AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?

The Rafale will more than fill the carrier based strike and AD role on its own. But we have an opportunity to leverage hard won design lessons from the NLCA Mk1 and reuse it on the TEDBF. Otherwise, we're looking at a 10+ year development timeline by which time the J31 could be flying off PLAN carriers in numbers.

In any case, the TEDBF, in its current avatar will only provide incremental performance advantages over an F4 Rafale. I just think the TEDBF would be late to the party but the time she's ready.

India s latest development in engine is Kaveri.
Only 2 aircraft types have the potential to fly them.. TEDBF & HLFT - 42. One is not yet sanctioned to proceed. Other is still in paper.

Hope atleast one of these TE platforms are ready by the time engine is certified.
 
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The dry version of the Kaveri flying is a near term prospect. The Ghatak UCAV programme is gaining some momentum. About the AB version, there's no telling when approvals will be given, tests will be completed and first flight might happen.
 
The poster is very old. MKI UPG. is still a work in progress. DL, Jodhpur has developed stealth RAP(radar absorbent paint) that is to be applied across entire airframe, intakes, compressor face etc. and it reduces RCS of legacy jets "significantly". MKI UPG. will even get superior RAP than what is available now.
Link: Radar Absorbing Paint applied on Mig-29 | DRDO working on 6th Gen engine technology
They developed 'Adrishya", "NiRaLa", etc also. But next step is should it be applied everywhere or selected areas. What would be cost & durability of it? Today stealth from every angle matters bcoz stealth fighters have pack-hunter type tactics & a fighter jet in general will obviously not fly in 1 orientation only.
Another aspect as we know is RAS/Geometry, that contributes most of the RCS reduction on outside as well as inside serpentine intake tunnel. So only applying RAM to 1st fan stage in a straight exposed tunnel would not suffice.
USA applied composites to 4th gen F-15,16,18, may be some RAM too & reduced their RCS say 10x less from 1 sqm to 0.1 sqm, sounds good but as radars & missile seekers have also improved so both side of Sword & Shield are balanced, net benefit may be ZERO. But F-22 has RCS 0.00015 sqm & F-35 has 0.0015 sqm. Now that's ahead of the enemy's Sword.
So my point is that when after MLUs also don't help beyond a limit bcoz of the airframe, a gen leap occurs with a new airframe. All global Su-3X airframes might have got or will be getting their last effective set of MLUs.

About Infra-Red signature, let's what our locally manufactured AL-31FP can achieve!
Here also they will have to look at cost of LO RF/IR nozzle panels + composite skin. But intake will remain exposed.

Problem is most people compare stage-1 Su-57(with AL-41F1 engines) with F-22/35 or J-20. It's has now got AL-51F1 engines installed that have much less RCS/IRS due to radar-blockers at both front/rear and much advance materials. They're in process of developing F-22 like flat nozzles too. Even now Su-57M with AL-51F1 engines has got serrated LOAN nozzles which reduce rear RCS significantly over previous version.
If Su-57 with LEVCONS is not stealthy, then how could J-20 be with its canards? Frontally Su-57 is as stealthy as Raptor(-40dBsm RCS in X-Band). From side/rear slighlty less.
They say that both of them are not stealthy enough like F-22 & F-35 which i think is true & b/w them J-20 could be slightly better. Honestly, i can't ignore China just bcoz we hate them, they are copy-cats, etc. Ultimately a country has to be defended & there is no morality in espionage. hey are ahead of us in everything. Russia has been struggling badly with Su-57 even after being a communist economy & a big energy supplier. By this time entire world expected 200+ Su-57 at least.

Anyways, the blocker is not a simple grill. It is like a special tranceiver antenna which absorbs certain wavelengths & may also actively cancel out some range.
I saw some diagrams but perhaps a combo of multiple things are required to handle different wavelengths -
- Intake shape & size
- Serpentine tunnel
- Internal RAM lining
- Blocker

1724089218536.jpeg

1724090152092.png


F-22 & F-35 are also using the combo.
1724089445429.png

1724089491618.png

1724089498346.png
 
That's a good analysis looking at our Kumbhakaran GoI/MoD/DoD & so many social, political, financial, industrial problems.

