Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

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La France et les Emirats Arabes Unis discutent d'un financement commun du Rafale F5
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
France and the United Arab Emirates discuss joint financing of the Rafale F5

As part of the Rafale's evolution, France has launched discussions with the United Arab Emirates to involve them in the development and financing of the future F5 standard.

The French Ministry of Defence recently announced that it had launched the development of the Rafale F5. But what it did not reveal was that France and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) are currently discussing joint funding to develop the future F5 standard within the framework of the Rafale club, which is currently informal, according to corroborating sources. These are very detailed discussions with Abu Dhabi, which is a privileged and natural partner for France in view of the 80 Rafales it has purchased. In addition to the Emiratis' desire to participate in future upgrades of the aircraft, co-financing the Rafale F5 would be very convenient for the Ministry of Defence at a time when France's budget situation is complicated. However, the most critical parts of the Rafale will remain exclusively sovereign.

In addition, the UAE could order a further 20 Rafales. This sale is currently under discussion between the two countries and aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation. By the end of 2021, Abu Dhabi had ordered 80 Rafales from the aircraft manufacturer, armed with Mica NG air-to-air missiles and Black Shaheen cruise missiles. This is the biggest arms contract in France's history (worth more than €16 billion).

A new aircraft

The Rafale programme, managed by the French Defence Procurement Agency (DGA), is based on continuous development, enabling the aircraft to be adapted to changing requirements and threats by means of successive standards. Expected in the next decade, the Rafale F5, which is designed to enhance the operational capabilities of customer air forces, takes advances in connectivity and data processing power even further by offering enhanced capabilities for the aircraft.

A genuine mid-life refit, the F5 standard includes the development of a new radar, a new electronic warfare system, new optronic sensors and the integration of the ASN4G nuclear missile (for France only), as well as saturation weapons. It will benefit from enhanced integration with other systems, both on the ground and in the air, and can be supported by a stealth combat drone designed to facilitate operations to penetrate enemy defences. This drone will be based on experience gained with the Neuron demonstrator. This drone, which will accompany the Rafale F5, will offer a high level of stealth and will be equipped with new-generation sensors.

It will feature resilient connectivity and a wide range of payloads. It will be capable of in-flight refuelling, enabling it to operate over a wide range. The native integration of artificial intelligence in its mission system will enable Rafale crews to integrate the UAV into an agile collaborative combat strategy, the first building block in the SCAF (Future Air Combat System) programme.
 
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A photo of the first Egyptian Rafale from the second order

rafale-egypt-f3-1160x773.jpg
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
La France et les Emirats Arabes Unis discutent d'un financement commun du Rafale F5
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
France and the United Arab Emirates discuss joint financing of the Rafale F5

As part of the Rafale's evolution, France has launched discussions with the United Arab Emirates to involve them in the development and financing of the future F5 standard.

The French Ministry of Defence recently announced that it had launched the development of the Rafale F5. But what it did not reveal was that France and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) are currently discussing joint funding to develop the future F5 standard within the framework of the Rafale club, which is currently informal, according to corroborating sources. These are very detailed discussions with Abu Dhabi, which is a privileged and natural partner for France in view of the 80 Rafales it has purchased. In addition to the Emiratis' desire to participate in future upgrades of the aircraft, co-financing the Rafale F5 would be very convenient for the Ministry of Defence at a time when France's budget situation is complicated. However, the most critical parts of the Rafale will remain exclusively sovereign.

In addition, the UAE could order a further 20 Rafales. This sale is currently under discussion between the two countries and aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation. By the end of 2021, Abu Dhabi had ordered 80 Rafales from the aircraft manufacturer, armed with Mica NG air-to-air missiles and Black Shaheen cruise missiles. This is the biggest arms contract in France's history (worth more than €16 billion).

A new aircraft

The Rafale programme, managed by the French Defence Procurement Agency (DGA), is based on continuous development, enabling the aircraft to be adapted to changing requirements and threats by means of successive standards. Expected in the next decade, the Rafale F5, which is designed to enhance the operational capabilities of customer air forces, takes advances in connectivity and data processing power even further by offering enhanced capabilities for the aircraft.

