Airborne Early Warning Systems - A-50EI Phalcon, DRDO Netra AEW&C, DRDO AWACS

[randomradio]

I'm aware that the Phalcons use Il-78. I wrote what I did is coz there's no news of the Phalcons post approval by DAC or CCS on further orders & suddenly we've had this development of the DRDO - A-330 combination. Seems to me as if they've permanently dropped the Phalcons for these 2 prototypes.

Regarding the NETRA, I don't see the blacklisting of EMBRAER as a great impediment. Rather, the IAF was more keen on Phalcon type AWACS & as usual weren't too confident on DRDO's ability to deliver that they grudgingly decided to accept 3 AEW's from them, after a great deal of persuasion. Sort of like the via media MP worked out with the LCA - Mk1a before the definitive Mk2 / MWF materialized. Also this was part of the learning curve on DRDO's part.

There wasn't any follow up plan post delivery of the 3 by the IAF. Incidentally, the 3rd NETRA has been retained by the DRDO for further testing. For all you know, post the 26th & 27 th Feb developments, the IAF may just about revisit their stance on the NETRAs & ask for the next iteration. Fingers crossed.

The plan was to operate dozens of Netra. But the plan was shelved after Embraer corruption and the fact that such types of AWACS are not good enough for the needs of the IAF. The Chinese suffered from the same problem, that's why they gave up on their KJ-200 in exchange for KJ-500. They are now looking to sell their KJ-200s. The lack of capability of such a design is why the IAF doesn't want it. So keep your fingers free for something more useful, like a second batch of Rafales.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The plan was to operate dozens of Netra. But the plan was shelved after Embraer corruption and the fact that such types of AWACS are not good enough for the needs of the IAF. The Chinese suffered from the same problem, that's why they gave up on their KJ-200 in exchange for KJ-500. They are now looking to sell their KJ-200s. The lack of capability of such a design is why the IAF doesn't want it. So keep your fingers free for something more useful, like a second batch of Rafales.

& what happens to the dearth in AEW/ AWACS? I suppose if there happens to be a Balakote type situation again in the next 5-7 years, the hand wringing will commence yet once more. We've already read reports that the Phalcons lack endurance. Presumably that's on a/c of the Il-78. From this day to 2025-26 we've got to make do with the 3+2 AWACS & AEW we have. But to you, on the bright side, we'd have more Rafales to compensate for it. As if it's an either or situation.

 

[randomradio]

& what happens to the dearth in AEW/ AWACS? I suppose if there happens to be a Balakote type situation again in the next 5-7 years, the hand wringing will commence yet once more. We've already read reports that the Phalcons lack endurance. Presumably that's on a/c of the Il-78. From this day to 2025-26 we've got to make do with the 3+2 AWACS & AEW we have. But to you, on the bright side, we'd have more Rafales to compensate for it. As if it's an either or situation.

In 5-7 years, we will have 10 new AWACS, 2 more Phalcons and 8 A330s. The IAF would rather wait than waste money on something like Netra.

Simply having AWACS for the sake of having it when it can't fulfill all requirements is pointless. Ground control would be a much better option instead. All you need is a radar on a balloon and it will do a better job than the Netra does.

Quietly Effective, Vigilant Airborne ISR

Btw, 36 Rafale is much better than even 36 Netras.

 

[_Anonymous_]

In 5-7 years, we will have 10 new AWACS, 2 more Phalcons and 8 A330s. The IAF would rather wait than waste money on something like Netra.

Simply having AWACS for the sake of having it when it can't fulfill all requirements is pointless. Ground control would be a much better option instead. All you need is a radar on a balloon and it will do a better job than the Netra does.

Quietly Effective, Vigilant Airborne ISR

Btw, 36 Rafale is much better than even 36 Netras.

I thought in 5-7 years we'd be receiving 2 prototypes of the DRDO - A330 AWACS. Possibly 2 more Phalcons too. Where did you come up with the additional 6 AWACS?

If ground control is so good, why do we need AWACS? Let's go in for multiple balloons + mounted radars. I'm glad you didn't mention SAR based satellites or redeployment of P-8i which @Falcon opined were as good or perhaps better than the Phalcons.

Did we ever have a plan to procure 36 NETRAS? And are you telling me that each NETRA costs 225 million USD ( since that's the LCC of each Rafale inclusive of customized India specific upgrades, etc) ?

 

[randomradio]

I thought in 5-7 years we'd be receiving 2 prototypes of the DRDO - A330 AWACS. Possibly 2 more Phalcons too. Where did you come up with the additional 6 AWACS?

They will all be delivered starting from 2024.

If ground control is so good, why do we need AWACS? Let's go in for multiple balloons + mounted radars.

