Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

[R!cK]

Only if you have no idea about modern air combat.
PAF in 1999 had no BVR and guided strike capability and was completely inferior to IAF in air combat capability.

Today they have both, added SEAD and stand off strike weapons, are guided by AWACS and can extend range and endurance of operations through IFR.

For the future they already are procureing modern drones and are planing with stealth fighters as the high end, to their cost-effective JF17 base.

That puts them on par with IAFs capabilities today, in some areas even ahead and if we don't get Su 57, it's even likely that we wI'll lose in the 5th gen race to them too, not only to China.

But yes, that's irrelevant to us.

I don't like it when people undermine them, because they have done reasonably well for the resources they have. But sorry, here you are exaggerating things a bit. On which tactical scenario do you see PAF carrying out deep strikes inside India with IFR using their current fleet? I don't think their IFRs have much utility against India due to their existing fleet composition. They are primarily a defensive force now, and that is where their strength is. Extended range and endurance for JF-17 using IFR comes into advantage only if they are able to penetrate the air space, which is difficult now and impossible soon.

Modern drones that will be extremely helpful in uncontested airspace, read 'within own borders and not beyond'.

They are also planning to order Su-35, J-31 and S400, but those are just plans for now. We don't need to debate on hypothetical situations. I'm totally in agreement with your statement that JF-17 has been the best thing there is for PAF, they managed to maintain their numbers at a decent cost and improved their air defense capability. And right now, as a project it is more successful than Tejas is, simple truth. But lets not blow it out of proportion and join the PDF propaganda club.

Good Day!

 

[vstol Jockey]

We laugh at this aircraft but the truth is by the time we have LCA in large numbers, this aircraft will have been upgraded 2-3 times and also with better and more powerful engines making it superior to LCA.

 

[randomradio]

I don't like it when people undermine them, because they have done reasonably well for the resources they have. But sorry, here you are exaggerating things a bit. On which tactical scenario do you see PAF carrying out deep strikes inside India with IFR using their current fleet? I don't think their IFRs have much utility against India due to their existing fleet composition. They are primarily a defensive force now, and that is where their strength is. Extended range and endurance for JF-17 using IFR comes into advantage only if they are able to penetrate the air space, which is difficult now and impossible soon.

Modern drones that will be extremely helpful in uncontested airspace, read 'within own borders and not beyond'.

They are also planning to order Su-35, J-31 and S400, but those are just plans for now. We don't need to debate on hypothetical situations. I'm totally in agreement with your statement that JF-17 has been the best thing there is for PAF, they managed to maintain their numbers at a decent cost and improved their air defense capability. And right now, as a project it is more successful than Tejas is, simple truth. But lets not blow it out of proportion and join the PDF propaganda club.

Good Day!

Su-35 and S-400 are not options for them. They won't get those. And J-31 is still quite some time away. What they really need are three to four squadrons of the Typhoon with AESA and Meteor.

 

[randomradio]

We laugh at this aircraft but the truth is by the time we have LCA in large numbers, this aircraft will have been upgraded 2-3 times and also with better and more powerful engines making it superior to LCA.

Considering ADA's speed versus Chinese efficiency, definitely.

 

[Guynextdoor]

We laugh at this aircraft but the truth is by the time we have LCA in large numbers, this aircraft will have been upgraded 2-3 times and also with better and more powerful engines making it superior to LCA.

all published documentation doesn't seem to indicate anything earth shaking for JF17. Plus it's true capabilities seem to be unclear because of a lot of fibbing done in their specs in their marketing literature.

 

[vstol Jockey]

all published documentation doesn't seem to indicate anything earth shaking for JF17. Plus it's true capabilities seem to be unclear because of a lot of fibbing done in their specs in their marketing literature.

IMHO, this aircraft is fit for the role it has been created. PAF does not need to fly more than 300NM to hit Delhi with dumb bombs. This aircraft can deliver at that range and a bigger load than LCA Mk1A.

 

[Guynextdoor]

IMHO, this aircraft is fit for the role it has been created. PAF does not need to fly more than 300NM to hit Delhi with dumb bombs. This aircraft can deliver at that range and a bigger load than LCA Mk1A.

I fully agree with you. So long as this is the defined role for JF 17 I can uderstand....but this is surely no MMRCA class jet- that's what the pak establishment is claiming.