Concept, Statements, RFI:
> RFI & following works are official thing under which they will have to do & show something. IAF made 1 line statement that they have roadmap of 6gen, that's it, that could be AHCA. But someone need to ask them upfront bluntly what is their vision at least.
- After AMCA MK1, they will be busy with AMCA MK2, TEDBF, UCAVs, CATS.
- Super-Sukhoi upgrade is being said to take another decade & after that also its IRS & RCS can't be reduced bcoz of airframe design. So if they really wan't to keep it till 2055 then they can & have to field it against Su-30 MKK, J-11, J-16, Su-35-S & other 4.5gen jets J-10C, JF-17.
- But until our people stop comparing with Pakistan & China, it is impossible to bridge gap with West. USA didn't compare itself with South American countries.
- Conceptualization is always in the mind. My college senior in early 2000s who worked on LCA told us about desire on medium & later a heavy jet like Su-3X. Who knows they might be talking since the days of F-15, MiG-25, Su-27 when our DoD units were stalled for import culture.

Engine:
>IDK how much time it took to make all the good engines so far, i'll have to do homework. If it takes 20-25yrs for a heavy fighter class jet engine then our effort should start today.
- People didn't want to use AL-31 engine for R&D stating its bad quality but they are proud & sentimental about Su-30MKI with huge RCS & IRS, using the same bad quality engine. Making just the AHCA prototype with AL-31 shouldn't have been a problem. F-16IN was offered with F110-GE-132A engine with dry/wet thrust of 84/145 KN. We are trying to deal for F404, F414 but IDK if we tried to deal for F110 type engine.
-The JV program should not focus only on F414 replacement for AMCA, TEDBF, MWF. If we can get a VCE or high thrust engine by self/JV/import by 2040 then AMCA can also be inflated to AHCA MK1, just like Tejas MK1 LCA is getting inflated to Tejas MK2 MWF. AMCA can reamin LSP till 1st squad of AHCA.
Tejas MK1 = LCA
Tejas Mk2 = MWF with no naval variant due to 1 engine, hence TEDBF.
XXXXX MK1 = AMCA LSP
XXXXX MK2 = AHCA MK1 with naval variant TEDBF 2.0

Navy:
>The Naval AHCA will definitely be dependent on a flat-top carrier like you said, perhaps with EMC (Electro Magnetic Catapult) but we can test the jet on ground & keep it ready for production when the carrier gets built.

AHCA profile vision:
> i'm not expecting AHCA to be 7gen which could be fully unmanned, needs different thread. 2 adjacant gens overlap & serve together by say 2-3 decades at least. USA inducted 5gen in 2010s. If 1st squads of 6gen get inducted in 2040s then 7gen should be expected to get inducted in 2070s. And we would do it much later, if our country remains stable. We don't even know what would be outline of 7gen, how to defeat 6gen, counter DEW, etc.
> I am certainly not expecting AHCA to reach 50Km/164,000Ft or become a Trans-Atmospheric Vehicle (TAV).
-The SSTO-STS shuttle was so costly & after Columbia disaster it was scrapped. There was no military version of STS & no follow-on plan so far.
-Beyond 55-60 Kft full mil power flight using turbofans becomes challenging.
-We operated MiG-25 which could sustain flight at 68-78K ft. with 2-4 missiles but using afterburner. The design cruising speed was Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h) with partial afterburner for just 5 minutes. Max. range at Mach-2.3 was 1,600Km.
-Later, Russians built MiG-31 which could go upto 82K ft. but with afterburner.
-So using afterburner at high altitude & increasing IRS will defeat stealth idea.

By this thread i'm speculating only on getting a common fuselage AF+Navy jet for Su-30MKI replacement & new TEDBF by 2050.

Although IAF may have concepts in mind, I think they will keep changing their minds until new information is revealed to them. The industry will have to lead that, they can't do it on their own. They should have a general idea up to AMCA and its drones; Ghatak, FUFA, ISR drone, EW drone, tanker drone etc. Beyond that is anybody's guess.

Developing our own engine requires materials research for 30+ years before beginning a program. We have been doing that since the 80s, so we should have something to show for it today. F414 will eventually have Indian hot parts, so we could have something by next decade. So technologies developed in the last 15 years could end up on AHCA's engine. The Chinese materials developed in the 60s were used in the WS-10 in the 90s. And then getting that right, testing it and certifying it will take 20 years. The Russians took 22 years to develop and field Su-57's Type 30. AMCA's engine is simpler, it will use technologies that already exist in the West, to the point of being introduced by the end of the decade. For example, the F414's new CMC core or SCAF demonstrator's 11T M88 version.

