ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Rajput Lion]

Only 10dB RCS reduction

*More than* 10dB RCS reduction

Anyways here is something interesting. IIT Kanpur has developed a transparent meta-material that is going to be used on our future/upgraded fighter jets that also absorbs RF waves between 90%-98%.

Link: Protective Layer for Microwave Metamaterial Absorbers


Here are some interesting quotes from the research paper:

• The new invention can be applied directly to optical transparent windows, making them capable of absorbing over 90% of incident electromagnetic waves at microwave frequencies.
• This invention has great potential in defense for stealth technology and in commercial sector for reducing electromagnetic radiation in buildings and houses by deploying it on windows.
• The metamaterial absorber remains robust even under harsh environmental conditions and rigorous handling, without compromising its microwave performance over time.

Some more:

Notably, coating the absorber led to a significant increase in absorption efficiency within microwave frequency range, rising from 95% to an impressive 98%.

So we've developed stealth Paints, Composites, Laminates and even meta-materials than can absorb well over 90% RF waves(in various frequencies), almost upto 98-99%.

It's really remarkable how fast we've caught up to the West. Our AMCA is going to be one very very stealthy bird. Just sort the engine FFS and we're all set.

 

[Tatvamasi]

It's really remarkable how fast we've caught up to the West. Our AMCA is going to be one very very stealthy bird. Just sort the engine FFS and we're all set.

Yes, it may seem "remarkable" on paper. However, when it comes to delivering a solution to the military, it is just a decade late.

 

[marich01]

AMCA bubble canopy rfp out.

 

[Speedster1]

AMCA bubble canopy rfp out.

It's not a single piece canopy apparently. The doc mentions a windshield+canopy arrangement.

Most likely, the canopy itself hinges sideways like the Rafale and Tejas Mk1 and not towards the front as on F35/FC31 or the humble MiG21.

 

[HariPrasad]

The improvements/latest innovations in RAM paint for AMCA shall also greatly benefit all our 4+ gen fighter.

Very correct. This will go into MWF to reduce its RCS very low level and at par with contemporary European fighters. US's plane are either stealth or comes with unimpressive RCS. F-16, F-18 etc has bad RCS level. Rafale and Eurofighter has very low RCS. MWF will fall in this category.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Very correct. This will go into MWF to reduce its RCS very low level and at par with contemporary European fighters.

With modern RAM we should achieve better frontal RCS than the Euro-Canards, all of which are among 0.05m2-0.1m2 clean frontal.

US's plane are either stealth or comes with unimpressive RCS. F-16, F-18 etc has bad RCS level. Rafale and Eurofighter has very low RCS. MWF will fall in this category.

No buddy, actually US legacy planes having bad RCS is just a myth. They have 'Have Glass' program to reduce the RCS of F-16s. Modern F-16 have way less RCS than legacy ones. Even current F-15EX isn't as bad as it's portrayed in the media.


And talking about their 4.5gen Super Hornet? Well, if you compare it with other 4.5gens then none go as far as it to reduce their RCS. Radar Blockers, canted tails et al. Its clean frontal aspect RCS is also in Euro-Canards' ball-park, i.e., ~0.1m2. Its side RCS could even be lower because of use of canted tails. So you see, even American legacy/upgraded 4/4+ gens have equally good RCS as compared to their European counterparts.

PS: Not only LCA MK2, but TEDBF will also benefit from all these newer RAM paints/sprays/laminates developed for AMCA programme along with our legacy 4.5gen like MKI/Tejas and 4th gen like Mig-29/M-2000 etc.

 

[HariPrasad]

With modern RAM we should achieve better frontal RCS than the Euro-Canards, all of which are among 0.05m2-0.1m2 clean frontal.

I doubt that. However, if we can go below 0.1 M Sq RCS (Frontal), it will be a great thing. In this case We shall be able to score first hit against any Pakistani Plane and first hit against any Chinese plane except J20. MWF shall have advantage against all Pakistani and Chinese plane in BVR combat except J20. Even within Visible range, MWF can do batter because of batter EW, and batter missiles like MICA, ASRAAM, Python V etc. However, if fight happens at closer distance, Chinese planes like Su 30, Su 35 and J10 C will have edge because of TVC.