A genuine mid-life refit, the F5 standard includes the development of a new radar, a new electronic warfare system, new optronic sensors and the integration of the ASN4G nuclear missile (for France only), as well as saturation weapons. It will benefit from enhanced integration with other systems, both on the ground and in the air, and can be supported by a stealth combat drone designed to facilitate operations to penetrate enemy defences. This drone will be based on experience gained with the Neuron demonstrator. This drone, which will accompany the Rafale F5, will offer a high level of stealth and will be equipped with new-generation sensors.

It will feature resilient connectivity and a wide range of payloads. It will be capable of in-flight refuelling, enabling it to operate over a wide range. The native integration of artificial intelligence in its mission system will enable Rafale crews to integrate the UAV into an agile collaborative combat strategy, the first building block in the SCAF (Future Air Combat System) programme.
Click to expand...

So all 80 + 20 will be F5 or only the last 20?
 
randomradio said:
So all 80 + 20 will be F5 or only the last 20?
Click to expand...
There are two different things: a contract for 80 Rafales and an agreement for a further 20 Rafales and joint funding for the development of the F5 standard.

It is likely that the 100 Rafales will be delivered as F4 ready to be upgraded to F5 and that they will all be retrofitted at reasonable cost to F5 from 2032/33. If, for example, the Radar's main antenna needs to be made of GaN so that it doesn't have to be replaced when upgrading to F5, then it will be made of GaN and it will work with F4. However, the side antennae will come with F5. This also means that the Radar receiver will be that of the RBE2 XG from the first deliveries to the UAE. The others multi-function antennas and definitive software will come with F5.
 
Le ministère des Armées finance le développement de l’AASF, un missile antiradar destiné au Rafale
The French Ministry of Defence is funding the development of the AASF, an anti-radar missile for the Rafale fighter aircraft
by Laurent Lagneau - 18 October 2024

Last week, the future combat drone [UCAV] intended to accompany the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard came under the spotlight, with the announcement by the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, that contracts for its development had been awarded to Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran.

This stealth combat drone will be equipped with new-generation sensors, ‘resilient’ connectivity and artificial intelligence algorithms. Capable of being refuelled in flight, it will have a ‘wide range of action’, according to the French Ministry of Defence. This means that its development will have to meet a number of technical challenges.

The Rafale F5 and this collaborative combat drone will have to operate the future ASN4G [Air Sol Nucléaire de 4e Génération] nuclear-capable missile. To do this, the pair will have the ability to suppress and destroy enemy air defences [SEAD - Suppression of Enemy Air Defences]. This capability was lost by the French Air Force [AAE] with the withdrawal of the AS-37 MARTEL [Matra Anti-Radar TELévision] anti-radar missile at the end of the 1990s.

With the proliferation of A2/AD systems and the introduction of increasingly sophisticated air defence systems, the question of equipping the AAE with a Rafale dedicated to electronic warfare to jam enemy radars has been raised by a number of Members of Parliament with the Ministry of Defence. But each time, the Ministry replied that it was not necessary to develop such an aircraft.

However, in a forward-looking document published in 2019, the AAE indicated that it wanted ‘to have weapons capable of neutralising enemy air defences as quickly as possible’, the aim being to guarantee its ability to ‘enter theatres of operations first’.

During the debates on the 2024-30 Military Planning Law [LPM], General Stéphane Mille, then Chief of Staff of the AAE, insisted on the recovery of this SEAD capability. ‘It is central to our future commitments: it will enable us to be much more at ease in increasingly contested environments, at a time when modern equipment will be diversifying around the world’, he explained.

He added: ‘To neutralise a ground-air defence system, there are means other than those of the Air Force's kinetic domain. We need to develop this SEAD capability to give the Army Chief of Staff several strings to his bow and create gaps in an enemy system’. And that means the Rafale F4 standard.

General Mille also mentioned the imminent arrival of the Future Cruise Missile [FMC], which, developed in cooperation with the UK, ‘will go very quickly and will be able to penetrate ground-air protection’ as well as ‘other, stealthier missiles’.

‘The SEAD capability is based on a range of weapons, an aircraft, a doctrine and, above all, several capabilities [...] which, when added together, will make it possible to create a breach in an enemy system’, summarised General Mille.