The replacement cycle is very long. MKI, MRFA, LCA Mk2 and AMCA are 50 years. LCA Mk1/A is at 30-40 years, the same as Mig-21. So LCA Mk1/A and MKI will need replacements from 2055. AMCA and MRFA will need replacements from 2085. Mig-29 and M2000 are also on a 50-year cycle, with replacements coming in from 2037 or so. So after AMCA, the way we develop fighters will change completely, similar to US and Russia.

As for 7th gen, with stratospheric capability, such aircraft are gonna come in soon. Russia's PAK DP and US' SR-72 will be among the first. China could follow them. ISRO's developing scram-jet based RLV with more advanced capability by 2030, which means DRDO/ADA should be able to replicate some of it by 2040 for military use. Once PAK DP comes in, the Americans and Chinese will follow-through with their own designs very quickly. We could actually end up 15 years behind them due to AHCA's 2055 deadline. Dassault has also suggested developing such technologies.
 
I am speculating that this project is a fantasy.

Yeah, there's nothing beyond AMCA right now. Just very early concepts in the NGAD/FCAS class; tailless, finless stealth designs; long range, short range, ASF, strike etc. Nothing concrete like the others have.
 
The Su57 is still WIP. Its intake is such that the engine compressor is exposed and the rear is distinctly non-stealthy. The levcons otoh blend into the wing and likely have a minimal impact on RCS by themselves.

The Su-57 uses a radar blocker, has an S-duct and can cover its blades with a variable inlet.

botzzon_orig.jpg


Probably lets it done when it's not supercruising at mach 2.

Yes, the LEVCONs are part of the wing, so the effective change in RCS is almost the same as the wing. It doesn't add to the RCS.
In any case, the TEDBF, in its current avatar will only provide incremental performance advantages over an F4 Rafale. I just think the TEDBF would be late to the party but the time she's ready.

That's fine. It's being developed for a 40-year service life. So 2075. It's more than sufficient for carrier aviation into the 2050s and 60s.
 
Although IAF may have concepts in mind, I think they will keep changing their minds until new information is revealed to them. The industry will have to lead that, they can't do it on their own. They should have a general idea up to AMCA and its drones; Ghatak, FUFA, ISR drone, EW drone, tanker drone etc. Beyond that is anybody's guess.

Developing our own engine requires materials research for 30+ years before beginning a program. We have been doing that since the 80s, so we should have something to show for it today. F414 will eventually have Indian hot parts, so we could have something by next decade. So technologies developed in the last 15 years could end up on AHCA's engine. The Chinese materials developed in the 60s were used in the WS-10 in the 90s. And then getting that right, testing it and certifying it will take 20 years. The Russians took 22 years to develop and field Su-57's Type 30. AMCA's engine is simpler, it will use technologies that already exist in the West, to the point of being introduced by the end of the decade. For example, the F414's new CMC core or SCAF demonstrator's 11T M88 version.
American engines have lifespan of at least 4000 hours with MTBO 2000 hours. F-22's F119 is quoted to have 8650 hrs lifespan.
IDK the exact process of testing & certification.
- But If they are static tested for 1 hour every 2 hours then staff in shift duty can test it for 8 hours/day. It would take 500 days to complete 4000 hours testing. May be at least 2-3 pieces will be tested together. More models would be made with different # of LPC, HPC stages with different OPR, BPR & other design attributes.
- Then after finalizing 1 model best suited, they would take it on flight testbed, a small to medium cargo jet with 4 engines. Let's make it another 500 days.
- Then they may test it on a 2 engine fighter jet capable of landing on 1 engine. Let's count another 500 days.

A little over 4 years pass by. Beyond this IDK why would it take 20 yrs. I can understand 5-7 yrs. Critical core tech should be built with highet priorities.
Most of our politicians of every party are uneducated, improperly educated, acting like mafia or with mafia. And citizens also try to evade tax illegally. So obviously R&D funding suffers for decades.

GTRE & Safran need to work tightly now.
Till then if we can get either Al-51 w/o ToT or AL-41 from Russia, or F110 perhaps from USA, then we should proceed immediately for AHCA.

