The Rat may be a consequence of something else because passenger 11A says:
and the pilots sent a distress message just before crashing.
Air India Ahmedabad-London flight crash
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Highly likely but not necessary. Let's see they have a 30 day timeline usually for a preliminary report.
Unfortunately, twitter is especially toxic towards people of colour no matter where you are from. This particular flame is being lit on Tik Tok (given a free run to Pakistani and Bangladeshi accounts and then follows onto X). The subcontinent based accounts provide the latest videos and screenshots/pictures from within India. I do not need to tell you how they do so. Also, anti-India engagements do well (if you are lucky and get picked by the algo) and result in a one-time cash hits. So every hard right to a moderately followed Pak account tries to grab the money. The sad part is India does not have any report or strategy to deal with these kinds of accounts. Obviously, the whammy is you have no social media of national or intl. stature to combat it. All I can say is do your part and report these posts. That's something citizens can do. Quite saddening to see such posts in midst of such loss of life. My prayers for all victims.
This ac was nearly fully booked and was on a flight to London. so easily it must have had around 65-70 tons of fuel in it. This would have taken the MTOW to a figure just short of structural MTOW by about 40 tons. This would have needed considerable amount of flaps for T/O. but what we see is that TE is nearly straight and does not show any flaps being used. This new video posted by Shiv Aroor also shows ac coming out of ground effect and it starts sinking after that.
Well he says it was after 30 secs which means he is talking of the impact of the tail plane with the hostel roof. It was there that the ac made first impact, slid over the roof and fell to the ground on the other side. From lift off to fireball it is 33 secs in total.
The Medical college hostel
And Students in the canteen during lunch time are the
Most unfortunate victims
Collateral damage of the worst kind
And Students in the canteen during lunch time are the
Most unfortunate victims
Collateral damage of the worst kind
Air India flight makes emergency landing in Phuket, after receiving a bomb threat, all passengers evacuated.
Unbelievable disaster. I thought out of 240, perhaps 10-30 might survive this kind of crach.
Condolence for the victims. Om Sadgatir Bhuyat
Unfortunately there were multi-level buildings in the way.
A decade back, i flew the 737 public simulators at Forum mall, Koramangala, Bengaluru & at Phoenix Market City mall in Kurla, Mumbai. It costed Rs 2,000 or 3,000 for 1 hour. For that i had to study the cockpit controls for few weeks. Regular public wouldn't care about it.
Numerous analysis vids are coming in, I watched many videos by professionals globally, civil & AF, active & retired. But very few explained some important cockpit contols & sub-systems.
Many airlines use cockpit camera. If Air India used it & if it survived the fire then it can give huge input.
Pre-flight checklist includes everything we can imagine. It has become digital.
"Cold & dark start" videos of both sims & real jet are there on YouTube.
The pilot has to program the FMC (Fight Management Computer) before each flight about -
- source, route & destination
- weight carried / MTOW
- V1, V2, Vr
- weather conditions
- flight limits of RPM, speed, altitude, EGT (Exhaust Gas temp.), etc at take-off, flight.
OPTIMUM/AUTO options are avaiable for each parameter but although highly unlikely but THEORETICALLY, if pilot sets inacurate limits then it can be disastrous.
This might be a hypothetical example if full throttle is opened then EGT goes high, but EGT limit is lower then it might reduce thrust & lift. so FMC programming needs to be done carefully.
Landing gears were down, so the pilots started facing problems immediately after takeoff.
Bird strike would cause engine flame, shattering, not visible in both videos.
Airports have many security guards & perimeter cameras which can give clue into 2engine bird strike.
I wonder if it could be overloading issue. I think Air India allows more luggage per person.
But there is flight plan entry in FMC about weight to be carried + atmosphere conditions, etc to set the take off thrust & flaps setting required.
If Air India allowed more luggage but THEORETICALLY wrong data to pilot was passed for FMC entry then it can be a coordination failure.
If we see the runway take off clip from left side, the flaps are down.
If we see the other video from right side, the flaps might still be down, but due to poor quality video & flexible shape of 787 wing it appears narrow.
