Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

So, where exactly does the Brahmos-NG fits in all of this? The only case I can think of is using it on the SSN

NGC , NGMV , etc. Besides there's no hard & fast rule that Brahmos NG won't go in the future warships we're building apart from the ones listed above. SSNs are a decade + away. The air launched Brahmos NG would be available in 2024-25 acc to Dr Rane CEO of Brahmos Aerospace Corp.

 

[randomradio]

That is probably because Meteor is a2a, lighter airframe & launched at high altitude, motor burntime is less + SFDR based, not liquid ramjet. For a ground launched heavyweight missile like STAR/Brahmos a combination of solid booster and LFRJ is ideal for peak performance, even with spillage we will still get 2.8 high mach travel that can sustain for 10 mins plus. Fuel does matter though, kerosene gives very lower burn, at 1000K. That is why they add more additives to it. But Boron, Hydrogen fuel, Aluminium based propellant are of much higher quality. There is a chart in one of the pdf above for it. Tradeoff is one easier to handle, the others are not, hydrogen fuel cracking need high maintenance.

Honestly the hypersonic regime , all the CFD studies I have seen are in 6-8mach ranged & scramjet based where Hydrogen fuel will be used. With spillage the peak performance we will get will be somewhere between 6.2-7mach range imo. Whatever Rus gives us, they will insist on the core propulsion engine being bought from them like now, and they will certainly create a lower speed derivative of Zircon, ie a set of parameter satisfying our HSTDV boundary conditions. Zircon got a very good propellant that has fantastic burn, but unlikely that will be shared.

Let's hope they get to what's been promised. Anyway, yeah, you get top speed only at high altitude.

It may have already been tested as well. Brahmos 2 will get a new propellent. That's how the Russians work with export missiles. Whatever end speed we achieve is dependent on the airframe and materials we have managed to design. It could go even higher than Zircon if they are able. A scientist said even mach 13 is doable, so mach 7 to 13.

 

[randomradio]

If we try to increase speed to such 4.5mach level almost certainly the design will have to be modified again to satisfy the boundary conditions

They are yet to release images.

ie our own ramjet engine will need to be created.

Brahmos will only have a Russian engine. Any attempts to replace it will happen in a parallel indigenous program. Doesn't make sense for us to share such details with the Russians. It's unlikely for us to have such a plan after MTCR as well, money can be dumped into scramjet instead.

Our STAR itself will also have the same mach 3 speed per reports.

It's a completely different requirement though.

 

[randomradio]

IN operates Brahmos from most of its capital warships. They are very satisfied with it. Even, the Next Generation vessels are going to use Brahmos. We are developing SLCM for the subs as Brahmos is too big for them and is very costly.

So, where exactly does the Brahmos-NG fits in all of this? The only case I can think of is using it on the SSN.

As a smaller missile, it can fit inside the torpedo tubes of conventional submarines. It can also be modified for use from other ship and sub VLS. Anyway, the SLCM plays a complementary role, and will have more range. With our future consisting of bigger subs, that would mean bigger magazines as well, so both types can be carried.

SSNs should be able to carry the standard Brahmos with all that additional range.

The main impact will be felt on aircraft though.

 

[randomradio]

For starter I am not sure NG will have ground launch version yet, they have shown it mostly on the jets, su30, LCA probably. So it maybe air launched predominantly at first, later ground based derivative?

It's a tri-services missile. It can replace the existing Brahmos 1 inventories wherever range isn't such a big criteria, like the army's SCs. The army has no need to attack anything beyond 400Km, that's the IAF's job.

 

[marich01]

It's a tri-services missile. It can replace the existing Brahmos 1 inventories wherever range isn't such a big criteria, like the army's SCs. The army has no need to attack anything beyond 400Km, that's the IAF's job.

Per my understanding NG is mainly export oriented, they are eyeing sukhoi & other Rus jet operators to use this without the extra hardening work on the center carriage pylon. Plus our own future jets will have it included on weapons package offered for export. NG will be 100% indigenised so maybe, just maybe it will have our own ramjet who knows, independent of Rus? Yes its likely for IN & IAF oriented no doubt, and for export market.

 

[randomradio]

Per my understanding NG is mainly export oriented, they are eyeing sukhoi & other Rus jet operators to use this without the extra hardening work on the center carriage pylon. Plus our own future jets will have it included on weapons package offered for export. NG will be 100% indigenised so maybe, just maybe it will have our own ramjet who knows, independent of Rus? Yes its likely for IN & IAF oriented no doubt, and for export market.

Brahmos is a JV, so it will stay that way. There was another indigenous attempt at making a long range equivalent, but once MTCR happened, we didn't need it for obvious reasons. Of course, there might be a long term plan, while I haven't seen any indications of it, it could happen, but it could be a political decision in case things sour between India and Russia. Indian production of the engine could happen though. When they say 6-8 years, that's how long they expect it to take the Indian company chosen to absorb the ToT. So it's something for the 2030s to worry about. But it would still mean the engine will be Russian IP, but old enough to be given away to India.

