Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

_Anonymous_ said:
Won't be surprised if MBS turns to the Chinese or an perhaps an outsider's chance for SAAB just to spite the US and Europe.
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Chinese weapons ? If done that means no more US top weaponery. It's a red line MBS will never cross.
SAAB? Saudi Arabia is a big country not in a foreseable peace as Brazil and its air force is accustomed to twin engine medium to heavy fighters so no way for the smaller Gripen even in E/F variant.
 
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Bon Plan said:
Chinese weapons ? If done that means no more US top weaponery. It's a red line MBS will never cross.
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The line was already crossed by the previous king:
2017:
www.scmp.com

Chinese drone factory in Saudi Arabia first in Middle East

Chinese drone factory in Saudi Arabia first in Middle East
www.scmp.com www.scmp.com

Now indeed, MBS does not intend to cross the line back; he'll keep on buying Sino-Saudi weapons.
www.defensenews.com

Chinese and Saudi firms create joint venture to make military drones in the kingdom

Advanced Communications and Electronics Systems Co. signed an agreement with China Electronics Technology Group Corp., with the two companies announcing their tie-up during the World Defense Show in Riyadh.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
 
Amarante said:
On the #Rafale F5 programme:
- stealth
- drone piloting
- hypersonic missiles
- even more connectivity
This will clearly keep the aircraft at the cutting edge of technology and operational efficiency.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1600929482470105088
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IIRC, F4 was announced in 2017 and is a 7-year program, so 2024. Will F5 also be a 7-year program then?

Would explain why the IAF is willing to wait, 'cause MRFA will take us into F5 territory, 2030.

Need GaN this and GaN that in the post 2030 era.

@Picdelamirand-oil
 
randomradio said:
IIRC, F4 was announced in 2017 and is a 7-year program, so 2024. Will F5 also be a 7-year program then?

Would explain why the IAF is willing to wait, 'cause MRFA will take us into F5 territory, 2030.

Need GaN this and GaN that in the post 2030 era.

@Picdelamirand-oil
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Dassault lance le standard F4 du Rafale !​

Dassault launches the F4 standard for the Rafale!

14/01/2019

After the delivery of the new Rafale F3-R, the future "F4" standard is officially launched. This is long-awaited news, and it also concerns us in Switzerland, because if we were to choose this model, it would be ours. But that's another story.

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, has received the development contract for the "F4" standard of the Rafale fighter aircraft. The event took place today during a visit by Florence Parly, French Minister of the Army, to the Dassault Aviation plant in Mérignac.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

So we are launching the new standard at the same time as the old one is delivered, and it takes five years to develop and deliver it.

The delivery of Standard 4 is still planned for 2023 for F4.1 and 2024 for F4.2 and if we talk about F5 it is probably because there will be no F4.3 and therefore we should launch F5 in 2024 and deliver it in 2029.
 
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they think F4 will be finished in 2030 and F-5 2040. They say they are going to fly the Rafale for 90 years, till 2070. Why stop there? lets make it 100 years.
Obsolescence doesn't come into the 4th gen aircraft plan.

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Picdelamirand-oil said:

Dassault lance le standard F4 du Rafale !​

Dassault launches the F4 standard for the Rafale!

14/01/2019

After the delivery of the new Rafale F3-R, the future "F4" standard is officially launched. This is long-awaited news, and it also concerns us in Switzerland, because if we were to choose this model, it would be ours. But that's another story.

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, has received the development contract for the "F4" standard of the Rafale fighter aircraft. The event took place today during a visit by Florence Parly, French Minister of the Army, to the Dassault Aviation plant in Mérignac.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

So we are launching the new standard at the same time as the old one is delivered, and it takes five years to develop and deliver it.

The delivery of Standard 4 is still planned for 2023 for F4.1 and 2024 for F4.2 and if we talk about F5 it is probably because there will be no F4.3 and therefore we should launch F5 in 2024 and deliver it in 2029.
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Yeah. So I guess a 2023 tender with a 2026 result would mean supplies from 2030 or beyond.

