AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?

[HariPrasad]

> From global tech evolution PoV, we are seeing dawn of era of 6gen & dusk of era of 5gen. The leader nation(s) won't wait for lagging nations to catch up bcoz it is domination + business.
> You should understand a simple thing that Americans, Europeans, Russians, Chinese are just pushing 4.5gen to rest of world so that they can fund their R&D of future tech & we have been falling in that quicksand.

- The MLUed 4gen are just gap fillers now, even the future Rafale F5/F6 & EF-2000 Tranche-5/6. Don't forget GCAP & FCAS.​

- If any nation has or will have 5/6gen jet then it will always use them to spearhead a battle followed behind by 4.5gen. FCAS will lead, Rafale will follow; GCAP will lead, EF-2000 will follow; F-22+F-35 will lead, F-15/16/18 will follow; J-20+J-35 will lead, J-10/11/15/16 will follow.​

> So if you or anybody wanna talk about medium jet then talk about a stealthy one.

- F-35 is the only active service stealth medium jet. J-35 is being revealed at Zhuai airshow. Kaan is intermediate b/w medium & heavy.​

- So you should compare with these jets. Compare F-22 Vs F-35, Su-57 Vs Su-75, J-20 Vs J-35. AFAIK, even the NGAD will have 1 medium & 1 heavy jet. Why comparing 4gen jets design?​

> So now among any class of stealth jet, it is simple maths to maintain TWR, as the internal load or STOW (Stealth Take Off Weight) increase, so does the engine thrust & both parameters increase total STOW.
> But you & some other members are ignoring either the generation or firepower or both of a fighter.


> BY THAT LOGIC ANY LFA CAN ECONOMICALLY BEAT ANY MFA, THEN WHAT IS THE POINT IN BUILDING MEDIUM JET?
> I already gave you answer - payload delivered by an airframe per sortie & fuel used. It is Military Economics.
View attachment 37921
> You are not realizing that your point is calling Americans & Russians as foolish to have made F-15 & Su-3X in 4gen, then F-22 & Su-57 in 5gen & now again in 6gen.
> Although due to limited time i've stopped talking about 4gen everywhere, but from design PoV it is interesting to see that Rafale payload is 9.5T, F-18E has 8T, while the Sukhois can carry upto 8T only. Although F-15E can carry 10.4T.

- May be delta-canard gives more payload MTOW than tandem biplane.​

- But it is also said that canard design is less stealthier than tandem biplane.​

- Sukhois have clipped delta wing which prioritizes to reduce drag & its outcome could be lesser wing load, IDK for sure.​

- It also depends on skeleton structure designed by mechanical engineers. If we tell 10 teams to use CAD & design exact same structure then also there will be noticeable differences.​

- Most advanced Flanker is Su-35-S, certainly not current MKI. I wonder what Russians have to say about Su-35 Vs Rafale/EF-2000.​

> The latest thing to note is that Europeans earlier opted for medium jets Rafale & EF-2000 but now the GCAP & FCAS are going to be heavy class jets bcoz of simple fact that 6gen characteristics of internal components increase so does engine with higher thrust & both increase weight.



> That's exactly the desease in our system since 1947 - pesimism, procrastination, delays, scams, lack of funds & R&D, excuses, blame game, import culture, underconfidence to make future oriented thing in time but overconfidence to win future war, ignorane & arrogance. And after celebratng 75 years also we are not lerning to move forward on time.
> I'm not taking about 5gen but whatever best we can do. We have developed RAM, we can design RAS geometry, all we need is a proper engine by self/JV/import.
> We are not just in era of advanced S/w, design tools but also AI, machine learning, advanced robotics, etc.
We have IT industry since 3.5 decades.
We have Super Computers. Lots of CFD sims & other tests can be done quickly.
Today it doesn't take so long to research & design something, be it an automobile or aircraft. The prototype flight tests can take time.
But still if we just boast about our global CEOs but not develop & use our own S/w tech for R&D on time then it is our fault.


That's what i said.



> After such easy, short, point-wise explanation also you wanna go reverse gear & want obsolete design to be RE-CREATED for next 50-60 years.
> It is not just about TWR but also stealth & firepower. There is no global standard or agreement on ideal dry/wet TWR but very high TWR means under-utilized payload capacity.
> What does ORCA mean - Omni Role Combat Aircraft, same as MRCA/MRFA (Multi Role Combat/Fighter Aircraft).
Conceptually, it looks like Mirage-2000+Rafale with no geometric treatment :
View attachment 37785
> Apart from composites & EW, neither ORCA, TEDBF, MWF have any geometric stealth nor Rafale, EF-2000, etc.
> The jet makers, USA, Russia, EU, China, all will stretch their 4gen for few more decades but none are stopping their R&D for future, but people like you want India to stop/stall is R&D, WHY?
> I explained many times that a gen leap occurs when the airframe design is obsolete & upgrading it further is not efficient.
> I also mentioned many times that from 1st gen to present & till eternty, a newer gen jet is supposed to defeat older gen jet most of the times.
> Every future jet needs to have a stealthy geometry, RAM, comprehensive EW.


> Why only frontal stealth? Is the enemy oblidged to attack only from front straight? A jet has to maneuver a lot due to navigation, terrain, SAMs & other threats from ground & air, so from other angles also geometric stealth cannot be compromised.
> EW is complex cat & mouse game. You think only Rafale has the best EW package? Every maker pitches their product to be best. And although there will be Rafale F5, F6 but France also developing FCAS, so why you're ignoring the advancements????
> Progressing & advacement requires to comapre with better things. If you will compare with existing jets of 4gen then it is stagnating, not progressing.