 

[Himanshu]

Yes, it's part of the Block III upgrade.
It's air cooled and has a range of 170Km against a 3m2 target.

Share source, so far as i know its 170 km against 5m2 target. Plz no pak source, i only follow Chinese ones.

 

[randomradio]

Share source, so far as i know its 170 km against 5m2 target. Plz no pak source, i only follow Chinese ones.

I'm giving the benefit of doubt in favour of 3m2. 5m2 will only be a little over 20Km more. Otherwise it will be 150Km for 3m2.

150Km for 3m2 is too less when we are entering the 2020s. It equals Bars Mk1, which makes it a pretty pointless upgrade. At least with 170Km, it will be between Bars Mk1 and Mk2.

 

[Himanshu]

I'm giving the benefit of doubt in favour of 3m2. 5m2 will only be a little over 20Km more. Otherwise it will be 150Km for 3m2.

150Km for 3m2 is too less when we are entering the 2020s. It equals Bars Mk1, which makes it a pretty pointless upgrade. At least with 170Km, it will be between Bars Mk1 and Mk2.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1059656119914651649

Well i guess you're right, above video shared by @Sancho. KLJ-7 range is 80 km for 3m2 target and 170 km for KLJ-7A? with 160-200% improvement in detection range.

 

[Sancho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1059656119914651649

https://twitter.com/x/status/1059657005411950597

https://twitter.com/x/status/1059650525430394880

More radar infos, but not really sure if they also are JF17 related

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060809811510448130

 

[Sancho]

But sorry, here you are exaggerating things a bit. On which tactical scenario do you see PAF carrying out deep strikes inside India with IFR using their current fleet

First of all, I specifically wrote range "and endurance", so the first priority for their IFR capability (just as in IAF), is extending endurance of CAP missions.
Secondly, they added long range A2G weapons, but doesn't have a long range fighter platform to properly support such a mission. Therfore taking off with weapons and getting refuelled in air it after take off, is a new capability they have, to extend the range of their strike missions, although the bigger threat are, attacks from their own airspace with stand off PGMs or missiles. They don't have to enter Indian airspace anymore to attack us, like it would be the case with F16s.

Modern drones that will be extremely helpful in uncontested airspace, read 'within own borders and not beyond'

Same case as above, they can do surveillance and cross border attacks with armed drones, without the need to enter Indian airspace. It's basically the artillery of the airforce now and why we are used to cross border artillery skirmishes, crossborder drone attacks, add a whole new level to the Indo/Pak scenario.

They are also planning to order Su-35, J-31 and S400, but those are just plans for now.

They won't get Russian high end stuff, but that's not important anyway, unless they want to fix a political deal with Russia. The bigger threat to India, are their plans and options to join China or Turkey on a 5th gen fighter project. They don't need many of them, to have unprecedented offensive capabilities against India. And when it comes to succeeding in such a development, I see China and even Turkey in clear advantage over DRDO.

 

[Sancho]

all published documentation doesn't seem to indicate anything earth shaking for JF17. Plus it's true capabilities seem to be unclear because of a lot of fibbing done in their specs in their marketing literature.

Mig 21 + Su 30 was a deadly combination, because of modern tactics, not because the Mig was advanced itself.
The same applies to JF 17 + AWACS capability. They can't counter MKI in a 1 on 1, but in combination with AWACS support. And if they can add a stealth fighter too, they can combine JF 17 as a weapon launch platform, to a superior foward sensor platform (see USN with F35/F18, or RAF with F35/EF).
We don't have the old days of pure dogfighting anymore, because weapon and system techs have evolved so much, that the fighter performance, becomes a secondary issue. The same JF 17 in Myanmar or Nigeria will not be as effective, because they don't have force multipliers, or a different geography.

 

[Sancho]

Well i guess you're right, above video shared by @Sancho. KLJ-7 range is 80 km for 3m2 target and 170 km for KLJ-7A? with 160-200% improvement in detection range.

The video doesn't say against what target size and it's a promotional video at this point. We don't know if the shown radar will be JF 17 B3s radar, nor if the 60x60 size is for JF17 or for J10.

 

[Himanshu]

More radar infos, but not really sure if they also are JF17 related

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060809811510448130

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060833050001637376

The video doesn't say against what target size and it's a promotional video at this point. We don't know if the shown radar will be JF 17 B3s radar, nor if the 60x60 size is for JF17 or for J10.