NG is not being made for export, the primary customer is still India. It just has far better export prospects.

 

[marich01]

Brahmos is a JV, so it will stay that way. There was another indigenous attempt at making a long range equivalent, but once MTCR happened, we didn't need it for obvious reasons. Of course, there might be a long term plan, while I haven't seen any indications of it, it could happen, but it could be a political decision in case things sour between India and Russia. Indian production of the engine could happen though. When they say 6-8 years, that's how long they expect it to take the Indian company chosen to absorb the ToT. So it's something for the 2030s to worry about. But it would still mean the engine will be Russian IP, but old enough to be given away to India.

NG is not being made for export, the primary customer is still India. It just has far better export prospects.

I am not disputing that Jv part, but this 100% indigenised NG version info came from Dr Rane himself, so multiple angle can happen. Rus can just take their share of profit & be happy, we can make everything on our own in case of NG. Issue was we having to buy major parts from them & still pay 50% of profit. That would curtail somewhat hopefully.
In theory, if you replace much of the airframe with composite material, you get good weight reduction, right? We also now make good solid rocket motor. So many parts of the project are in our hands already. Seekers, booster, guidance, we must have got some expertise by now.

 

[Bali78]

Seekers, booster, guidance, we must have got some expertise by now.

Isn’t it strange we still faced issues with Nirbhay in these areas ?

 

[randomradio]

I am not disputing that Jv part, but this 100% indigenised NG version info came from Dr Rane himself, so multiple angle can happen. Rus can just take their share of profit & be happy, we can make everything on our own in case of NG. Issue was we having to buy major parts from them & still pay 50% of profit. That would curtail somewhat hopefully.
In theory, if you replace much of the airframe with composite material, you get good weight reduction, right? We also now make good solid rocket motor. So many parts of the project are in our hands already. Seekers, booster, guidance, we must have got some expertise by now.

I guess he is referring to local production.

 

[randomradio]

Isn’t it strange we still faced issues with Nirbhay in these areas ?

Different labs, different tech.

 

[marich01]

Further to the above post, found that old pdf I was actually searching for, the initial Brahmos ramjet work related, quite old but very accurate & from the DRDL team. You can read through and see why certain parameter were chosen for satisfactory performance. If we try to increase speed to such 4.5mach level almost certainly the design will have to be modified again to satisfy the boundary conditions ie our own ramjet engine will need to be created. Our STAR itself will also have the same mach 3 speed per reports.
SFDR based system can probably reach mach 4.5 range , even touch 5 depending on high energy propellant used. Tradeoff will probably affect the maneuverability of the missile, you have a high maneuver capable Brahmos, but a much higher speed based one will lose energy trying to follow similar flight guidance and pull such maneuver, thereby lose some range. Another negative being high G load due to g force caused by such high speed which may need strong airframe and make it heavier.

So, further diving into the matter, found an old paper among desidoc journals , which discussed about the effect of fuel properties on specific thrust of ramjet engines. Like I was insinuating before, it also indicated the following part
Analysis of the ideal ramjet cycle1 reveals the
following: (i) I sp of an ideal ramjet has a local
maximum at the conventional supersonic flight range,
typically between Mach number 2.2 and Mach
number 3.5, (ii) for any operating conditions, the
lower the fuel/air ratio, f = mf /ma, the higher is the
specific impulse of the ideal ramjet.

Now this is for a liquid fuel hydrocarbon based ramjet, like something that uses kerosene as the main fuel. So Brahmos in its current config, if continue to use kerosene as fuel then it can only improve speed upto max envelope of 3.5 mach, which is exactly what I also read/heard in past discussions, that the NG version can have speed 3.5mach range. We can understand the Russsian have abundant of kerosene/hydrocarbon available to them so they used that as the most logical option, cheap & effective. To go to higher mach numbers, we will need much better propellant, solid metal powder based ones that have much higher burn rates.

Later I also came across this paper by 2 IIT Madrs academic scholars, which discussed that although all the research in hypersonic regime so far have been based on scramjet related, it is possible to modify a ramjet into a mach 6 capable hypersonic flight. by using AL based fuel rich propellant. Aluminium, Boron & specially hydrogen based propellants now have high potential compared to conventional ramjet fuel like kerosene which got 2500K flame temp so can not produce enough thrust to sustain mach 6 flight against the drag generated.

Attached both doc below

 

[marich01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1644722241270317056

 

[_Anonymous_]

Supersonic punch, hypersonic killer boost India’s cruise missile capability

Exhaustive article on the status of Brahmos & other missiles planned / existing in our inventory with a bit of history & what to expect for the future.