No buddy, actually US legacy planes having bad RCS is just a myth. They have 'Have Glass' program to reduce the RCS of F-16s. Modern F-16 have way less RCS than legacy ones. Even current F-15EX isn't as bad as it's portrayed in the media.

This is generally true for any derivative of Original. However, when F-16 was designed, it was not designed keeping RCS in mind. This is true for F18 as well. However, F15 has a batter stealth. I agree with you. I also agree with you that newer version of F 16 has a batter stealth than older one. However, in spite of that, RCS of F 16 shall remain significantly higher than Euro canards and MWF.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I doubt that. However, if we can go below 0.1 M Sq RCS (Frontal), it will be a great thing. In this case We shall be able to score first hit against any Pakistani Plane and first hit against any Chinese plane except J20. MWF shall have advantage against all Pakistani and Chinese plane in BVR combat except J20. Even within Visible range, MWF can do batter because of batter EW, and batter missiles like MICA, ASRAAM, Python V etc. However, if fight happens at closer distance, Chinese planes like Su 30, Su 35 and J10 C will have edge because of TVC.

Tejas MK1A is around 0.3m2 and very close to the Euro-Canards in clean frontal RCS. With newer materials, MK2/TEDBF may even be lower than that. So 0.1m2 clean or even below is definitely a possibility.

About dogfight, well MWF will have Rafale like Close Couple Canards, so it'll have a very high Instantaneous turn rate and even a great Sustained turn rate. Its post stall maneuverability also should be better though can't match TVC planes there. I think, it shall excel not ONLY in BVR against PLAAF/PAF jets but also do well in WVR with IR missiles or guns only dogfight.

This is generally true for any derivative of Original. However, when F-16 was designed, it was not designed keeping RCS in mind. This is true for F18 as well. However, F15 has a batter stealth. I agree with you. I also agree with you that newer version of F 16 has a batter stealth than older one. However, in spite of that, RCS of F 16 shall remain significantly higher than Euro canards and MWF.

'Have Glass' is a continuous program. They continue to apply next-gen RAM onto their Vipers(especially Wild Weasels ones). The latest F-16V will also have very close frontal RCS with the aforementioned jets.

Anyways, as HVT sir once said. All the LO/RO planes that fly with 1 or 2 drop tanks(like our Tejas or Rafale) will have similar RCS to an MKI with 6 missiles. External weapons and tanks are biggest enemy of RCS because of 'corner reflections' and wave creeps.

For true stealth that is really effective, IWB is a must.

 

[HariPrasad]

Tejas MK1A is around 0.3m2 and very close to the Euro-Canards in clean frontal RCS. With newer materials, MK2/TEDBF may even be lower than that. So 0.1m2 clean or even below is definitely a possibility.

True that. If we are able to achieve 0.1 Sq meter RCS, UTTAM/ELTA 2052 can detect F-16, JF-17, SU 30 MKK, SU 35 and J10 atleast 30 to 40 KM further distance than Chinese radar can detect MWF. This will give it a first shoot capability and actual hitting will depend on no escape zone of BVR. If we integrate meteor, Chances of hitting will be higher. If we shoot Astra MK2 (Which has almost same range as Meteor), Chances of neutralizing enemy Plane shall be lower compared to Meteor (Probably as believe that Meteor is a batter missile with longer No escape zone) .

About dogfight, well MWF will have Rafale like Close Couple Canards, so it'll a very high Instantaneous turn rate and even a great Sustained turn rate. Its post stall maneuverability also should be better though can't match TVC planes there. I think, it shall excel not ONLY in BVR against PLAAF/PAF jets but also do well in WVR with IR missiles or guns only dogfight.

The great advantage which Tejas MK1/MWF will have is that it will be equipped with some great short range missiles such as ASRAAM and Meteor. They can be fired at enemy plane without even MWF pointing towards enemy plane. They can be fired even if MWF nose is not pointed towards enemy plane. They can be guided at enemy plane by just looking at it with the help of helmet guidance. As these are very high G missiles, they can change directions quickly and go towards enemy missiles. Chinese short-range missiles are inferior in IRR seeker and in maneuverability. They are low G missile and easy to Jam with EW or Chef and flare. only advantage they will enjoy shall be TVC. It will give them advantage in close combat and gun fight.