Well the radar looks the replacement for medium-light aircrafts. Presently JF-17 have detection range of 75-80 km against 3m2 target confirmed by pak website & chinese sources. LKF601E seems the competitor to KLJ-7A, some are saying its to upgrade older blocks, detection ranges of both seems same to me i.e., 170 km for 3m2 target.

The bigger threat to India, are their plans and options to join China or Turkey on a 5th gen fighter project. They don't need many of them, to have unprecedented offensive capabilities against India. And when it comes to succeeding in such a development, I see China and even Turkey in clear advantage over DRDO.

China won't sell FC-31 when its progressing well, CAC sold FC-1 b'cuz there were no domestic orders, FC-31 will get orders from PLAN as J-35. Nor Turkey would be interested. As far i can guess they are working project AZM with the Chinese. Here's the interesting pic

 

[Sancho]

Well the radar looks the replacement for medium-light aircrafts. Presently JF-17 have detection range of 75-80 km against 3m2 target confirmed by pak website & chinese sources. LKF601E seems the competitor to KLJ-7A, some are saying its to upgrade older blocks, detection ranges of both seems same to me i.e., 170 km for 3m2 target

As you can see in the pictures, there are 3 different radars.

- fixed plate (which also was shown in the video)
- fixed plate with side arrays (my guess for J20)
- fixed placed on a swashplate copy (similar to Gripen E and EF).

So they have plenty designs, for different sizes and nose diameters and we have to wait for the final versions to see what performance from which version (Eltas specs for EL2052 won't apply to Tejas or Jaguar IM either).
Also the current radar is not rated against 3m2 targets, but the usual 5m2 for pulse doppler radars.

China won't sell FC-31 when its progressing well, CAC sold FC-1 b'cuz there were no domestic orders,

J31 is already slated as an export fighter and so far there is no confirmation on it being developed as a carrier fighter. A naval J20 would actually make more sense, since they already have the engines navalised and operating heavy class fighters from their carriers. The canard design also helps for low speed handling during landing, similar to J15 and so on.

Nor Turkey would be interested

That's an assumption, but the relation between both countries are growing every year, F16 upgrades, T129 and naval vessel procurements. Exporting the fighter to Muslim countries, is obviously the first priority for Turkey as well, not to mention that Pakistans aviation industry has evolved to a point, where it can contribute as well, unlike Middle Eastern countries.
Either way, they have 2 good options, while we are left with ADA.

 

[Himanshu]

J31 is already slated as an export fighter and so far there is no confirmation on it being developed as a carrier fighter. A naval J20 would actually make more sense, since they already have the engines navalised and operating heavy class fighters from their carriers. The canard design also helps for low speed handling during landing, similar to J15 and so on.

I was saying that regarding pak, China is now aiming for Turkey for FC-31 export if F-35 deal falls. Its now CAC J-17/J-15 vs SAC J-35/FC-31 for carrier operations, J-20 is nowhere to be seen.

FC-31 (finally) chosen by the Chinese Navy?

That's an assumption, but the relation between both countries are growing every year, F16 upgrades, T129 and naval vessel procurements. Exporting the fighter to Muslim countries, is obviously the first priority for Turkey as well, not to mention that Pakistans aviation industry has evolved to a point, where it can contribute as well, unlike Middle Eastern countries.

I don't think your assumptions are better than mine.

Also the current radar is not rated against 3m2 targets, but the usual 5m2 for pulse doppler radars.

KLJ-7 radar which has a detection range of 75 km for 3m2 size aircraft (Chinese claim) and JF-17 official website claims it has a 105 km for 5m2.

Well i will wait for more info until then 3m2 seems more logical.

 

[Sancho]

I don't think your assumptions are better than mine.

That depends what the Base of yours is. You only stated they won't be a partner, not why.

Well i will wait for more info until then 3m2 seems more logical.

That's what I said, so far we don't have any confirmation on Block 3s radar and I have some doubts on the range, especially when you compare it to Zhuk AE, or other MMRCA radars.

 

[randomradio]

As you can see in the pictures, there are 3 different radars.

- fixed plate (which also was shown in the video)
- fixed plate with side arrays (my guess for J20)
- fixed placed on a swashplate copy (similar to Gripen E and EF).

All three are for the JF-17.

 

[randomradio]

150+Km against 5m2 target.

So...