British/Italian Tempest (GCAP) Fighter : News and Discussion

Lolwa said:
Yeah but in terms of stealth Northrop Grumman continues to be the leading authority. Since they win the b-21 competition and not LMT
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Often past experience counts. They made the B-2, so they were the obvious choice. I don't know who is best, the B-21 will be stealthier than any other plane, but it is also newer. NGAD will be stealthier still. With radar improvements in between the PAK-FA/J-20 will end up no stealthier than 4th gen is now.
 
BMD said:
Often past experience counts. They made the B-2, so they were the obvious choice. I don't know who is best, the B-21 will be stealthier than any other plane, but it is also newer. NGAD will be stealthier still. With radar improvements in between the PAK-FA/J-20 will end up no stealthier than 4th gen is now.
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Pak-fa and j-20 are around 0.05-0.1 in RCS. They will still be in ranges to engage unless Americans make huge leaps in radar tech.
 
Lolwa said:
Pak-fa and j-20 are around 0.05-0.1 in RCS. They will still be in ranges to engage unless Americans make huge leaps in radar tech.
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That's not particularly stealthy today and with GaN AESA in the years to come, it will basically be as visible as 4th gen. And seeing the PAK-FA's IRSTs, and other bubble features, I doubt that is even true. More like 0.5-1sqm.
 
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BMD said:
That's not particularly stealthy today and with GaN AESA in the years to come, it will basically be as visible as 4th gen. And seeing the PAK-FA's IRSTs, and other bubble features, I doubt that is even true. More like 0.5-1sqm.
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Nah it's at worst 0.5 at best it's 0.01 sqm. 4++ jets will be detected atleast 10km before the su-57 and j-20's.
 
Lolwa said:
Nah it's at worst 0.5 at best it's 0.01 sqm. 4++ jets will be detected atleast 10km before the su-57 and j-20's.
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It's not even close to 0.01. 0.1 at the very best. Even the IRST has a bigger RCS than 0.01, not to mention the 1980s panel gaps. 0.5 is 4th gen now.
 
randomradio said:
0.1 to 1m2 is where the F-35 and F-22 are at today.

Su-57 and J-20 are pretty much the same.
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No way F-22/35 and Su-57 are in the same league in terms of RCS. The Russians weren't even aiming to develop a plane with similar stealth characteristics. The Su-57 design does take RCS reduction into consideration, just to make itself a less conspicuous target in a cluttered environment (compared to old Flankers - thanks mostly to internal weapons & trapezoidal wingform) but other than that its not really meant to be a VLO aircraft that follows the F-22/35 philosophy.

I'd think the Russians' preferred platform for penetrating protected airspace going forward would probably be the Okhotnik.

The J-20 at least tries to follow the F-22/35 philosophy...though they made some bad design choices from a LO/VLO perspective i.e. canards & ventral fins.

So while they may have come up with paint (RAM?) that shines like the American counterpart, it's anyone's guess if there is actual R&D going into the design of the airframe itself or just replicating existing designs in the hope of replicating the results.
 
Parthu said:
No way F-22/35 and Su-57 are in the same league in terms of RCS. The Russians weren't even aiming to develop a plane with similar stealth characteristics. The Su-57 design does take RCS reduction into consideration, just to make itself a less conspicuous target in a cluttered environment (compared to old Flankers - thanks mostly to internal weapons & trapezoidal wingform) but other than that its not really meant to be a VLO aircraft that follows the F-22/35 philosophy.

I'd think the Russians' preferred platform for penetrating protected airspace going forward would probably be the Okhotnik.

The J-20 at least tries to follow the F-22/35 philosophy...though they made some bad design choices from a LO/VLO perspective i.e. canards & ventral fins.

So while they may have come up with paint (RAM?) that shines like the American counterpart, it's anyone's guess if there is actual R&D going into the design of the airframe itself or just replicating existing designs in the hope of replicating the results.
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The Su-57 is not as stealthy as the F-22 or the F-35, but the difference is tactically irrelevant. At best the difference is just a few times, like the difference between the F-16A and F-16C, at worst it's just 15-20 times, like the difference between F-15 and F-16.

When they say the Russians chose other parameters over stealth, what it means is the Russians could have made the jet even more stealthy, but they decided not to.

As per the Canadians, the RCS of the F-35 is 95% smaller than a tactical fighter. So, if we assume they were talking about 1m2 or 3m2, it can't be lower than that, it could actually be higher since the F/A-18C/D has a 3m2 frontal RCS, we get 0.05m2 or 0.15m2. The F-22 is said to be 0.3m2 and the Su-57 is 0.5m2. And these numbers are definitely not frontal RCS, the Canadians were very likely to have been speaking about average RCS, given the numbers we get. The Russians have also claimed the same, ie, all three jets are of the 0.1 and 1m2 RCS class. Flankers and Eagles are of the 20m2 class.