However, the development of an anti-radar missile was not explicitly mentioned in the LPM 2024-30. However, given that the LPM is relatively ‘vague’, such a munition is well and truly the subject of a programme, conducted in relative secrecy insofar as, for the moment, the French Defence Procurement Agency [DGA] has not, unless I'm mistaken, communicated on the subject. Nor has the AAE, for that matter.

The Annual Performance Project [PAP] appended to the 2025 Finance Bill refers to the Future Air-Surface Armament [AASF] programme, which has a budget of €41.90 million for the period 2024-2027. According to the description given, this is a PEM [major effect programme] that ‘meets the need for a capability to neutralise short- and medium-range surface-to-air threats, an essential prerequisite for the Rafale's first entry capability’.

‘The maturity phase should enable the choice of the option that meets the operational requirement to be made prior to the launch of production,’ adds the document, under the heading “Programme 146 - Forces Equipment”. ‘The order/delivery schedule for the AASF programme, as well as the industrial organisation, will be defined at the time of the production launch,’ it adds.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
There are two different things: a contract for 80 Rafales and an agreement for a further 20 Rafales and joint funding for the development of the F5 standard.

It is likely that the 100 Rafales will be delivered as F4 ready to be upgraded to F5 and that they will all be retrofitted at reasonable cost to F5 from 2032/33. If, for example, the Radar's main antenna needs to be made of GaN so that it doesn't have to be replaced when upgrading to F5, then it will be made of GaN and it will work with F4. However, the side antennae will come with F5. This also means that the Radar receiver will be that of the RBE2 XG from the first deliveries to the UAE. The others multi-function antennas and definitive software will come with F5.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense. All the wiring has to be changed to F5 standards right from the start if that's the case. And 2027 is too early for that. An F5 prototype is yet to fly, and UAE's orders have to be in production by now to meet the 2027 timeframe.

www.aerotime.aero

France's stealth combat drone to support Rafale F5 by 2033

France reveals plans for a stealth combat drone to support the Rafale F5 standard, operational by 2033. It will leverage the achievements of the nEUROn program.
www.aerotime.aero www.aerotime.aero
“When the F5 standard comes out, the plane will be very different,” General Stéphane Mille, then-French Air Force Chief of Staff, said in a parliamentary hearing. “The computing capacities to process hundreds of thousands of pieces of information require wiring that the Rafale as we know it today is not capable of supporting.”
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
Le ministère des Armées finance le développement de l’AASF, un missile antiradar destiné au Rafale
The French Ministry of Defence is funding the development of the AASF, an anti-radar missile for the Rafale fighter aircraft
by Laurent Lagneau - 18 October 2024

Last week, the future combat drone [UCAV] intended to accompany the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard came under the spotlight, with the announcement by the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, that contracts for its development had been awarded to Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran.

This stealth combat drone will be equipped with new-generation sensors, ‘resilient’ connectivity and artificial intelligence algorithms. Capable of being refuelled in flight, it will have a ‘wide range of action’, according to the French Ministry of Defence. This means that its development will have to meet a number of technical challenges.

The Rafale F5 and this collaborative combat drone will have to operate the future ASN4G [Air Sol Nucléaire de 4e Génération] nuclear-capable missile. To do this, the pair will have the ability to suppress and destroy enemy air defences [SEAD - Suppression of Enemy Air Defences]. This capability was lost by the French Air Force [AAE] with the withdrawal of the AS-37 MARTEL [Matra Anti-Radar TELévision] anti-radar missile at the end of the 1990s.

With the proliferation of A2/AD systems and the introduction of increasingly sophisticated air defence systems, the question of equipping the AAE with a Rafale dedicated to electronic warfare to jam enemy radars has been raised by a number of Members of Parliament with the Ministry of Defence. But each time, the Ministry replied that it was not necessary to develop such an aircraft.

However, in a forward-looking document published in 2019, the AAE indicated that it wanted ‘to have weapons capable of neutralising enemy air defences as quickly as possible’, the aim being to guarantee its ability to ‘enter theatres of operations first’.

During the debates on the 2024-30 Military Planning Law [LPM], General Stéphane Mille, then Chief of Staff of the AAE, insisted on the recovery of this SEAD capability. ‘It is central to our future commitments: it will enable us to be much more at ease in increasingly contested environments, at a time when modern equipment will be diversifying around the world’, he explained.