It's not AWACS, it's Netra. Ground control with balloons is better than Netra. What IAF needs is Phalcon level AWACS.

I'm glad you didn't mention SAR based satellites or redeployment of P-8i which @Falcon opined were as good or perhaps better than the Phalcons.

P-8I does pretty much the same thing as Phalcon, and is most definitely better than Netra.

Did we ever have a plan to procure 36 NETRAS? And are you telling me that each NETRA costs 225 million USD ( since that's the LCC of each Rafale inclusive of customized India specific upgrades, etc) ?

Doesn't matter. Netra is useless, whether it's $30M or $300M. That's why even the Chinese are getting rid of it. In an actual fight, it will get shot down.

 

[Aniruddha]

I think we should go for atleast 10 more C-295 aircraft as our AWACS platform. Tbe unit cost of C-295 is $28 million whereas platforms like A330,Netra cost north of $200 million per plane. Also prototype testing of C-295 with a EL/W-2090 radar-dome has already been done. It will be a great aircraft to boost the number of AWACS in our fleet.
Small number of A330, Il78 based AWACS platform supplemented by large no of C-295 based AWACS would be ideal for IAF and would be a great force multiplier.
Also I had read somewhere that the IAF wanted DRDO to add aerial refueling capabilities to A330 AWACS program. So basically the IAF wanted 6 A330 AWACS cum aerial refuelers. Any news on that??

 

[Abhay rajput]

They will all be delivered starting from 2024.



It's not AWACS, it's Netra. Ground control with balloons is better than Netra. What IAF needs is Phalcon level AWACS.



P-8I does pretty much the same thing as Phalcon, and is most definitely better than Netra.



Doesn't matter. Netra is useless, whether it's $30M or $300M. That's why even the Chinese are getting rid of it. In an actual fight, it will get shot down.

Really which radar does p8i have ..?
I don't think that for a second that p8 is better awacs than phalcon

 

[Deathstar]

Really which radar does p8i have ..?
I don't think that for a second that p8 is better awacs than phalcon

The aircraft is equipped with a CAE AN/ASQ-508A magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system, APS-143C(V)3 multimode radar and a global version of the Raytheon APY-10 surveillance radar.

 

[Abhay rajput]

The aircraft is equipped with a CAE AN/ASQ-508A magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system, APS-143C(V)3 multimode radar and a global version of the Raytheon APY-10 surveillance radar.

Mad is not for that..? My point is that phalcon radar is way better than p8 ones.

 

[_Anonymous_]

They will all be delivered starting from 2024.

I see you still seem to be optimistic that we'd achieve the 5 billion USD GDP that Modi refers to & the state of our arms procurement & armed forces will be a case of...and they lived happily like the Grimm bros fairytales.
Hence post 2024-25 , our defense budget should triple if not double.

It's not AWACS, it's Netra. Ground control with balloons is better than Netra. What IAF needs is Phalcon level AWACS.

Phalon AWACS have low endurance. DRDO led team have yet to demonstrate their take on Phalcons & hence it's efficacy.Which is why, I presume, we're going in for just 2 A-330 as some sort of a TD + prototype.Add lack of money to it too.

P-8I does pretty much the same thing as Phalcon, and is most definitely better than Netra.

Agreed. It's a wonder, MoD didn't ask IAF to request IN to fly in P-8i to make up the nos. With the paucity of finance, our babus being better Indians than you & me instantly conjure up the magic word - yes you've got it - jugaad. Also it's a good thing you aren't in the MoD. We'd see plenty of aerostats & blimps around then.

Doesn't matter. Netra is useless, whether it's $30M or $300M. That's why even the Chinese are getting rid of it. In an actual fight, it will get shot down.

I thought in an actual fight, our AWACS are at risk too. If we plan on getting Rafale with Meteors, I doubt the Pakistanis will be sitting on their haunches. And the Chinese will most certainly oblige them.

 

[randomradio]

Really which radar does p8i have ..?
I don't think that for a second that p8 is better awacs than phalcon

It's not better, but it's X band, so it has really good weapons-track level accuracy. And it's pretty big so it has a lot of range.

Phalcon's radar is only good for volume scan.

I think we should go for atleast 10 more C-295 aircraft as our AWACS platform. Tbe unit cost of C-295 is $28 million whereas platforms like A330,Netra cost north of $200 million per plane. Also prototype testing of C-295 with a EL/W-2090 radar-dome has already been done. It will be a great aircraft to boost the number of AWACS in our fleet.
Small number of A330, Il78 based AWACS platform supplemented by large no of C-295 based AWACS would be ideal for IAF and would be a great force multiplier.
Also I had read somewhere that the IAF wanted DRDO to add aerial refueling capabilities to A330 AWACS program. So basically the IAF wanted 6 A330 AWACS cum aerial refuelers. Any news on that??