 

[Gautam]

@marich01 can you find this tender. AMCA's canopy:

 

[marich01]

@marich01 can you find this tender. AMCA's canopy:
View attachment 37468

Yes its right few posts above, rfp doc with it. post 723

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851151505967173659

 

[marich01]

AMCA ECS related material procurement rfp is issued

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1857371240194830765

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860594280911213048

 

[Gautam]

On Tuesday, Indian Institute of Technology Kanpur (IIT-K) announced a breakthrough in stealth technology, which would make combat systems like tanks and fighter aircraft invisible, or near-invisible to enemy radar.

Designated a “meta-material surface cloaking system” (MSCS), this has been named the Anālakṣhya by its inventors in IIT-K. It is of major interest to the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) in its development of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) -- a “stealth fighter” that is being engineered to be near-invisible to the enemy’s air defence radar.

https://www.business-standard.com/e...rcraft-invisible-to-radar-124112701035_1.html

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

*More than* 10dB RCS reduction
Anyways here is something interesting. IIT Kanpur has developed a transparent meta-material that is going to be used on our future/upgraded fighter jets that also absorbs RF waves between 90%-98%.
Link: Protective Layer for Microwave Metamaterial Absorbers
Here are some interesting quotes from the research paper:
Some more:
So we've developed stealth Paints, Composites, Laminates and even meta-materials than can absorb well over 90% RF waves(in various frequencies), almost upto 98-99%.
It's really remarkable how fast we've caught up to the West. Our AMCA is going to be one very very stealthy bird. Just sort the engine FFS and we're all set.

Very correct. This will go into MWF to reduce its RCS very low level and at par with contemporary European fighters. US's plane are either stealth or comes with unimpressive RCS. F-16, F-18 etc has bad RCS level. Rafale and Eurofighter has very low RCS. MWF will fall in this category.

With modern RAM we should achieve better frontal RCS than the Euro-Canards, all of which are among 0.05m2-0.1m2 clean frontal.
No buddy, actually US legacy planes having bad RCS is just a myth. They have 'Have Glass' program to reduce the RCS of F-16s. Modern F-16 have way less RCS than legacy ones. Even current F-15EX isn't as bad as it's portrayed in the media.
And talking about their 4.5gen Super Hornet? Well, if you compare it with other 4.5gens then none go as far as it to reduce their RCS. Radar Blockers, canted tails et al. Its clean frontal aspect RCS is also in Euro-Canards' ball-park, i.e., ~0.1m2. Its side RCS could even be lower because of use of canted tails. So you see, even American legacy/upgraded 4/4+ gens have equally good RCS as compared to their European counterparts.
PS: Not only LCA MK2, but TEDBF will also benefit from all these newer RAM paints/sprays/laminates developed for AMCA programme along with our legacy 4.5gen like MKI/Tejas and 4th gen like Mig-29/M-2000 etc.

I doubt that. However, if we can go below 0.1 M Sq RCS (Frontal), it will be a great thing. In this case We shall be able to score first hit against any Pakistani Plane and first hit against any Chinese plane except J20. MWF shall have advantage against all Pakistani and Chinese plane in BVR combat except J20. Even within Visible range, MWF can do batter because of batter EW, and batter missiles like MICA, ASRAAM, Python V etc. However, if fight happens at closer distance, Chinese planes like Su 30, Su 35 and J10 C will have edge because of TVC.
This is generally true for any derivative of Original. However, when F-16 was designed, it was not designed keeping RCS in mind. This is true for F18 as well. However, F15 has a batter stealth. I agree with you. I also agree with you that newer version of F 16 has a batter stealth than older one. However, in spite of that, RCS of F 16 shall remain significantly higher than Euro canards and MWF.