The replacement cycle is very long. MKI, MRFA, LCA Mk2 and AMCA are 50 years. LCA Mk1/A is at 30-40 years, the same as Mig-21. So LCA Mk1/A and MKI will need replacements from 2055. AMCA and MRFA will need replacements from 2085. Mig-29 and M2000 are also on a 50-year cycle, with replacements coming in from 2037 or so. So after AMCA, the way we develop fighters will change completely, similar to US and Russia.
The service life of each jet is so long hence we need to evolve them incrementally faster. Each century is so different from previous one. We had to start with LCA due engine problems.

As for 7th gen, with stratospheric capability, such aircraft are gonna come in soon. Russia's PAK DP and US' SR-72 will be among the first. China could follow them. ISRO's developing scram-jet based RLV with more advanced capability by 2030, which means DRDO/ADA should be able to replicate some of it by 2040 for military use. Once PAK DP comes in, the Americans and Chinese will follow-through with their own designs very quickly. We could actually end up 15 years behind them due to AHCA's 2055 deadline. Dassault has also suggested developing such technologies.
PAK-DP is quoted as high-supersonic,not Hypersonic.
1724137589854.png


And with SR-72 we need to understand how exactly a Mach-6-8 jet would attack. The shockwave sonic triangle is so high swept back & the friction would heat the airframe so much, how can a weapon be launched from IWB, nobody has shared any tech article on it.
Moreover its IRS will be huge visible to satellites. It will need big amout of fuel like SR-71, so it will be a big jet itself. I don't think SR-72 coming before NGAD.

Anyways, let's discuss hypersonic in its own thread

7gen tech will need its own thread too. Technology also has its time. If it arrives before time then also it fails.

The Su-57 uses a radar blocker, has an S-duct and can cover its blades with a variable inlet.

botzzon_orig.jpg


Probably lets it done when it's not supercruising at mach 2.

Yes, the LEVCONs are part of the wing, so the effective change in RCS is almost the same as the wing. It doesn't add to the RCS.

As we can see from real photos & CAD above, the duct is not curved enough like in F-22 for example. The fans/blocker should not be visible.
The variable inlet ramp is primarily for reducing supersonic air to subsonic air before entering engine. It can be painted with RAM & apparently is painted but RF radiation doesn't work exactly like light reflected by perfect mirror. So compared to ideal S-duct like in F-22, here relatively the RCS will be more. Also, the CAD above is shown slightly elevated, above the horizontal. After lowering the ramps also the blocker will be visible at horizontal & from lower 5-10 degree angle, something like below blueprint:
1724145815820.png


Till PAKFA was revealed properly, there were many speculations. 1 of those was following with S-duct:
1724146786771.jpeg
 
They developed 'Adrishya", "NiRaLa", etc also. But next step is should it be applied everywhere or selected areas. What would be cost & durability of it? Today stealth from every angle matters bcoz stealth fighters have pack-hunter type tactics & a fighter jet in general will obviously not fly in 1 orientation only.
The current RAP developed by Defence Lab, Jodhpur is superior to all earlier RAMs developed by us. In fact, its definition as RAP = Radar Absorbent Paint gives away its intended usage as it won't be specific area centric, rather would be applied over entire surface just like normal paint.