He added: ‘To neutralise a ground-air defence system, there are means other than those of the Air Force's kinetic domain. We need to develop this SEAD capability to give the Army Chief of Staff several strings to his bow and create gaps in an enemy system’. And that means the Rafale F4 standard.

General Mille also mentioned the imminent arrival of the Future Cruise Missile [FMC], which, developed in cooperation with the UK, ‘will go very quickly and will be able to penetrate ground-air protection’ as well as ‘other, stealthier missiles’.

‘The SEAD capability is based on a range of weapons, an aircraft, a doctrine and, above all, several capabilities [...] which, when added together, will make it possible to create a breach in an enemy system’, summarised General Mille.

However, the development of an anti-radar missile was not explicitly mentioned in the LPM 2024-30. However, given that the LPM is relatively ‘vague’, such a munition is well and truly the subject of a programme, conducted in relative secrecy insofar as, for the moment, the French Defence Procurement Agency [DGA] has not, unless I'm mistaken, communicated on the subject. Nor has the AAE, for that matter.

The Annual Performance Project [PAP] appended to the 2025 Finance Bill refers to the Future Air-Surface Armament [AASF] programme, which has a budget of €41.90 million for the period 2024-2027. According to the description given, this is a PEM [major effect programme] that ‘meets the need for a capability to neutralise short- and medium-range surface-to-air threats, an essential prerequisite for the Rafale's first entry capability’.

‘The maturity phase should enable the choice of the option that meets the operational requirement to be made prior to the launch of production,’ adds the document, under the heading “Programme 146 - Forces Equipment”. ‘The order/delivery schedule for the AASF programme, as well as the industrial organisation, will be defined at the time of the production launch,’ it adds.
Click to expand...

I guess Libya was an eyeopener for having the tactical advantage of a standoff SEAD weapon that can be launched with minimal planning.

Airborne radars connected to SAM sites are screwing up quite a bit of Rafale's low-flying advantages.
 
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randomradio said:
That doesn't make sense. All the wiring has to be changed to F5 standards right from the start if that's the case. And 2027 is too early for that. An F5 prototype is yet to fly, and UAE's orders have to be in production by now to meet the 2027 timeframe.

www.aerotime.aero

France's stealth combat drone to support Rafale F5 by 2033

France reveals plans for a stealth combat drone to support the Rafale F5 standard, operational by 2033. It will leverage the achievements of the nEUROn program.
www.aerotime.aero www.aerotime.aero
“When the F5 standard comes out, the plane will be very different,” General Stéphane Mille, then-French Air Force Chief of Staff, said in a parliamentary hearing. “The computing capacities to process hundreds of thousands of pieces of information require wiring that the Rafale as we know it today is not capable of supporting.”
Click to expand...
There are two possible hypotheses:
  • Either Stéphane Mille is a good general but a poor engineer and has understood nothing about Rafale technology
  • Or he is misinforming us
Because all Rafales are already wired with fibre optics to support the EMP during a nuclear mission.

As for taking precautionary measures to facilitate the transition to standard 5, these had already been taken for the transition to F4.2, which is the old name for standard 5, and they have been applied to all the Rafales that have been exported, except for the first ones that Egypt got as a matter of urgency and which were initially intended for France. The head of the French DGA said so, and he's not a good general, but he's a good engineer.
 
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randomradio said:
I guess Libya was an eyeopener for having the tactical advantage of a standoff SEAD weapon that can be launched with minimal planning.

Airborne radars connected to SAM sites are screwing up quite a bit of Rafale's low-flying advantages.
Click to expand...
The AASF is not a classic American-style anti radar weapon, it's a smart glider! :ROFLMAO:

zrfj.jpg


The equivalent of a Harm, if we make one, will be derived from the FMAN/FMC programme, but if we do, it will certainly be for the British.
 
randomradio said:
I guess Libya was an eyeopener for having the tactical advantage of a standoff SEAD weapon that can be launched with minimal planning.