So the Su-57 is either 1.5 times bigger than the F-22 or 3 to 10 times bigger than the F-35, average RCS. None of the numbers being tactically relevant.

So when they say the F-22 looks like a marble, they are only talking about one aspect, but from other angles, including bad aspects for RCS, the average value would increase.

Plus the design, including stealth, was acceptable to the IAF.
 
randomradio said:
The Su-57 is not as stealthy as the F-22 or the F-35, but the difference is tactically irrelevant. At best the difference is just a few times, like the difference between the F-16A and F-16C, at worst it's just 15-20 times, like the difference between F-15 and F-16.

When they say the Russians chose other parameters over stealth, what it means is the Russians could have made the jet even more stealthy, but they decided not to.

As per the Canadians, the RCS of the F-35 is 95% smaller than a tactical fighter. So, if we assume they were talking about 1m2 or 3m2, it can't be lower than that, it could actually be higher since the F/A-18C/D has a 3m2 frontal RCS, we get 0.05m2 or 0.15m2. The F-22 is said to be 0.3m2 and the Su-57 is 0.5m2. And these numbers are definitely not frontal RCS, the Canadians were very likely to have been speaking about average RCS, given the numbers we get. The Russians have also claimed the same, ie, all three jets are of the 0.1 and 1m2 RCS class. Flankers and Eagles are of the 20m2 class.

So the Su-57 is either 1.5 times bigger than the F-22 or 3 to 10 times bigger than the F-35, average RCS. None of the numbers being tactically relevant.

So when they say the F-22 looks like a marble, they are only talking about one aspect, but from other angles, including bad aspects for RCS, the average value would increase.

Plus the design, including stealth, was acceptable to the IAF.
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The Russian stated figures of RCS (assuming they're not from third parties with vested interests) are sketchy at best. The frontal cross section is very much Flanker-like, with the two hanging nacelles destroying stealth to a large degree not just from the front but also from the sides. They are angled ok but the rounded edges don't seem treated wrt creeping waves - I just don't see how it could even be anywhere near F35 levels of radar deflection, let alone the F22.

Su-57.jpg


The exposed IRST mount is a sore thumb & offsets pretty much all the benefit gained by shaping the nose & wings.

From the rear, they barely even make an attempt to implement LO features.

The small tail fins are a nice touch though.
 
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Parthu said:
The Russian stated figures of RCS (assuming they're not from third parties with vested interests) are sketchy at best. The frontal cross section is very much Flanker-like, with the two hanging nacelles destroying stealth to a large degree not just from the front but also from the sides. They are angled ok but the rounded edges don't seem treated wrt creeping waves - I just don't see how it could even be anywhere near F35 levels of radar deflection, let alone the F22.

Su-57.jpg


The exposed IRST mount is a sore thumb & offsets pretty much all the benefit gained by shaping the nose & wings.

From the rear, they barely even make an attempt to implement LO features.

The small tail fins are a nice touch though.
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The Russian numbers are official, like patent papers from Pogosyan. It was an Indian official who first gave it away. You were like 12 or 13 then. :p

We can't eyeball stealth. There's no way to tell how waves interact with complex objects without an anechoic chamber. In any case designing for these levels of stealth is not complex. Pretty much everybody is currently at this level.

The exposed IRST is not exposed, the dome is radar transparent, and once in, the signals are absorbed and destroyed. Everything else has been designed with stealth in mind.

As for the rear, we are yet to see the definitive engine. They are yet to show off the main serial production version of the aircraft.
 
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www.yomiuri.co.jp

空自の次期戦闘機、イギリスと共通機体で開発…輸出視野に防衛装備移転３原則の改定検討

【読売新聞】　日英両政府は航空自衛隊と英空軍の次期戦闘機について、双方の開発計画を統合し、共通機体を共同開発する方向で最終調整に入った。次期戦闘機に求める性能がほぼ一致していることに加え、開発費の抑制が図れると判断した。日本政府は完
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JASDF's next fighter will be developed as a common aircraft with the UK.
2022/08/14 05:00
The Japanese and British governments made final adjustments in the direction of unifying the development plans of the two sides and jointly developing a common aircraft for the JASDF and the RAF's next fighter. In addition to nearly matching the performance required for the next fighter, it was determined that development costs could be reduced.

This was announced by several government officials. The costs related to development will be included in the defence budget request for fiscal 2023, and the overall picture of the development will be determined within this year.

Britain planned to deploy the Tempest, the successor to its main fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon, in combat by 2035 and develop it jointly with Italy and Sweden.

In subsequent discussions between the Japanese and British governments, it was agreed that it would be appropriate to standardize the aircraft because the required performance was almost the same and the development period overlapped. It is also expected to reduce development costs, which are said to significantly exceed 1 trillion yen, and improve production efficiency.

Italy is also participating in the joint development. Lockheed Martin's involvement is expected to be limited to ensuring interoperability with U.S. military aircraft.
 
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