The 787 & all airliners cockpit have manual flap lever, that too put into metal notches, need to lift the lever & reposition into another notch up/down, unlike fighter jets.
So AFAIK here the FCS won't retract the flaps, especially at low speeds.
Moreover it is in the S/w to sound alarm if flaps not set properly at low speeds, stall detection, etc.
If the pilots accidentally retracted them then immediate alarm woud sound & they can correct the lever position & gain altitude.
Leading edge slats are also auto-deployed at low speeds.
Slat & flaps deployed at takeoff :
All spoilers up & flaps, slats down while landing :
Technically, if the speed-brake/spoiler is operated wrong then it can kill lift, but it has its settings for ground, takeoff, flight & is tied to FMC/FCS.
After it starts decending, It rolls slightly to right then left then centers.
So electrical & hydraullic power to operate was there, which are redundant.
Li-ion battery problem was fixed. It is for initial system start & said to last 15 mins fully charged.
The APU is started & has 2x generators.
Engines have their own 2x generators. Then APU is shut down.
1x surviving engine can make the plane take off, fly around & do emergency landing.
The lone survivor said that after few seconds of takeoff electricity went out for few seconds & some say RAT was deployed. This way if engines lost power & with RAT they were restarted then there wasn't enough time to regain altitude.
But -
- The cockpit overhead panel has separate switches & knobs for cabin utility & HVAC, even for cargo compartment.
- when diagram shows eletrical redundancies from 4 generators then how can both engines loose electricity?
There is Electronic Engine Control or EEC also, After achieving sufficient N2 rotation, the EEC Is powered by its associated PMA, (Permanent Magnet Alternator).
It continiously monitors throttle, provides protection against flame-out during ecess rain, hail.
It monitors N1, N2, N3 spool speeds also & if RPM limit crossed then fuel flow would be reduced to lower the RPMs.
The EEC shuts down the engine only if RPM limiting fails & overspeed condition occurs.
If fuel-switch is accidentally shut off then EEC can electronically turn it & ignitors on.
There is TAP (Thrust Asymmetry Protection).
On ground it'll shut down engine if above idle speed and not decelerating normally.
During take-off if 1 engine fails then TAP reduces thrust on surviving engine to safeguard rudder/yaw control.
TAP is only available when flight controls are in normal mode.
The Airborne Vibration And Monitoring System tracks engine vibration levels (Rotor Imbalance), which is displayed on the secondary engine display, including the source. i.e., N1, N2 or N3.
Poor quality fuel? The petroleum companies need to follow ISO & other standards, quality inspections. This violation would affect multiple jets & would be a huge scam.
Some say maintenance issues, clogged fuel lines/pumps/valves/filter, etc. But everything is redundant -
- fuel pumps (LP, HP),
- filters (LP, HP),
- igniters,
- combustion chambers are annular,
- fuel lines are redundantly cross fed too. AFAIK, IMO 1 or 2 pumps only could have clogging but will be taken care of by redundancy.
Last but not least, if the air data sensors are clogged then it can be big problem. Although there are multiple of them for redundancy but accidents due to them have happened.
Condolence for the victims. Om Sadgatir Bhuyat
Unfortunately there were multi-level buildings in the way.
A decade back, i flew the 737 public simulators at Forum mall, Koramangala, Bengaluru & at Phoenix Market City mall in Kurla, Mumbai. It costed Rs 2,000 or 3,000 for 1 hour. For that i had to study the cockpit controls for few weeks. Regular public wouldn't care about it.
Numerous analysis vids are coming in, I watched many videos by professionals globally, civil & AF, active & retired. But very few explained some important cockpit contols & sub-systems.
Many airlines use cockpit camera. If Air India used it & if it survived the fire then it can give huge input.
Pre-flight checklist includes everything we can imagine. It has become digital.
"Cold & dark start" videos of both sims & real jet are there on YouTube.
The pilot has to program the FMC (Fight Management Computer) before each flight about -
- source, route & destination
- weight carried / MTOW
- V1, V2, Vr
- weather conditions
- flight limits of RPM, speed, altitude, EGT (Exhaust Gas temp.), etc at take-off, flight.