Airborne radars connected to SAM sites are screwing up quite a bit of Rafale's low-flying advantages.
Click to expand...
Remember our discussion in the other thread where I said that because of SEAD weapons(or lack of it), MKI UPG. with NGARM will become superior SEAD/DEAD platform than Rafale. I also said that because of modern IADS the low/fast penetration of Rafale with a subesquent pop-up for a Hammer strike to achieve DEAD may not be viable in the future.

Looks like the French are also realizing that🥰:


Rajput Lion said:
With the above missiles, MKI will become our Day 1 "break the door" SEAD/DEAD fighter. It's amazing how far we've evolved the MKI even well beyond what the Russians have done with their Su-30SM/Su-35S. In fact, with the above anti-radiation/air-to-surface missiles, MKI's offensive capabilities have surpassed even that of the Rafale(as it lacks a SEAD weapon at the moment).

@randomradio, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @Amarante

What's your take on the above(MKI vs Rafale in SEAD role??)
Click to expand...
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
There are two possible hypotheses:
  • Either Stéphane Mille is a good general but a poor engineer and has understood nothing about Rafale technology
  • Or he is misinforming us
Because all Rafales are already wired with fibre optics to support the EMP during a nuclear mission.

As for taking precautionary measures to facilitate the transition to standard 5, these had already been taken for the transition to F4.2, which is the old name for standard 5, and they have been applied to all the Rafales that have been exported, except for the first ones that Egypt got as a matter of urgency and which were initially intended for France. The head of the French DGA said so, and he's not a good general, but he's a good engineer.
Click to expand...

Yes, the MIL-STD-1760. But the issue is whatever Rafale has today may not be enough. Even if you have fiber optic, the cable and its interfaces may have limited speed and bandwidth. The old Rafale may have used 100-1000 Mbps bandwidth cable, interfaces motherboard etc, and may require an upgrade to 10-100 Gbps compatible systems.

As for F3R and F4, yes, you mentioned these jets will be F5 compatible. But I don't believe these systems will be plug and play to the point a Rafale from 2027 will immediately see its major systems replaced from 2033. F1 to F4 transtion was designed to be simple with flightline retrofits, whereas the jump to F5 is expected to be tremendous. It's very difficult to believe an aircraft that's currently carrying RBE2 AESA will jump to RBE2 XG without significant upgrades.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
The AASF is not a classic American-style anti radar weapon, it's a smart glider! :ROFLMAO:

zrfj.jpg


The equivalent of a Harm, if we make one, will be derived from the FMAN/FMC programme, but if we do, it will certainly be for the British.
Click to expand...

Weren't they still deciding between speed and saturation?
 
Rajput Lion said:
Remember our discussion in the other thread where I said that because of SEAD weapons(or lack of it), MKI UPG. with NGARM will become superior SEAD/DEAD platform than Rafale. I also said that because of modern IADS the low/fast penetration of Rafale with a subesquent pop-up for a Hammer strike to achieve DEAD may not be viable in the future.

Looks like the French are also realizing that🥰:
Click to expand...

There were discussions about it since the Libyan campaign report was released and the French military suggested they want a SEAD weapon for future needs.

The issue with MKI's technique, which our Rafales can also use, is saturation attacks require a massive fleet of both aircraft and missiles that may not always be available. The idea being we have been forced to use this system because our primary methods have failed against the enemy.
 
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randomradio said:
There were discussions about it since the Libyan campaign report was released and the French military suggested they want a SEAD weapon for future needs.

The issue with MKI's technique, which our Rafales can also use, is saturation attacks require a massive fleet of both aircraft and missiles that may not always be available. The idea being we have been forced to use this system because our primary methods have failed against the enemy.
Click to expand...
But the new-generation SEAD weapons like RudraM-1 is also designed for much higher accuracy and complete DEAD of IADS/SAM C3I. That's why we have put an active MMW seeker for it to track the SAM radars even once they've switched off. So a desired result is achieved via more accuracy resulting in less saturation/volumes. Thus, these new gen anti-radiation missiles differ quite a lot from their predecessors.

I am sure the French anti-radiation SEAD missile won't be any less capable than our NGARM.

PS: This admission by the French about Rafale needing SEAD missile nay also be an admission that "active stealth" isn't a guarantee like F-22/F-35's 'passive stealth' against modern AI backed AESA radars🤷‍♂️
 
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