Explains why the IAF is fine with a potential 8-year wait without new jets.
 
randomradio said:
Yeah. So I guess a 2023 tender with a 2026 result would mean supplies from 2030 or beyond.

Explains why the IAF is fine with a potential 8-year wait without new jets.
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Waiting is good, but we should have ordered 2 more squadrons of F3R itself. It would have allowed us better attrition threshold plus more aggressive stance against the Chinese. These F3R with Indian enhancements are good enough to whoop anything our neighbour(s) can through at us, especially upto 2030.

Beyond 2030 when say J-30 arrives, not 4th or 4.5 or 4.75 gen would be able to fight it in an one on one basis. French need FCAS to counter it. F5 or F6 won't cut it. Period.
 
Rajput Lion said:
Waiting is good, but we should have ordered 2 more squadrons of F3R itself. It would have allowed us better attrition threshold plus more aggressive stance against the Chinese. These F3R with Indian enhancements are good enough to whoop anything our neighbour(s) can through at us, especially upto 2030.
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That's what common sense says. We would be a lot more comfortable with 36 more.

Nevertheless, the IAF is willing to wait for 8 years rather than plan a second batch. So, either the IAF is making a mistake or they believe 2 squadrons are enough until MRFA delivers.

Rajput Lion said:
Beyond 2030 when say J-30 arrives, not 4th or 4.5 or 4.75 gen would be able to fight it in an one on one basis. French need FCAS to counter it. F5 or F6 won't cut it. Period.
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I don't believe 6th gen will be as much of an advancement as one believes. The Americans and Chinese are in a race to get one in service before the other, so they are both using existing, proven technologies. It's not gonna be as much of a jump as it was between 4th and 5th gen. I'd actually say 6G is basically a more mature 5G.

NGAD may stick out due to its specialist requirements. But if the Rafale is capable of matching the F-22 or F-35 in air combat, then it should carry over to 6th gen too. The real question is the quality of the drones the Rafale will come with.
 
randomradio said:
That's what common sense says. We would be a lot more comfortable with 36 more.

Nevertheless, the IAF is willing to wait for 8 years rather than plan a second batch. So, either the IAF is making a mistake or they believe 2 squadrons are enough until MRFA delivers.
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No 'if and but'! We should have gone for additional 2 squadrons looking at the eminent war that is looming over our nation.
randomradio said:
I don't believe 6th gen will be as much of an advancement as one believes. The Americans and Chinese are in a race to get one in service before the other, so they are both using existing, proven technologies. It's not gonna be as much of a jump as it was between 4th and 5th gen. I'd actually say 6G is basically a more mature 5G.

NGAD may stick out due to its specialist requirements. But if the Rafale is capable of matching the F-22 or F-35 in air combat, then it should carry over to 6th gen too. The real question is the quality of the drones the Rafale will come with.
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I disagree even though what you said is also correct. All 6th gen planes would have more endurance than 5th gen. They mostly should be tailless thus much more stealthy and aerodynamically clean. Also the omission of any tail should provide them with better kinematics and supercruise.

Only thing that's left is maneuverability and agility. If they can just match the maneuverability/agility of 4th/5th gen planes with above attributes then any evolved 4th gen, no matter how advance, is in serious trouble.

Evolved 5th gen like Su-57M or AMCA could fight 6th gen, just like evolved 4th gen like Rafale and MKI(post MLU)can against F-22 and F-35. But against 6th gen, task would be much more difficult, IMO.
 
Rajput Lion said:
No 'if and but'! We should have gone for additional 2 squadrons looking at the eminent war that is looming over our nation.
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Gotta put more faith in the IAF. If they are happy with just 36 for now, then it's good enough.