The C-295 is not suitable for AWACS. It has neither speed nor altitude.

 

[randomradio]

I see you still seem to be optimistic that we'd achieve the 5 billion USD GDP that Modi refers to & the state of our arms procurement & armed forces will be a case of...and they lived happily like the Grimm bros fairytales.
Hence post 2024-25 , our defense budget should triple if not double.

Meh.

Phalon AWACS have low endurance.

Where did you get that from? First time hearing a strategic airlifter doesn't have endurance.

Netra's endurance is half that of Phalcon's. Never mind the fact that Phalcon is capable of mid-air refueling as well.

DRDO led team have yet to demonstrate their take on Phalcons & hence it's efficacy.Which is why, I presume, we're going in for just 2 A-330 as some sort of a TD + prototype.Add lack of money to it too.

Ordering 2 'cause they are needed for development. After this, 6 more will be ordered, and then 6 more after that.

Agreed. It's a wonder, MoD didn't ask IAF to request IN to fly in P-8i to make up the nos. With the paucity of finance, our babus being better Indians than you & me instantly conjure up the magic word - yes you've got it - jugaad. Also it's a good thing you aren't in the MoD. We'd see plenty of aerostats & blimps around then.

There are plenty of aerostats around.

I thought in an actual fight, our AWACS are at risk too. If we plan on getting Rafale with Meteors, I doubt the Pakistanis will be sitting on their haunches. And the Chinese will most certainly oblige them.

Netra has blind spots, so fighter jets can kill it with cannons, forget Meteor.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Meh.

I believe ba ba black sheep is the new "meh".

Where did you get that from? First time hearing a strategic airlifter doesn't have endurance. 

#69 . Same thread .

Netra's endurance is half that of Phalcon's. Never mind the fact that Phalcon is capable of mid-air refueling as well.

Same as above.

Ordering 2 'cause they are needed for development. After this, 6 more will be ordered, and then 6 more after that.

That's not what you said. You said within 5-7 years, we'd have 10 AWACS.

There are plenty of aerostats around.

Can always be more as per you.

Netra has blind spots, so fighter jets can kill it with cannons, forget Meteor.

If NETRA can be taken out with a cannon, HTT wouldn't have been in contention. We all know where that argument went. You should make that one your status out here like they make pinned tweets on Twitter.

 

[randomradio]

I believe ba ba black sheep is the new "meh".

I was speaking your language.

#69 . Same thread .

That's only comparing to a jetliner like the A330. This goes even more to show that Netra is even more useless.

That's not what you said. You said within 5-7 years, we'd have 10 AWACS.

Yep. 2 Phalcons, 8 A330s, and then 6 more A330s, which will come in by 2030.

Can always be more as per you.

If Netra is the alternative. But there are many more aerostats coming, especially indigenous ones.

If NETRA can be taken out with a cannon, HTT wouldn't have been in contention. We all know where that argument went. You should make that one your status out here like they make pinned tweets on Twitter.

 

[Abhay rajput]

It's not better, but it's X band, so it has really good weapons-track level accuracy. And it's pretty big so it has a lot of range.

Phalcon's radar is only good for volume scan.


The C-295 is not suitable for AWACS. It has neither speed nor altitude.

Well ofcourse they will have good accuracy because of S band.. but they also have very short ranges . Awacs were made for detection and tracking nor guiding missiles per say

 

[randomradio]

Well ofcourse they will have good accuracy because of S band.. but they also have very short ranges . Awacs were made for detection and tracking nor guiding missiles per say

X band. And no, it doesn't have short range.

And it's not just that. It's much more newer than Phalcon, and was developed using a lot more money. And unlike Phalcon, it has undergone a regular series of improvements over the years.

 

[Abhay rajput]

X band. And no, it doesn't have short range.

And it's not just that. It's much more newer than Phalcon, and was developed using a lot more money. And unlike Phalcon, it has undergone a regular series of improvements over the years.

I think the bigger the better . 360 degree scanning for very long range .
If p8 were better than airforce would be buying them for awacs..

 

[randomradio]

I think the bigger the better . 360 degree scanning for very long range .
If p8 were better than airforce would be buying them for awacs..

The problem is you are simplifying something that's supposed to be complex.

 

[Abhay rajput]

The problem is you are simplifying something that's supposed to be complex.

Sir my only point is that p8 radars are not better than phalcon in terms of Airborne Early Warning aircraft (AWACS).

 

[Sathya]

Netra even if it lacked in capabilities, was available to fly all the time.

It was also acting sort of decoy, announcing it's movement s in flight radar.

Indigenous platform and radar gives that unprecedented availability.

We must move towards acheiving it along with increase in capabilities.

If we make C295 , we should use it in place of Emb.