OPTIMUM/AUTO options are avaiable for each parameter but although highly unlikely but THEORETICALLY, if pilot sets inacurate limits then it can be disastrous.
This might be a hypothetical example if full throttle is opened then EGT goes high, but EGT limit is lower then it might reduce thrust & lift. so FMC programming needs to be done carefully.
Landing gears were down, so the pilots started facing problems immediately after takeoff.
Bird strike would cause engine flame, shattering, not visible in both videos.
Airports have many security guards & perimeter cameras which can give clue into 2engine bird strike.
I wonder if it could be overloading issue. I think Air India allows more luggage per person.
But there is flight plan entry in FMC about weight to be carried + atmosphere conditions, etc to set the take off thrust & flaps setting required.
If Air India allowed more luggage but THEORETICALLY wrong data to pilot was passed for FMC entry then it can be a coordination failure.
If we see the runway take off clip from left side, the flaps are down.
If we see the other video from right side, the flaps might still be down, but due to poor quality video & flexible shape of 787 wing it appears narrow.
The 787 & all airliners cockpit have manual flap lever, that too put into metal notches, need to lift the lever & reposition into another notch up/down, unlike fighter jets.
So AFAIK here the FCS won't retract the flaps, especially at low speeds.
Moreover it is in the S/w to sound alarm if flaps not set properly at low speeds, stall detection, etc.
If the pilots accidentally retracted them then immediate alarm woud sound & they can correct the lever position & gain altitude.
Leading edge slats are also auto-deployed at low speeds.
Slat & flaps deployed at takeoff :
All spoilers up & flaps, slats down while landing :
Technically, if the speed-brake/spoiler is operated wrong then it can kill lift, but it has its settings for ground, takeoff, flight & is tied to FMC/FCS.
After it starts decending, It rolls slightly to right then left then centers.
So electrical & hydraullic power to operate was there, which are redundant.
Li-ion battery problem was fixed. It is for initial system start & said to last 15 mins fully charged.
The APU is started & has 2x generators.
Engines have their own 2x generators. Then APU is shut down.
1x surviving engine can make the plane take off, fly around & do emergency landing.
The lone survivor said that after few seconds of takeoff electricity went out for few seconds & some say RAT was deployed. This way if engines lost power & with RAT they were restarted then there wasn't enough time to regain altitude.
But -
- The cockpit overhead panel has separate switches & knobs for cabin utility & HVAC, even for cargo compartment.
- when diagram shows eletrical redundancies from 4 generators then how can both engines loose electricity?
There is Electronic Engine Control or EEC also, After achieving sufficient N2 rotation, the EEC Is powered by its associated PMA, (Permanent Magnet Alternator).
It continiously monitors throttle, provides protection against flame-out during ecess rain, hail.
It monitors N1, N2, N3 spool speeds also & if RPM limit crossed then fuel flow would be reduced to lower the RPMs.
The EEC shuts down the engine only if RPM limiting fails & overspeed condition occurs.
If fuel-switch is accidentally shut off then EEC can electronically turn it & ignitors on.
There is TAP (Thrust Asymmetry Protection).
On ground it'll shut down engine if above idle speed and not decelerating normally.
During take-off if 1 engine fails then TAP reduces thrust on surviving engine to safeguard rudder/yaw control.
TAP is only available when flight controls are in normal mode.
The Airborne Vibration And Monitoring System tracks engine vibration levels (Rotor Imbalance), which is displayed on the secondary engine display, including the source. i.e., N1, N2 or N3.
Poor quality fuel? The petroleum companies need to follow ISO & other standards, quality inspections. This violation would affect multiple jets & would be a huge scam.
Some say maintenance issues, clogged fuel lines/pumps/valves/filter, etc. But everything is redundant -
- fuel pumps (LP, HP),
- filters (LP, HP),
- igniters,
- combustion chambers are annular,
- fuel lines are redundantly cross fed too. AFAIK, IMO 1 or 2 pumps only could have clogging but will be taken care of by redundancy.
