AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?

[randomradio]

In the recent slides presented by GTRE, they have shown plans for a future engine with 125-145KN power for a heavy-weight jet. So maybe, we do have plans to make our future AHCA post AMCA. Fingers crossed.

A heavy jet in this day and age requires 170-250 kN.

GTRE's new test bench in Rajankunte covers engines up to 130 kN. So my guess is they are gonna stick to developing the AMCA's engine to its max potential first. 110 kN initial, then two growth options for 120 kN and 130 kN as AMCA and TEDBF get heavier, and related drones for both. The same engine could eventually climb up to 145 kN, so this could be what they are referring to.

DRDO made a rule about a decade ago, they said they won't announce major new projects publicly until the tech has achieved a certain level of maturity. So 2025 is still too early for any new successor engine. Plus the govt wants to take a step-by-step approach to R&D, meaning DRDO need to achieve certain milestones in one project before starting another. So here we have Dry Kaveri clearing ground tests and pretty soon flight tests in Russia before AMCA's engine is approved. So AMCA's engine will have to achieve similar milestones before the next project is taken up.

 

[HariPrasad]

What you say is very true but what is on the ground. I remember a statement of A K Antony when he was Defense minister. He told that navy to finalize the specification of AC. After 12 years, it is not finalized yet. I heard about 12 to 13 years ago that JV for aero engine will be formed shortly. I hear same thing even today. I learned about hypersonic Brahmos becoming reality withing next 4 to 5 years. I hear same even today. Same is the case of ALH, Akash NG and almost all the systems. You need to be very proactive in nature and there should be no constrains of Fund. To need to achieve what you say, there are many factors which should be in place. In reality, we plan ambitious things and when it does not come in time as planned, we go out and purchase stuff from abroad which even we could have made ourselves. There are many such examples. MWF is a classical example. Had we been receiving them today couple of squadrons today or even half of that we would not be ruining for MMRCA today. So let us except reality and work accordingly. Our military and military R & D budget need to be at least double and with lots of autonomy to such institutions to come out with fast result. If these factors are not addressed, batter we should adopt a practical approach which works. Privatization has worked really well. Example is Joravar tank and K9 Vajra, some defense stuff made by Adani consortium etc. who has made the some really good stuff in very short time.

Pardon the grammatical errors.

 

[Rajput Lion]

@Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik

It's on

 

[Zarion]

@Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik

It's on

What happened?

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

@Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik

It's on

 

[South block]

@Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik

It's on

Tap ?

 

[randomradio]

@Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik

It's on

Yeah, but the IAF is following my timeline and capability model.

The IAF hopes to create requirements by early 2030s, so we can expect first flight only in the 2040s. It's for induction by the mid-2050s.

And it will be hypersonic.

 

[YoungWolf]

@Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik

It's on

Apologies, but care to clue in the clueless please?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Apologies, but care to clue in the clueless please?

AHCA, offcial now

 

[YoungWolf]

AHCA, offcial now

Yeah I read a statement regarding some top DRDO/ADA official saying a 6th gen prototype will be out by 2040. Honestly, I'd take it with the entire pack of salt I've in my kitchen. They need to improve their track record by swiftly executing Tejas Mk2 and AMCA before they give any statements on projects further away in future. You know what they say, the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

 

[randomradio]

Yeah I read a statement regarding some top DRDO/ADA official saying a 6th gen prototype will be out by 2040. Honestly, I'd take it with the entire pack of salt I've in my kitchen. They need to improve their track record by swiftly executing Tejas Mk2 and AMCA before they give any statements on projects further away in future. You know what they say, the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

Yeah. The timeline is still not realistic. It will take until 2040 just to finish CDR.

A 2045 first flight with an imported engine or a 1:3 scale demonstrator with AMCA's engine are more feasible before the engine is switched with a combined cycle version by 2050. So we will have about 20 years to develop the engine from 2030 onwards.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

AHCA, offcial now

Our Kumbhakarans got tickeld & have woken up. May be they noticed my AHCA threads everywhere

Why didn't you share the official post?

When i googled, i found few following articles:
I.D.R.W. links:

https://****/6th-generation-fighter-plans-to-follow-while-amca-enters-trial-phase-iaf-official/

https://****/2040-india-eyes-2040-for-6th-gen-fighter-concept-with-double-amca-range-payload/

I.D.R.W. seems to be BANNED term here???? It copies USAF artistic image but doesn't allow to right-click or take print-screen

From IADN on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=548730077674720

Now on various social media sites, many influencers, discouragers, misleaders, piggybackers, saboteurs will shift goal posts.