> At this time it sounds very exciting that IIT &/or DoD developed RAM which can absorb 99% RF waves that too of multiple wavelengths. Knowing & observing the R&D of USA since 1950s, i've mixed feelings about this new RAM. But if true then this might be giving USA loose motion , it should panic them like hell. It should actually make a mockery of their best platforms like B-2 costing 2 Bn US$.
> IDK how much % the geometry & RAM contribute to reduce RCS. Some people say that w/o RAM the geometry alone reduces RCS by 80%. So we can't just blanket any jet in RAM & ignore its geometry.
> In the EM spectrum there are countless RF wavelengths which can be generated. And the modern radars use frequency hopping 1000s of times per second, just like Bluetooth. So absorbing all the wavelengths sounds skeptical. China claims of having developed a RAM which can absorb 100% of all wavelengths, convert it to heat & dissipate it.
> Ultimately it comes down to RCS returned. In 1990s the F-22 achieved 0.00015 sqm, so today after 35 years what USA must have achieved or planning for their 6gen? That's what we have to compare with. May be NGAD prototype has even lower RCS.
> So when the MLUed 4.5gen reduces its RCS from 1 sqm to 0.1 sqm, it is still pathetic, 1000 times more than 0.0001 sqm. there is nothing to be sentimental & happy for any 4.5gen jet around the world, they have become "senior citizens", their MU is like a prosthetic.
> Hence we should stop comparing with Pakistan & puttig our requirement as per them otherwise our R&D will never get out of ditch.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Nice renders. But he is taking too much time to showcase the existing features like DAS, some antennas, etc.
Does he follow official progress only or showcases his own ideas too? Is he present here or any forum?

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1835167622419431752

six bvraams in IWB, this is definitely needed, we should be working on clipped astra variant which can fit inside IWB and also we should provide additional weapons points inside IWB for future CUDA type smaller AAMs.

Our older discussion on number of AAMs in IWB of F-35s and KFX-21

Post in thread 'Korean KF-21 Boramae & Turkish KAAN Fighter Developments'

Apr 29, 2024

All of them have or will have four not more than that.

f-35 for sure is going to have this adapter called sidekick allowing six amraams in IWB, not sure of korean one, but that tweet suggests IWB version of it will carry 6 amraams.

F-35 Closer To Carrying Six AIM-120 Missiles Internally

Known as Sidekick, the upgrade will give F-35As and Cs the ability to go from four to six AIM-120 missiles in their internal bays.

www.twz.com

• Asterion Moloc

He mentioned IDAX24 & ex-tarangshakti-2024. Do we have any official link confirming 6 AAMs in IWB?

Some static models, CAD, infographic showcase Astr-Mk1 AAM with large fins. Clearly this version is not fit for IWB.

With a little tight fit, 2 SAAW bombs might fit in.
If Astr-1 are staggered then IWB needs to be elongated, but then also neither # of Astr-1 AAMs nor SAAW bombs increase.
Longer the fins of a weapon, longer is the IWB extension required.
If 2 Astr-1 AAMs are removed then total 8 SAAW bombs can be fitted.
W/o any AAMs, 12 SAAW bombs can be loaded.

Similar is the case with Astr-2 AAM with short fins.

There is another CAD online showing that only 4 Astr-2 AAMs or 8 SAAW bombs can fit in.
With little tight adjustment perhaps 2 folding-fin SAAW bombs can be pushed in with 4 Astr-2 AAMs, or 6 SAAW bombs with 2 Astr-2 AAMs.
Maximum 12 SAAW bombs might fit in. Staggering the AAMs would require lengthening the IWB little but that doesn't increase capacity.
If 4 AAMs & 4 SAAW bombs are arranged then it would require to lengthen the IWB more.
But 6 AAMs doesn't seem to fit in.

 

[marich01]

I can not think of a situation where IAF might want or need 3 astras in a single patrol. Like the iwb and normal outer station carriage capacity it will always be 2 max which is enough since our jets are patrolling within our airspace mostly plus the IOR, Arabian sea and adjacent areas etc. This very long haul area still can be covered with 2 astras. Hence quite sufficient for practical use imo. Even for wartime use you won't want your stealth jet to do more than what they are supposed to do in a single mission.