About durability, well since they have developed it as RAP, so I think it should be quite durable and maintenance friendly. Even our earlier RAM paints that you've quoted had 80%-95% EM waves absorbent properties and this latest RAP is supposed to be even superior than those.
Another aspect as we know is RAS/Geometry, that contributes most of the RCS reduction on outside as well as inside serpentine intake tunnel. So only applying RAM to 1st fan stage in a straight exposed tunnel would not suffice.
USA applied composites to 4th gen F-15,16,18, may be some RAM too & reduced their RCS say 10x less from 1 sqm to 0.1 sqm, sounds good but as radars & missile seekers have also improved so both side of Sword & Shield are balanced, net benefit may be ZERO. But F-22 has RCS 0.00015 sqm & F-35 has 0.0015 sqm. Now that's ahead of the enemy's Sword.
So my point is that when after MLUs also don't help beyond a limit bcoz of the airframe, a gen leap occurs with a new airframe. All global Su-3X airframes might have got or will be getting their last effective set of MLUs.
This is correct. Until we put engines like AL-51F1 which have front/rear radar blockers and develop "External weapons pod/bay", MKI's RCS won't challenge VLO jets. But, then IAF knows it all too well. The target is to bring MKI's RCS down to a level where it isn't detected from very far. With modern QWIP Dual-Band IRST that we're developing, MKI can maintain complete EMCON and detect even even stealth jets from 100kms+. The target is to bring its RCS down to that level. I think this new RAP shall allow MKI to do just that.
Here also they will have to look at cost of LO RF/IR nozzle panels + composite skin. But intake will remain exposed.
Except application of RAM/RAP on intakes and fan face, nothing can be done here.
They say that both of them are not stealthy enough like F-22 & F-35 which i think is true & b/w them J-20 could be slightly better. Honestly, i can't ignore China just bcoz we hate them, they are copy-cats, etc. Ultimately a country has to be defended & there is no morality in espionage. hey are ahead of us in everything. Russia has been struggling badly with Su-57 even after being a communist economy & a big energy supplier. By this time entire world expected 200+ Su-57 at least.

Anyways, the blocker is not a simple grill. It is like a special tranceiver antenna which absorbs certain wavelengths & may also actively cancel out some range.
I saw some diagrams but perhaps a combo of multiple things are required to handle different wavelengths -
- Intake shape & size
- Serpentine tunnel
- Internal RAM lining
- Blocker

View attachment 35603
View attachment 35608

F-22 & F-35 are also using the combo.
View attachment 35604
View attachment 35605
View attachment 35606
Su-57 has a different S-duct where rather than curving sideways, it goes up. Su-57M with AL-51F1 is as stealthy as any other VLO jet. With AL-41F1/117 it is not.
 
The current RAP developed by Defence Lab, Jodhpur is superior to all earlier RAMs developed by us. In fact, its definition as RAP = Radar Absorbent Paint gives away its intended usage as it won't be specific area centric, rather would be applied over entire surface just like normal paint.

About durability, well since they have developed it as RAP, so I think it should be quite durable and maintenance friendly. Even our earlier RAM paints that you've quoted had 80%-95% EM waves absorbent properties and this latest RAP is supposed to be even superior than those.

This is correct. Until we put engines like AL-51F1 which have front/rear radar blockers and develop "External weapons pod/bay", MKI's RCS won't challenge VLO jets. But, then IAF knows it all too well. The target is to bring MKI's RCS down to a level where it isn't detected from very far. With modern QWIP Dual-Band IRST that we're developing, MKI can maintain complete EMCON and detect even even stealth jets from 100kms+. The target is to bring its RCS down to that level. I think this new RAP shall allow MKI to do just that.

Except application of RAM/RAP on intakes and fan face, nothing can be done here.

Su-57 has a different S-duct where rather than curving sideways, it goes up. Su-57M with AL-51F1 is as stealthy as any other VLO jet. With AL-41F1/117 it is not.
It is good thing that our DoD units are coming up with such good stuff. But that alone would not give us edge or close the gap.
In stealth documentaries & articles it is said that -
- Geometric shaping alone reduces RCS considerably.
- Then RAS(Structure) like hexagonal honey-comb, triangular edge sections, composites, etc reduce it further.
- Then RAM reduces it further.
- And then active-cancellation/EW helps further.
So all these aspects are equally important. They have to work together.

On next gen IRST like QWIP, etc, if their detection range increases to say 100-150 Kms then the BVR-AAMs also need to increase their range to say 200-300 Kms. By the time IRST will detect opponent jet it will be too late.
The following is an old diagram from website ausairpower.net where advanced IRST detection range is more than AMRAAM range & by using longer range AAM the F-35 could be engaged.
1724173961082.jpeg

But they didn't show that F-35's DAS & EOTS has even longer range which will help the entire task force to position their jets in advance. Now they will have AIM-260 JATM & MAKO AAMs. This is a big upperhand.

1724174391475.jpeg


I'm aware of DRDO's IRST R&D

1724174834090.png


AMCA's DAS sensor R&D also seems to have just begun

1724174686810.png


RF or IR stealth, all the 4.5gen jets around world are trying to economise by replacing metal parts with composites, applying limited RAM, adding more EW, adding better IRST, MAWS/DAS, LWR, etc. But there is a limit to it bcoz like i said their permanent airframe structure cannot be changed, hence a gen leap occurs. So 4.5gen are living their last few decades. They won't be frontline jets anymore if a country already has 5gen jets who would lead, otherwise there would be identical mutual losses on both sides.