Engine being the heart of jet still remains the core focus.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Yeah I read a statement regarding some top DRDO/ADA official saying a 6th gen prototype will be out by 2040. Honestly, I'd take it with the entire pack of salt I've in my kitchen. They need to improve their track record by swiftly executing Tejas Mk2 and AMCA before they give any statements on projects further away in future. You know what they say, the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

It has to be collective cooperation in GoI/MoD & DoD units for funding, facilities, people, etc. If they follow the same old BABU system then god help us.
5/10/15/20 years can be big time for sincere people & it flies for lazy people.
The Linear system has to be discarded & parallel, independent project managent is needed.

In 2025 we're in era of affordable Supercomputing, AI/ML, robotics, automations. If we use all these properly then all processes can be shortened.

Multiple prototype airframes are made to test different features - engines, avionics, weapons, agility, auxilliary components, etc, perhaps even different wing designs. Hence till the engine is decided & available, some prototypes can be rolled out b/w 2035-40 to test other aspects.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

For AHCA to be naval stealth jet, we should have some size reference.
On AMCA thread i showed comparison of AMCA & F-18 SH naval jet in medium class.
A naval jet & a heavy class means Su-33 as best current example.
A stealth jet & heavy class means F-22 as best current example.
Let's compare both towards conceptualizing a stealth, naval, heavy class jet.

Su-33
length 21.19m
width 14.7m
height 5.93m

F-22
length 18.92m
width 13.56m
height 5.08m






Observations:
> Naval Flanker is taller due to bigger landing gear, humpy bumpy airframe. While F-22 is continious block airframe like a flying brick.
> Due to humping, Su-3X front LG is also huge compared to F-22's.
> The rear landing gear of F-22 retracts laterally, while of Su-33 retracts forward that too w/o folding.
> Both their empty weight, Std./Stealth-TOW are almost same. Yet Su-3X family is huge size bcoz the airframe is stretched & humped resulting in hanging intakes.
> Wing loading is almost same. This is intresting.
> Su-33's external load with full & lower fuel is lower than F-22's, may be due to lower wing area.
> ATWRs (Aircraft Thrust to Weight Ratios) of F-22 much better than Su-33.
> F119 engine is 2.27 tons Vs 1.5 tons AL-31F3. Both are around 195" long. F119 inlet dia. is 40", AL-31 inlet dia. is 35.6". So F119 has higher volume & more weight due to TVC nozzle, ceramic RF blocker, etc.
> So the intake area is also more as seen in front view.
> The centerline area in Su-3X have 2 weapon stations. This space is aerodynamically enclosed in F-22 right from nose to form center part of IWB space. Remaining space comes from humping the intake ducts. The center space in AHCA can potentially house Brahmos NG sized AGMs & VLR-AAMs.

There can be many more things to observe.

 

[Agni 1P]

This can be a good for AHCA


Found this concept in Twitter

2 x Brahmos-NG
4 X Sea breaker Antiship cruise missile

6 x Anti ship missiles In a single sortie



2 x Brahmos Ng => 2.6 Tons
4 x Sea breaker => 1.6 Tons

4.2 Tons Payload is achievable



BDL signed MOU with rafael for Sea breaker in AEROINDIA 2025


---------------------------

For Air to Air role

4 x Astra Mk-3 & 8 x CUDA kind Missile

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

This can be a good for AHCA

View attachment 43967
Found this concept in Twitter

2 x Brahmos-NG
4 X Sea breaker Antiship cruise missile

6 x Anti ship missiles In a single sortie



2 x Brahmos Ng => 2.6 Tons
4 x Sea breaker => 1.6 Tons

4.2 Tons Payload is achievable



BDL signed MOU with rafael for Sea breaker in AEROINDIA 2025
View attachment 43968

---------------------------

For Air to Air role

4 x Astra Mk-3 & 8 x CUDA kind Missile
View attachment 43969

This concept looks at least 22m long, equal to Su-3X, identical to J-36.
It is easy to imagine just 1 view, but difficult to co-relate all views together.
The center IWB is too much aft.
Bcoz the engine exhausts are close spaced, so the IWB has to hang down more than a fighter's IWB, not very aerodynamic.
4.2 tons IWB capacity is huge for a 6gen fighter.
If it is a fighter-bomber or strike jet only for AF then something like J-36 might be possible. But 2 engines means very powerful ones.
Bcoz Brahmos-NG is 6m long, so for a fighter, i can imagine 1x Brahmos-NG on centerline similar to Su-30MKI carries the biggger one.