Last but not least, if the air data sensors are clogged then it can be big problem. Although there are multiple of them for redundancy but accidents due to them have happened.
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I have seen a few videos of some inservice pilots and retired pilots from western world and I am shocked to see how badly they are informed. Even a B-777 capt has made an absolute fool of himself on youtube.
B787 is a FBW control ac. It has Alpha floor protection. First introduced in A-320 series by French. I have over 3k hrs on just A-320 series as PIC. I had suffered FBW failure after T/O from Srinagar airport in 2006 and landed back safely in srinagar and did the rectification myself. AND do you know what the rectification? Just removed complete power from the ac including switching off baterries for 5 mins, went out had a cig, came back and went thru full system BITE.. The system auto corrected itself and flew back to Delhi.
Firstly you just cant T/O with T/O config deviation as the whole cockpit will have so many warnings going off that you will be completely distracted. Only a pilot on death wish will do a take off with such warnings ON. Most weastern world pilots are trying to say that bcoz the U/C was down, it means that the F/O retarcted flaps instead of lndg gear. They are doing it to bring bad repute to Indian pilots who have proven themselves to be far superior to them in every nation not only in knowledge but also flying skills.
What these so called idiots being watched acrooss the world do not know is that the Alpha floor Protection cuts in the moment alpha rises to a critical value and the auto throttle/autothrusts cuts in which automatically takes the power to max available thrust and also deploys flaps for the prevailing airspeed to save the ac and prevent it from stalling. So even if we believe their bullsh#t, the delibrate retraction of flaps by F/O by mistake should have activated alpha floor protection and the flaps would have been redeployed and ac recovered to safe flight parameters. The flight directors provide guiding cues to pilot on EADI.
I had very clearly stated that my opinion was both engine failure due to fuel contamination or bird hit. Later I talked of other possibilities. Please ignore western media experts and listen to what comes out of DFDR & CVR. The mayday call has not been shared, but I have come to know that pilots very clearly gave out a Mayday call giving out loss of thrust on both engines. Keeping gear down in such a case was a good decision as they may have looked to put the ac down in some safe flat area which would have helped the ac absorb the impact of such a surface thru lndg gear intitial followed by the underbelly of the ac which is designed to take the impact of such landings.
IMHO, the pilots faced with certain death tried their best to minimise casualties on ground till they died. Let us celebrate their valour and not prove them guilty without an investigation.
B787 is a FBW control ac. It has Alpha floor protection. First introduced in A-320 series by French. I have over 3k hrs on just A-320 series as PIC. I had suffered FBW failure after T/O from Srinagar airport in 2006 and landed back safely in srinagar and did the rectification myself. AND do you know what the rectification? Just removed complete power from the ac including switching off baterries for 5 mins, went out had a cig, came back and went thru full system BITE.. The system auto corrected itself and flew back to Delhi.
Firstly you just cant T/O with T/O config deviation as the whole cockpit will have so many warnings going off that you will be completely distracted. Only a pilot on death wish will do a take off with such warnings ON. Most weastern world pilots are trying to say that bcoz the U/C was down, it means that the F/O retarcted flaps instead of lndg gear. They are doing it to bring bad repute to Indian pilots who have proven themselves to be far superior to them in every nation not only in knowledge but also flying skills.
What these so called idiots being watched acrooss the world do not know is that the Alpha floor Protection cuts in the moment alpha rises to a critical value and the auto throttle/autothrusts cuts in which automatically takes the power to max available thrust and also deploys flaps for the prevailing airspeed to save the ac and prevent it from stalling. So even if we believe their bullsh#t, the delibrate retraction of flaps by F/O by mistake should have activated alpha floor protection and the flaps would have been redeployed and ac recovered to safe flight parameters. The flight directors provide guiding cues to pilot on EADI.
I had very clearly stated that my opinion was both engine failure due to fuel contamination or bird hit. Later I talked of other possibilities. Please ignore western media experts and listen to what comes out of DFDR & CVR. The mayday call has not been shared, but I have come to know that pilots very clearly gave out a Mayday call giving out loss of thrust on both engines. Keeping gear down in such a case was a good decision as they may have looked to put the ac down in some safe flat area which would have helped the ac absorb the impact of such a surface thru lndg gear intitial followed by the underbelly of the ac which is designed to take the impact of such landings.