Just 1 glaring part which proved jarring . Apparently India & Russia hopes to mfg 5000 nos of various variants of the Brahmos about half of them for export by the middle of this decade i e 2025 . How exactly will we do this , I'm not sure .

Hell I'm not even sure we'd be able to mfg 5000 nos in toto by the end of the decade & if we do whether 2500 nos would actually be exported given it's prohibitive costs . Moreover I'm sure we'd need more than 2500 nos given our looming conflict with China .

 

[marich01]

From yesterdays presentation, that middle pic was also in the brochure. 2 different hypersonic versions? Yes the 2nd one is Zircon & dependent on Rus ToT, but still a bit interesting?
Rane sir mentioned NG related work mostly done now, I guess academic part. DRDL also posted a ramjet facility related job post recently. Who knows might be related.
In The video Dr Rane did say they will look to a mach 4-5 Brahmos as prelude to hypersonics.

 

[marich01]

India speeding up development of Hypersonic BrahMos with Mach 5-7​

Recently, a deal has been signed for BrahMos missiles and Next Generation Brahmos Maritime Mobile Coastal Batteries Long Range (NGMMCB LR) and Brahmos missiles.
BrahMos Aerospace (BAPL), a joint venture between India and Russia is speeding up its efforts to develop technology for hypersonic version of the BrahMos missile.
Sources in the defence and security establishment told Financial Express Online that the company has tied up with various institutes in India and Moscow to work on the hypersonic version of the missile which can travel at five to seven times the speed of sound. Next to the present variants of Mach 2.8 to Mach 3.5, the hypersonic version will be BrahMos II.
The company has a tie up with the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore where a team of 20 scientists are working on developing technologies that will be used for high temperature material to be used for building the missile, energy modules, cram-jet propulsions and required algorithms. And for this purpose a separate centre has been created in IISc, and the Moscow Institute of Aviation will focus on producing technologies for propulsion, kinetic energy modules which will be used in the hypersonic version of the missile.
Atul Dinkar Rane, CEO and MD, BrahMos Aerospace had told Financial Express Online earlier that the focus of the company is on the new BrahMos Next-Generation missile. This missile weighs almost half as much as the regular BrahMos missile which is already operational in India and the most lethal supersonic cruise missile.
The design work on the NG is going on and the design assessment will be done in Moscow soon. Following which there will be qualifying trials of the new version of the BrahMos Missile by 2024.
The company is aiming for 1,330 kgs of weight and performance in terms of range to be around 300 kms at a speed of Mach 3.5 and launchable from any aircraft.
The BrahMos NG will have a indigenous seeker with AESA radar and it will have a lesser radar cross section in comparison to the previous version.
By 2025, it is likely to be provided to the Indian Air Force, and as reported earlier the BrahMos NG could be fitted on the fighter fleets of SU-30 MKI and the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft `Tejas’.
When will the hypersonic variant be ready?
There is still work going on and it will take some time before it is ready. However, it is going to be very expensive and not many orders are expected from the Indian Armed Forces due to its high costs.
Indian Navy places order BrahMos NG
Recently, a deal has been signed for BrahMos missiles and Next Generation Brahmos Maritime Mobile Coastal Batteries Long Range (NGMMCB LR) and Brahmos missiles. The deal has been finalised for the Indian Navy at a cost of over Rs 1700 Crore.

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-india-speeding-up-development-of-hypersonic-brahmos-with-mach-5-7-3071445/

 

[Fatalis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653991513645543431

 

[marich01]

My interpretation of the presentation was

NG is ready theoretically, like R2 R3 throughout supersonic systems it is also 100% indigenous development & most likely to have a proprietary Indian ramjet. Dr Rane said at that point I do not want to leave the brand name Brahmos which suggest that. Weight down to 1330kg is probably an effort to fit it on Tejas mk1a. NG maybe mainly aimed as air launched weapon system, than multi platform ship/land initially. (just my guess)

This intermediate hypersonic version is the same planned upgrade on existing 3 ton version as a precursor to real hypersonic, and again will be wholly DRDO work. For this we need to have indigenous high temperature materials and develop the continuous comm link needed which is very hard. Cost will be a bit high because nobody makes such material in huge quantity and also need to address accuracy of the system.

Actual high end hypersonic aka Zircon will be the export version given by Rus & DRDO will use previous knowledge of their share of work from the intermediate stage above, that are INS, On board computer, platform integration, FCS & testing. Zircon is mach 10.7 , so logical for the export version
to be mach 6-7 capable. Again for this we will have to buy the agreed parts from Russia. In the process we will learn to develop good additive mfg, ultra high temp materials, simulation & guidance of that scramjet from tip to toe.

HSTDV will create our own future missile programs & at that time our industry should be in better shape to deliver everything. Theory dev wise we have done leading work in hypersonics, but there are some barriers in putting that theory into practical product.

 

[Ashwin]

Interesting

 

[marich01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1656583169163001857