 

[Agni 1P]

This concept looks at least 22m long, equal to Su-3X, identical to J-36.
It is easy to imagine just 1 view, but difficult to co-relate all views together.
The center IWB is too much aft.
Bcoz the engine exhausts are close spaced, so the IWB has to hang down more than a fighter's IWB, not very aerodynamic.
4.2 tons IWB capacity is huge for a 6gen fighter.
If it is a fighter-bomber or strike jet only for AF then something like J-36 might be possible. But 2 engines means very powerful ones.
Bcoz Brahmos-NG is 6m long, so for a fighter, i can imagine 1x Brahmos-NG on centerline similar to Su-30MKI carries the biggger one.

Artistic render of so called fb22



It has 4 x SD Bombs each of 1.8 Meters length....So length of central IWB of it would be > 7.5 Meters....did the IWB hang more than typical fighter's IWB placement ?

I dont want to see su 3X Reference for 6 th gen....I hope you are aware of inferior soviet engineering....soviets & ruskies increased volume of their fighter jet bcoz their jet engine tech is far behind west & consumes a lot of fuel to match endurance of western jets....

Who knows....advancement in engine tech could make jet engines which can produce thrust similar to f135 in dimensions similar to f119

Drdo MCA drawing too has curved underbelly



------------------------



This 6 th gen concept might have max speed ~Mach 1 but it's endurance would be more than AMCA

This FB-AHCA

Fighter Bomber AHCA

Single jet playing role of fighter jet & bomber....It needes CCA with CCM's for pure Air to Air roles bcoz it's less maneuverable

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Artistic render of so called fb22

View attachment 44075

It has 4 x SD Bombs each of 1.8 Meters length....So length of central IWB of it would be > 7.5 Meters....did the IWB hang more than typical fighter's IWB placement ?

But FB-22 got cancelled & closest thing is J-36 whose fuselgae height is more than J-20, F-22.
SDB has diameter like an AAM & they are placed laterally flat. So the IWB won't extend down more.
But Brahmos kind of big weapons have bigger diameter. The IWB start below the intake ducts, which will result in lowering of IWB.
Otherwise you'll have to separate engines with centerline tandem IWB.

Bcoz this idea is yours so you should produce the side view, front view also & corelate them.

I dont want to see su 3X Reference for 6 th gen....I hope you are aware of inferior soviet engineering....soviets & ruskies increased volume of their fighter jet bcoz their jet engine tech is far behind west & consumes a lot of fuel to match endurance of western jets....

Su-3X reference is only for size bcoz very few fighters are that big & your design looks that big. Otherwise it can be compared to size of F-111.

Who knows....advancement in engine tech could make jet engines which can produce thrust similar to f135 in dimensions similar to f119

A lot of things are possible by different combo of engine parameters - OPR, BPR, TET, fuel type, fuel-air mix ratio, combustor design, turbine blade & vanes design, exhaust design, etc bcoz gas molecules loose KE upon friction.
But the natural physics, chemistry, maths has its limits, so technical estimations are required.
The air entering engine inlet has to be subsonic, say Mach 0.8, so we have an upper limit on air mass flow per second & max thrust for a given diameter.

The AETP was F-135 sized, proposed to replace it but only ECU is being done.
The F119 engine has 40"/100cm inlet dia.
The 6gen XA series engines are reported to be 46"/115cm inlet dia.

Drdo MCA drawing too has curved underbelly

View attachment 44076

But does AMCA or any stealth jet have curved belly?

------------------------

View attachment 44077

This 6 th gen concept might have max speed ~Mach 1 but it's endurance would be more than AMCA

This FB-AHCA

Fighter Bomber AHCA

Single jet playing role of fighter jet & bomber....It needes CCA with CCM's for pure Air to Air roles bcoz it's less maneuverable

Its speed would depend on engine quoted.
Its endurance (flight time) would depend on internal fuel quantity & SFC (Specific Fuel Consumption) which in turn depends on fuel type or its calorific value, fuel air mix ratio, combustor design.
AFAIK, the F119 has lowest dry SFC of 17.3 gm/KN/s.

6gen is quoted to have DEW-CIWS & CCAs both.