IMHO, the pilots faced with certain death tried their best to minimise casualties on ground till they died. Let us celebrate their valour and not prove them guilty without an investigation.
Have you ever heard of standby instruments which give us raw data like good old Cessna C-152? It is there in B-737-400 onwards till every other ac made by boeing and also in every A-320 series and beyond.Unbelievable disaster. I thought out of 240, perhaps 10-30 might survive this kind of crach.
Condolence for the victims. Om Sadgatir Bhuyat
Unfortunately there were multi-level buildings in the way.
A decade back, i flew the 737 public simulators at Forum mall, Koramangala, Bengaluru & at Phoenix Market City mall in Kurla, Mumbai. It costed Rs 2,000 or 3,000 for 1 hour. For that i had to study the cockpit controls for few weeks. Regular public wouldn't care about it.
Numerous analysis vids are coming in, I watched many videos by professionals globally, civil & AF, active & retired. But very few explained some important cockpit contols & sub-systems.
Many airlines use cockpit camera. If Air India used it & if it survived the fire then it can give huge input.
Pre-flight checklist includes everything we can imagine. It has become digital.
View attachment 44348
"Cold & dark start" videos of both sims & real jet are there on YouTube.
The pilot has to program the FMC (Fight Management Computer) before each flight about -
- source, route & destination
- weight carried / MTOW
- V1, V2, Vr
- weather conditions
- flight limits of RPM, speed, altitude, EGT (Exhaust Gas temp.), etc at take-off, flight.
OPTIMUM/AUTO options are avaiable for each parameter but although highly unlikely but THEORETICALLY, if pilot sets inacurate limits then it can be disastrous.
This might be a hypothetical example if full throttle is opened then EGT goes high, but EGT limit is lower then it might reduce thrust & lift. so FMC programming needs to be done carefully.
View attachment 44349
Landing gears were down, so the pilots started facing problems immediately after takeoff.
Bird strike would cause engine flame, shattering, not visible in both videos.
Airports have many security guards & perimeter cameras which can give clue into 2engine bird strike.
I wonder if it could be overloading issue. I think Air India allows more luggage per person.
But there is flight plan entry in FMC about weight to be carried + atmosphere conditions, etc to set the take off thrust & flaps setting required.
If Air India allowed more luggage but THEORETICALLY wrong data to pilot was passed for FMC entry then it can be a coordination failure.
If we see the runway take off clip from left side, the flaps are down.
If we see the other video from right side, the flaps might still be down, but due to poor quality video & flexible shape of 787 wing it appears narrow.
The 787 & all airliners cockpit have manual flap lever, that too put into metal notches, need to lift the lever & reposition into another notch up/down, unlike fighter jets.
So AFAIK here the FCS won't retract the flaps, especially at low speeds.
Moreover it is in the S/w to sound alarm if flaps not set properly at low speeds, stall detection, etc.
If the pilots accidentally retracted them then immediate alarm woud sound & they can correct the lever position & gain altitude.
Leading edge slats are also auto-deployed at low speeds.
View attachment 44350
Slat & flaps deployed at takeoff :
View attachment 44351
All spoilers up & flaps, slats down while landing :
View attachment 44352
Technically, if the speed-brake/spoiler is operated wrong then it can kill lift, but it has its settings for ground, takeoff, flight & is tied to FMC/FCS.
View attachment 44353
After it starts decending, It rolls slightly to right then left then centers.
So electrical & hydraullic power to operate was there, which are redundant.
Li-ion battery problem was fixed. It is for initial system start & said to last 15 mins fully charged.
The APU is started & has 2x generators.
Engines have their own 2x generators. Then APU is shut down.
1x surviving engine can make the plane take off, fly around & do emergency landing.
View attachment 44354
The lone survivor said that after few seconds of takeoff electricity went out for few seconds & some say RAT was deployed. This way if engines lost power & with RAT they were restarted then there wasn't enough time to regain altitude.