Rajput Lion said:
I disagree even though what you said is also correct. All 6th gen planes would have more endurance than 5th gen. They mostly should be tailless thus much more stealthy and aerodynamically clean. Also the omission of any tail should provide them with better kinematics and supercruise.

Only thing that's left is maneuverability and agility. If they can just match the maneuverability/agility of 4th/5th gen planes with above attributes then any evolved 4th gen, no matter how advance, is in serious trouble.

Evolved 5th gen like Su-57M or AMCA could fight 6th gen, just like evolved 4th gen like Rafale and MKI(post MLU)can against F-22 and F-35. But against 6th gen, task would be much more difficult, IMO.
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I doubt future jets will be as agile as 4th gen. Drones will have to be agile instead.

Manned fighters will act as controllers while drones do the fighting. So the difference between 4th and 6th gen jet will be the distance at which it can operate from the drones and the frontline. Which means sensors and connectivity will be more important than specific performance figures, which will be more important for drones.

In any case, even if the USAF and PLAAF get 6th gen by 2030, it will still take them 5+ years to get the jets to spec. The Russians are working on what they call 7th gen, which they expect to introduce by 2030, which could mature by 2035-40. So the Rafale will still be relevant into the 2040s.
 
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Sometimes I wish I had this kind of optimism in my life. I could really do with it.

As it is the RuAF have announced they're procuring only 12 Su-57 although news reports have issued varying figures depending on which report you read . The Item 30 is yet to be tested on the M or Mk-2 series.

However, if the RuAF wasn't too enthused with the Mk-1, it's hard to see how radically different will the model M be? In any case it's due to complete trials by 2026-27 give or take a yr .

And we already have guys here rooting for the PAK DA.

By 2030 that too.
I just noticed, it's still 2022.

Damn that rhymed!!
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Sometimes I wish I had this kind of optimism in my life. I could really do with it.

As it is the RuAF have announced they're procuring only 12 Su-57 although news reports have issued varying figures depending on which report you read . The Item 30 is yet to be tested on the M or Mk-2 series.

However, if the RuAF wasn't too enthused with the Mk-1, it's hard to see how radically different will the model M be? In any case it's due to complete trials by 2026-27 give or take a yr .

And we already have guys here rooting for the PAK DA.

By 2030 that too.
I just noticed, it's still 2022.

Damn that rhymed!!
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Random is correct. Both PAK DA and PAK DP are going through. PAK DA is the wing shaped stealth bomber developed by Tupolov. It's going to be unveiled soon.

PAK DP, about which Radom is talking is Mig-31 replacement known as Mig-41. It is designed to fly very high(almost space), very fast(mach 3+ supercruise) and with loads of internal fuel. In fact, this is going to be Russia's most dangerous fighter like Mig-31 is currently.

Apart from all the above, they have started work on 6th gen version of Su-57. All the above are "official" programmes and have nothing to do with "optimism".
 
Rajput Lion said:
Random is correct. Both PAK DA and PAK DP are going through. PAK DA is the wing shaped stealth bomber developed by Tupolov. It's going to be unveiled soon.

PAK DP, about which Radom is talking is Mig-31 replacement known as Mig-41. It is designed to fly very high(almost space), very fast(mach 3+ supercruise) and with loads of internal fuel. In fact, this is going to be Russia's most dangerous fighter like Mig-31 is currently.

Apart from all the above, they have started work on 6th gen version of Su-57. All the above are "official" programmes and have nothing to do with "optimism".
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Yes, PAKDA & PAKDP programs are going thru fine just like the T-14 Armata & Su-75 Checkmate. The only small issue here is of money.

Who's going to foot those bills & these problems are from before the war( including for the Su-57 where they're still chasing India for a " JV " ), after which their situation has been vastly exacerbated.

Let them deliver the Su-57 M which has already been delayed by years already before we discuss other programs of theirs or be wholly taken in by their propaganda or the insane optimism out here.
 
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