> We should never underestimate adversaries. China makes crap for the world with cheap labor & raw materials, but not for self.
> My vision of AHCA is 5.5gen to start with then modularly upgraded to 6gen.


> Don't worry. Everybody doesn't have same comprehension, creativity, intelligence, will power, persistence, consistency, etc.

> Although on a casual chat forum, different members have different qualification, experience, comprehension, perception, but we all are trying to mentally conceive something in different ways.
> We are already living an alternate surreal life since 1947, & even before it since 1,000 years of slavery.
> No need to compare with others. If we don't do R&D then our education system is getting wasted & will lead to brain-drain, massive unemployment, perhaps civil war.

> But we all are doing time pass chit chat here, isn't it? DoD not monitorng & looking for input from us. So either ways, don't discourage others if you don't wanna think.


Since 1947 we have seen all the practical approaches leading to imported replenishments.



> Didn't i say that if things went well with PAKFA then Su-57 would have been our AHCA.
> I also showed an edited diagram of Su-57 to notionally depict AHCA.
> But we had to exit PAKFA bcoz Russia took lot of money, didn't agree with our design suggestions & also not on ToT.

In very few occasions of my long history of discusser of Military affairs, my post has so explicitly been answered. Thank you very much for that. Since you have taken a long pain to answer my posts, let me read it again and again to understand it before I post reply. Thanks again for your elaborate answer bro. Cheers.

 

[HariPrasad]

> From global tech evolution PoV, we are seeing dawn of era of 6gen & dusk of era of 5gen. The leader nation(s) won't wait for lagging nations to catch up bcoz it is domination + business.

What you say is very true but what is on the ground. I remember a statement of A K Antony when he was Defense minister. He told that navy to finalize the specification of AC. After 12 years, it is not finalized yet. I heard about 12 to 13 years ago that JV for aero engine will be formed shortly. I hear same thing even today. I learned about hypersonic Brahmos becoming reality withing next 4 to 5 years. I hear same even today. Same is the case of ALH, Akash NG and almost all the systems. You need to be very proactive in nature and there should be no constrains of Fund. To need to achieve what you say, there are many factors which should be in place. In reality, we plan ambitious things and when it does not come in time as planned, we go out and purchase stuff from abroad which even we could have made ourselves. There are many such examples. MWF is a classical example. Had we been receiving them today couple of squadrons today or even half of that we would not be ruining for MMRCA today. So let us except reality and work accordingly. Our military and military R & D budget need to be at least double and with lots of autonomy to such institutions to come out with fast result. If these factors are not addressed, batter we should adopt a practical approach which works. Privatization has worked really well. Example is Joravar tank and K9 Vajra, some defense stuff made by Adani consortium etc. who has made the some really good stuff in very short time.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

In very few occasions of my long history of discusser of Military affairs, my post has so explicitly been answered. Thank you very much for that. Since you have taken a long pain to answer my posts, let me read it again and again to understand it before I post reply. Thanks again for your elaborate answer bro. Cheers.

You are most welcome, any time. This is just the beginning to explore this concept & pass time.
> When i have opened a thread on a new idea, it means -

- i've been observing & cooking it since years​

- it becomes my DUTY to clarify & try my best to make people understand it with best data - pictures, diagram, calculations, etc. I'm a low IQ techie so i'm just doing my part my way.​

> Anybody can give multiple text response from cellphone from anywhere, but that's not my way of discussing. I take my time & give collective reply point-wise.

What you say is very true but what is on the ground. I remember a statement of A K Antony when he was Defense minister. He told that navy to finalize the specification of AC. After 12 years, it is not finalized yet. I heard about 12 to 13 years ago that JV for aero engine will be formed shortly. I hear same thing even today. I learned about hypersonic Brahmos becoming reality withing next 4 to 5 years. I hear same even today. Same is the case of ALH, Akash NG and almost all the systems. You need to be very proactive in nature and there should be no constrains of Fund. To need to achieve what you say, there are many factors which should be in place. In reality, we plan ambitious things and when it does not come in time as planned, we go out and purchase stuff from abroad which even we could have made ourselves. There are many such examples. MWF is a classical example. Had we been receiving them today couple of squadrons today or even half of that we would not be ruining for MMRCA today. So let us except reality and work accordingly. Our military and military R & D budget need to be at least double and with lots of autonomy to such institutions to come out with fast result. If these factors are not addressed, batter we should adopt a practical approach which works. Privatization has worked really well. Example is Joravar tank and K9 Vajra, some defense stuff made by Adani consortium etc. who has made the some really good stuff in very short time.

> Everything has a START sometime, somewhere, somehow, BUT our START is not happening anywhere since decades anywhow bcoz people are not even willing to talk about it constructively, leave constructing the project.
> We all are frustrated with reality but what new are we bringing to a forum to discuss???????

- so we can speak of what should have been done​

- and what can be done starting today.​

NOTE - PRACTICAL means different for everyone.
> I learned in office that while complaining we should suggest solution or a work-around. That is 1 of the things which makes a person stand out in a crowd.

- So solution is proper 6gen jet, but it cannot be made by 2040. I think our 6gen prototype will come when USA will be retiring them.​

- Then work-around is to contiue AMCA & also use it as stepping stone. Just inflate it & put a higher thrust engine like AL-31/41, F-100 if USA agrees. That's your AHCA MK1. Now tell me what's so problematic about it when ISRO is making success??? And AI+ML+CAD=Fast design. The only hurdle is funding.​

> I'm not against privatization but Tata, Ambani, Adani, etc are not willing to invest money into R&D of engine & airframe.
> We need qualified politicians also in all parties at every level - MLA, MP, CM, PM, etc. But i think in this century at least we have tolerate unqualified, inappropriate people pulling the strings.