So the fact is that Su-57 RCS is not even near F-35, leave F-22, it shows that Russians have overconfidently ignored certain aspects, like betting on their intake ramp & blocker. The S-duct has to curve both up & inwards due to surrounding equipments, IWB. The Su-57 S-duct also does curve both inwards & upwards but very little. Its tandem IWB prevents the S-duct to curve further otherwise the blocker could have been completely hidden like in F-22. The Su-57 appears like a flattened & chiselled Su-3X. Also, its IRST has spherical cover rather than faceted.

Anyways, when talking about a future jet, the idea is to learn from all the jets so far. Even F-22 has some limitations & getting 11 Bn$ MLU but still NGAD R&D is in full swing.
To discuss a possible AHCA design we have to highlight limitations of every jet so far & see if those can be avoided.
 
American engines have lifespan of at least 4000 hours with MTBO 2000 hours. F-22's F119 is quoted to have 8650 hrs lifespan.
IDK the exact process of testing & certification.
- But If they are static tested for 1 hour every 2 hours then staff in shift duty can test it for 8 hours/day. It would take 500 days to complete 4000 hours testing. May be at least 2-3 pieces will be tested together. More models would be made with different # of LPC, HPC stages with different OPR, BPR & other design attributes.
- Then after finalizing 1 model best suited, they would take it on flight testbed, a small to medium cargo jet with 4 engines. Let's make it another 500 days.
- Then they may test it on a 2 engine fighter jet capable of landing on 1 engine. Let's count another 500 days.

A little over 4 years pass by. Beyond this IDK why would it take 20 yrs. I can understand 5-7 yrs. Critical core tech should be built with highet priorities.
Most of our politicians of every party are uneducated, improperly educated, acting like mafia or with mafia. And citizens also try to evade tax illegally. So obviously R&D funding suffers for decades.

Your schedule doesn't take into account the time lost fixing problems that show up.

Take NGAD's engines. Development for both started in the 90s and they are yet to pick a winner. And the F-35's engine still has problems that can only be fixed sometime after 2030.

GTRE & Safran need to work tightly now.
Till then if we can get either Al-51 w/o ToT or AL-41 from Russia, or F110 perhaps from USA, then we should proceed immediately for AHCA.

If we go by my timeframe, AHCA won't be taken up until AMCA's crossed the LSP stage and achieves IOC. Tey will make a paper design then. Post that, engineering phase will happen only after FOC. The reason being if govt clears AHCA earlier than that, then all the main scientists will bully their way into AHCA while ignoring AMCA. That's why AMCA was cleared only after LCA Mk1/A finished development. During that time they designed Ghatak.

The service life of each jet is so long hence we need to evolve them incrementally faster. Each century is so different from previous one. We had to start with LCA due engine problems.

I think we are going to follow a batch-wise induction of new tech. For example, MKI MLU will see the first 84 up to a certain standard, then the next batch will have a slightly higher standard and so on. There are rumors saying the next batch of LCA Mk1A will have slightly more advanced avionics.

PAK-DP is quoted as high-supersonic,not Hypersonic.
View attachment 35612

And with SR-72 we need to understand how exactly a Mach-6-8 jet would attack. The shockwave sonic triangle is so high swept back & the friction would heat the airframe so much, how can a weapon be launched from IWB, nobody has shared any tech article on it.
Moreover its IRS will be huge visible to satellites. It will need big amout of fuel like SR-71, so it will be a big jet itself. I don't think SR-72 coming before NGAD.

Anyways, let's discuss hypersonic in its own thread

Yes. I never said PAK DP is hypersonic. It's mach 4-4.5, so ramjet based. SR-72 is an ISR aircraft, scramjet based. My point was if the US and Russia are introducing such tech in just a few more years, then AHCA will be at equivalent category or higher. And because of RLV, we will also have such tech by 2030, just not militarized. So, if it's, militarized, then it can end up as part of AHCA.

And it's because of this development that I put the IN's next fighter as a technology bridge between AMCA and AHCA. It's because I don't think the IAF will be interested in an AMCA++ that's slightly bigger and heavier with a bit more stealth merely 10 years after AMCA is inducted.

