digital instrumentation; an environment control system with an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS); and advanced avionics that help the pilot switch quickly between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles.

Also mastered is the ability to do flight testing of fighter aircraft rapidly, without compromising safety. This experience will help in bringing the AMCA from design to induction without delay.
Ahh.....darn it. I was going to post that.
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Here's the prize for posting first :
1576666816835.png
 
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At 12T empty, 17m length and a massive TWR, it will be a crappy aircraft if it doesn't touch 30T.

Rafale weighs 9.5T and hits 25T at MTOW. That's the gold standard. The difference between MTOW and empty weight is 2.6 times. By the same standards, with 12T at empty AMCA should be 31.6T. We can relax that to 28-30T instead, since AMCA is designed more for stealth, so we will have less hardpoints.

Higher MTOW = Bigger payload.

But from the brochure, it suggests that the AMCA's total payload will only be 6.5T, including internal bays. And the external hardpoints is only 4 in total carrying 5T. Which will give it an MTOW of only 25T.

If external stores is only 5T, then I suppose one wing point is 1.75T and the other is 0.75T. Normally, they should be 2T each, so you have an external payload of 8T. With 2T payload on each hardpoint, you can carry 4 2200L tanks externally, which Rafale can easily do.

Internal stores is advertised as 1.5T, which again, should be 2.5T, which will allow at least an F-35 class payload capability, with cruise missiles and large bombs.

With 10.5T payload, you get 29T MTOW. With 6.5T payload, you get 25T MTOW.

At 30T MTOW, AMCA will have a TWR of 0.73, while Rafale's TWR will be 0.6 at 25T. So AMCA has more than enough thrust to cross 30T MTOW.
Deodhare said that while AMCA would be a 25-tonne fighter, it would have an “all-up-weight” (AUP) of just 20 tonnes in stealth mode, when it would carry just one-and-a-half tonnes of weaponry concealed in internal weapon bays. In “non-stealth mode”, another five tonnes of weaponry or fuel could be carried on external stations, under its wings.

It's definitely not going to touch 30ton.
 
It's definitely not going to touch 30ton.

That's because it's not a very good design, as Vstol has already pointed out. The payload is too less for an aircraft of its size and weight.

Look at the extremes for payload at possible MTOW.
30-(12+6.5) = 11.5T
25-(12+6.5) = 6.5T

The payload is the same as MWF, Gripen E, Mirage 2000, Mig-29M etc. Even with 8T payload, the MTOW should be 12+6.5+8 = 26.5T. I have already explained how much the AMCA has to carry externally for it to reach 8T in total.

The AMCA should have 10-10.5T payload, ie, 2-2.5T internal and 8T external. This will give MTOW of 29T.

But the good news is it will at least have a lot of range, even if it can only carry 1.5T internal and 5T external.
 
Why the AMCA can only pull 8Gs??
Because it is too long an aircraft. Long back on another forum I had written about the formula which I created myself for calculating the empty weight of an aircraft design. Instead of going for many complicated formulas, i found a very simple arithmetic progression to predict the empty weight of a design. That formula has withstood the test of time. And AMCA again substantiates it.
From whatever is emerging about AMCA, I can say that it is yet another dud being created by ADA and they want to make up for poor aerodynamics with thrust. If you can't fly a stealth aircraft higher to about 60K feet and give it a 6G capability between 30k to 35k feet, dump the design. AMCA will fail to achieve these parameters even with such high thrust because the G loading is a function of thrust and stall speed at that altitude. AMCA has pathetic internal weapon load and large wingloading to get those parameters correct.
 
Because it is too long an aircraft. Long back on another forum I had written about the formula which I created myself for calculating the empty weight of an aircraft design. Instead of going for many complicated formulas, i found a very simple arithmetic progression to predict the empty weight of a design. That formula has withstood the test of time. And AMCA again substantiates it.
From whatever is emerging about AMCA, I can say that it is yet another dud being created by ADA and they want to make up for poor aerodynamics with thrust. If you can't fly a stealth aircraft higher to about 60K feet and give it a 6G capability between 30k to 35k feet, dump the design. AMCA will fail to achieve these parameters even with such high thrust because the G loading is a function of thrust and stall speed at that altitude. AMCA has pathetic internal weapon load and large wingloading to get those parameters correct.

Why do we need to climb 60 K feet


If we read about F 35 , in addition to Stealth
Its Avionics are the Best in the World

Not only it protects Itself from Hostile Radars and Emitters , it is also able to launch
Electronic Attacks like Growlers FA 18
 
That's because it's not a very good design, as Vstol has already pointed out. The payload is too less for an aircraft of its size and weight.

Look at the extremes for payload at possible MTOW.
30-(12+6.5) = 11.5T
25-(12+6.5) = 6.5T

The payload is the same as MWF, Gripen E, Mirage 2000, Mig-29M etc. Even with 8T payload, the MTOW should be 12+6.5+8 = 26.5T. I have already explained how much the AMCA has to carry externally for it to reach 8T in total.

The AMCA should have 10-10.5T payload, ie, 2-2.5T internal and 8T external. This will give MTOW of 29T.

But the good news is it will at least have a lot of range, even if it can only carry 1.5T internal and 5T external.
why to carry any weapon when we can fry any electronics with lazors ....lol ..