But -
- The cockpit overhead panel has separate switches & knobs for cabin utility & HVAC, even for cargo compartment.
- when diagram shows eletrical redundancies from 4 generators then how can both engines loose electricity?
There is Electronic Engine Control or EEC also, After achieving sufficient N2 rotation, the EEC Is powered by its associated PMA, (Permanent Magnet Alternator).
It continiously monitors throttle, provides protection against flame-out during ecess rain, hail.
It monitors N1, N2, N3 spool speeds also & if RPM limit crossed then fuel flow would be reduced to lower the RPMs.
The EEC shuts down the engine only if RPM limiting fails & overspeed condition occurs.
If fuel-switch is accidentally shut off then EEC can electronically turn it & ignitors on.
View attachment 44355
There is TAP (Thrust Asymmetry Protection).
On ground it'll shut down engine if above idle speed and not decelerating normally.
During take-off if 1 engine fails then TAP reduces thrust on surviving engine to safeguard rudder/yaw control.
TAP is only available when flight controls are in normal mode.
The Airborne Vibration And Monitoring System tracks engine vibration levels (Rotor Imbalance), which is displayed on the secondary engine display, including the source. i.e., N1, N2 or N3.
Poor quality fuel? The petroleum companies need to follow ISO & other standards, quality inspections. This violation would affect multiple jets & would be a huge scam.
Some say maintenance issues, clogged fuel lines/pumps/valves/filter, etc. But everything is redundant -
- fuel pumps (LP, HP),
- filters (LP, HP),
- igniters,
- combustion chambers are annular,
- fuel lines are redundantly cross fed too. AFAIK, IMO 1 or 2 pumps only could have clogging but will be taken care of by redundancy.
View attachment 44356
Last but not least, if the air data sensors are clogged then it can be big problem. Although there are multiple of them for redundancy but accidents due to them have happened.
How do we tell he's ex-Air India? He's provided no proof of his identity.
Another propaganda piece.
If you want your contribution to be useful & understood, especially being aviation professional, then i request that rather than responding in generic, drop by drop, you should be very precise with pic, diagram, etc what analog instrument you are talking about & how will it help, that too in this specific situation.
Thanks & regards.
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All sort of experts are coming out with their own theories and peddling them on the internet. No one wants to wait for the Black Box to be analysed (it has already been found and is in hands of the relevant organisations).
Black Box Of Air India Plane Recovered From The Crash Site In Ahmedabad
The black box of the Air India Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner that crashed immediately after take-off in Ahmedabad yesterday has been found.
www.ndtv.com
All thanks to our over zealous media that wants to hit TRPs for a six while they still can. Those experts are hardly to blame. They just want to make a quick buck.All sort of experts are coming out with their own theories and peddling them on the internet. No one wants to wait for the Black Box to be analysed (it has already been found and is in hands of the relevant organisations).
Black Box Of Air India Plane Recovered From The Crash Site In Ahmedabad
The black box of the Air India Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner that crashed immediately after take-off in Ahmedabad yesterday has been found.
All sort of experts are coming out with their own theories and peddling them on the internet. No one wants to wait for the Black Box to be analysed (it has already been found and is in hands of the relevant organisations).
Black Box Of Air India Plane Recovered From The Crash Site In Ahmedabad
The black box of the Air India Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner that crashed immediately after take-off in Ahmedabad yesterday has been found.
But guys, that's how human nature works, just like people talk F2F, social media enables to talk online. There are qualified citizens also.
For example, after being an engineer for 20 years, having different types of engineers among relatives & neighborhood, unfortunately i don't have a single person in my office, relatives, neighborhood to discuss on defence & aviation. They like cricket, politics, movies, at max cars, bikes, gadgets. So i've to come to forums like this.
You really expect people to remain silent till preliminary report after black box decode which could take days to weeks, then public should not talk on defence matters also till MWF, AMCA flies for example, till a new tank rolls out, till a new boat, sub goes for 1st trial, etc.
Lock some of the threads on all forums, social sites & just watch news channels.