7gen tech will need its own thread too. Technology also has its time. If it arrives before time then also it fails.


As we can see from real photos & CAD above, the duct is not curved enough like in F-22 for example. The fans/blocker should not be visible.
The variable inlet ramp is primarily for reducing supersonic air to subsonic air before entering engine. It can be painted with RAM & apparently is painted but RF radiation doesn't work exactly like light reflected by perfect mirror. So compared to ideal S-duct like in F-22, here relatively the RCS will be more. Also, the CAD above is shown slightly elevated, above the horizontal. After lowering the ramps also the blocker will be visible at horizontal & from lower 5-10 degree angle, something like below blueprint:
View attachment 35613

Till PAKFA was revealed properly, there were many speculations. 1 of those was following with S-duct:
View attachment 35614

That's fine. The X-32 and X-35 were designed to be more stealthy than the F-22, and one look at the X-32 will tell you it's okay.

1.jpg


The Su-47 also has S-duct with hidden blades, but decided to give up on it on Su-57, so the Russians know what they are doing.

This is what the F-32 could have been.
 
Someone's put a lot of effort into the RCS modeling of the Su-57.

In any case, the Su-57 is VLO from the front. They wouldn't have put so much effort into the airframe and intake designs, like blocker and planar wings just to get Su-47 class stealth. And if the front is VLO, the side and rear aspects will also have been designed to be similar. At least we know the engine has been designed for stealth.
 
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Wrong thread, I know. But since we are on the subject of new-gen IRST, is the Su-30MKIs new dual band system being developed by BEL with a foriegn partner or is it in-house DARE/IRDE? TIA.
 
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China definitely would be USAF's biggest challenge.

LEVCONS are so much better than Canards in-terms of both low-RCS and drag penalty. As per some Russian rumours, Sukhoi are looking for navalized Su-57Ms. Thanks to LEVCONS it's carrier ready in terms of aerodynamics, just need to get its frame and undercarriage strengthened.

Now a days, software are available which keeps Canards on such an angle that it positions itself in such a way to ensure that RCS does not increases much and yet do not affect flight performance of aircraft. MWF is equipped with such software.
 
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It is good thing that our DoD units are coming up with such good stuff. But that alone would not give us edge or close the gap.
In stealth documentaries & articles it is said that -
- Geometric shaping alone reduces RCS considerably.
- Then RAS(Structure) like hexagonal honey-comb, triangular edge sections, composites, etc reduce it further.
- Then RAM reduces it further.
- And then active-cancellation/EW helps further.
So all these aspects are equally important. They have to work together.
Of course, you can't make a jet stealth by just painting it with RAM. Any jet that carries its weapons outside won't be stealth in the truest sense. But then technology has advanced so much that modern RAPs(radar absorbent paint) has the ability to drastically reduce a legacy jets's RCS to give it RO(Reduced Observable) or LO(Low Observable) properties. That's how far they would go.

If you want more then just have full-on VLO jets with IWB.
On next gen IRST like QWIP, etc, if their detection range increases to say 100-150 Kms then the BVR-AAMs also need to increase their range to say 200-300 Kms. By the time IRST will detect opponent jet it will be too late.
Modern QWIP IRST has the ability to detect stealth planes from over 150kms. Couple that with missiles like Astra 2/3 and MKI would surprise these VLO jets with 100% passive shot.
The following is an old diagram from website ausairpower.net where advanced IRST detection range is more than AMRAAM range & by using longer range AAM the F-35 could be engaged.
View attachment 35622
But they didn't show that F-35's DAS & EOTS has even longer range which will help the entire task force to position their jets in advance. Now they will have AIM-260 JATM & MAKO AAMs. This is a big upperhand.
MAKO isn't an AAM. Just a hypersonic air-to-surface missile. Current EOTS isn't that capable however they're looking to improve its range/resolution in the Block 4 version.
View attachment 35624


I'm aware of DRDO's IRST R&D

View attachment 35630

AMCA's DAS sensor R&D also seems to have just begun

View attachment 35629

RF or IR stealth, all the 4.5gen jets around world are trying to economise by replacing metal parts with composites, applying limited RAM, adding more EW, adding better IRST, MAWS/DAS, LWR, etc. But there is a limit to it bcoz like i said their permanent airframe structure cannot be changed, hence a gen leap occurs. So 4.5gen are living their last few decades. They won't be frontline jets anymore if a country already has 5gen jets who would lead, otherwise there would be identical mutual losses on both sides.
Modern QWIP IRST especially LWIR based like IRST-21 or dual-band based like PIRATE or Skyward-G pay special care to catch skin friction which can't be avoided when travelling at 900kmph+ at over 10k feet. Atmosphere is extremely cool as you go high. No amount of changing metallic skin will help there.