 

[randomradio]

I asked do we have a pic, video, diagram of morphing wing you said being tested in the air?
bcoz the Aeronautical Test Range NE of Chitradurga (14°23'12.7"N 76°34'38.4"E), (9HPC+QR8, Varavoo Kaval, Karnataka 577536) has runway surrounded by close, short hills beyond which there're fields, villages, highways. There'no comparison with Area-51.
The Sulur airbase has far worse expose to public.

if a morphing wing experimental platform is being tested on manned A/c or UAV from these locations, cannot escape public eyes.


Obviously who else will be source? But the articles are portraying unbelievable AI made pics rather than some slide or diagram from CSIR-NAL, DRDO, ADA.

Yeesh, can't take you seriously when you need full-on debriefs for proof.

For me, govt word is enough.

Black project tests are conducted at night.

> That approach is only for the UCAVs, not manned jet of 6gen what i actually call AHCA Mk1 which can be inducted by 2040-45 if made by discipline in PPP.

> After 15 years since 2010, citizens were thinking that AMCA metal cutting happened so its prototype is 50% completed. But now news say that PPP will start making it.

> A medium class engine like F414 or its JV equivalent has many use cases, but India's domestic capability in engine with Kaveri & UCAV with Ghatak & CATS Warrior is new, slow, unprepared for sudden war. 6gen is MUMT, the UCAVs can have small to medium engines but the manned jet needs higher electricity, ATWR (A/c Thrust to Weight Ratio), payload, hence high thrust engine, i've already shown preliminary calculations in AHCA thread long back. Initial batches may have 5gen engine then VCE.

> War will not wait till 2050s & won't be won with super delayed &/or obsolete stuff.

> The discussion is on our 6gen jet & you complicated it by a new parameter of "morphing wings".

> Your solution is to move slower for 25-30 years till all 100% components reach 6gen level in 2050s & probably import MiG-41. My idea of AHCA is a work-around of modular architecture, for IN+IAF, with higher payload, higher thrust engine, to use domestic & international PPP to make TD like YF-22, X-35, with some existing components within 10 years (2030-35) while the PPP/JV goes on & then make final jet & induct in 15-20 years (2040-45).

IAF prefers to meet that 2040+ goal using imports, not ADA. That's been my point all along. And that's happening.

ADA won't develop 6th gen for IAF, but IAF will get 6th gen through imports.

We see objects bcoz light gets reflected back to our eyes. Instead, if that light is deflected or refracted somewhere else then we'll see a black space in place of the object.

Radar sees things differently.

> On the contrary, hypersonic pilot might shit in spacesuit.

You mean space shuttles

> By MW class i don't mean just 1 MW but 10s of MW.

You mean that bright static site that can also be destroyed using much lighter airborne DEW?

DEW of that class has to be mobile or it's dead in the first minute of a war.

> By 100-150 tons you're talking about Tu-22M SIZED COMBAT JET, with the biggest RCS & IRS.

Tu-22 is a bomber so it needs a wide fuselage, but a fighter is compact. Anyway, it's 50T empty for the Mig-41, the rest will be payload.

And why is this so surprising? Fighters used to weigh 6T in the 50s and 60s, and doubled to 10-12T and later doubled to 20+T, and they got called medium and heavy. Now they will double again, for stratospheric reach.

Use common sense. You want double range, speed, and altitude on the same airframe as the Mig-31. In that world will that exist in.

Like i said i believe that high supersonic jets could be made.
I also do believe that space planes will return, at least for commercial purpose. Space Shuttle was just the beginning.
Some say that SR-72 like jet is an existing secret reality.
But a FUTURE MANNED HYPERSONIC COMBAT JET, it is highly unlikely looking at -
- hypersonic ABMs & VLR-SAMs,
- DEW development,
- the fortune cost, CAPEX, OPEX,
- satellite constellations,
- AI/ML development
- pilots wearing space suits & pulling high Gs,
- inter-state turning radius during high speeds.

Still, USA, Russia, China might try to play with their money.

I don't think such jets will be manned. While Mig-41 is an outlier, it's still going to be the first of its generation, like the Me 262 was. Future cousins will all be unmanned. Even Mig-41 will come later on in an unmanned form.

 

[randomradio]

Has ADA silently said "We can't make 6gen airframe, so please import something" ?

No, IAF said they can't wait 25 years for IOC.

If SCAF happens with IAF and IN also enters SCAF, then ADA will have no choice but to pursue 7th gen.