F-35 employs a top coat over its paint just to reduce its friction/Infra-Red signature but modern QWIP sensors have become too good.

Americans for years mocked IRST systems are now themselves looking to put pod based IRST systems in all their jets. That's a testimony of how far IRST systems have evolved.
So the fact is that Su-57 RCS is not even near F-35, leave F-22, it shows that Russians have overconfidently ignored certain aspects, like betting on their intake ramp & blocker. The S-duct has to curve both up & inwards due to surrounding equipments, IWB. The Su-57 S-duct also does curve both inwards & upwards but very little. Its tandem IWB prevents the S-duct to curve further otherwise the blocker could have been completely hidden like in F-22. The Su-57 appears like a flattened & chiselled Su-3X. Also, its IRST has spherical cover rather than faceted.

Anyways, when talking about a future jet, the idea is to learn from all the jets so far. Even F-22 has some limitations & getting 11 Bn$ MLU but still NGAD R&D is in full swing.
To discuss a possible AHCA design we have to highlight limitations of every jet so far & see if those can be avoided.
Stealth can't be eyeballed. Su-57M employs a different philosophy. Su-30MKI is better than all US teen fighters. There is no reason why Su-57 won't be better than F-22/F-35.
 
Wrong thread, I know. But since we are on the subject of new-gen IRST, is the Su-30MKIs new dual band system being developed by BEL with a foriegn partner or is it in-house DARE/IRDE? TIA.
Fully in-house. However it draws its inspiration from PIRATE and Selex SkyWard-G Dual-Band IRST. These IRST work in 3-5microns and 8-12 microns simultaneously, i.e., both in MWIR and LWIR.

MWIR helps in foggy/cloudy/low visibility/rainy conditions and detection at lower altitudes.

LWIR helps in catching skin-friction at high-altitudes where temperature is very cool.

Combining both provides best of both world/tech and provides us with a proper VLO buster totally developed in-house.

Read my analysis here about our IRST: Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

Now a days, software are available which keeps Canards on such an angle that it positions itself in such a way to ensure that RCS does not increases much and yet do not affect flight performance of aircraft. MWF is equipped with such software.
All that goes for a toss when canards start to move. This is why most stealthy designs omit them. MK2 isn't a stealth plane. Our stealth plane is AMCA and it doesn't have them for very very low radar cross section.
 
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The Russians are world leaders when it comes to materials tech. I have no doubt that can build a VLO airframe, competitive with Western designs, given time.

They lag behind in system integration, avionics and MMI though, which is probably why the IAF walked out of the FGFA program.

India could develop its own avionics and MMI for a notional Su-57MKI but the Russians will restrict access to the source code required for deep customization imo.
 
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The Russians are world leaders when it comes to materials tech. I have no doubt that can build a VLO airframe, competitive with Western designs, given time.

They lag behind in system integration, avionics and MMI though, which is probably why the IAF walked out of the FGFA program.

India could develop its own avionics and MMI for a notional Su-57MKI but the Russians will restrict access to the source code required for deep customization imo.

The Indian version would have used some Russian avionics hardware, like radar, but the entire platform would have been Indianized with Indo-Israeli/European capabilities. With the exception of FBW and engine, FGFA would have had Indian software, including the radar.

So it was never a problem about technology, the end product received IAF clearance, and was later cleared by the Varthaman Committee as well. The main issues were maturity, inability to meet our timeframe and refusal to hand over documentation 'cause the T-50 back then was for Russia. When we asked for more details, they said we have to wait, so we are waiting.

In the meantime, the Indian industry has caught up and the US is applying pressure and are giving us tech to fill holes in our capabilities, like AMCA's engine. So FGFA numbers have fallen from 250+ to 216 to 154 to 127 to as low as 63. And this window is closing.