Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Dassault Aviation atteindra fin 2024 une cadence de production de trois Rafale par mois

Dassault Aviation to increase production rate to three Rafales per month by the end of 2024

The French aircraft manufacturer, which presented its 2023 results on Wednesday morning, will increase its production rate from two to three Rafales per month by the end of this year. According to Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier, his company can scale up to a production rate of four Rafales per month.

Following a surge in orders for the Rafale (18 in 2024, 60 in 2023 and 92 in 2022), Dassault Aviation has set about increasing the production rate of the French fighter jet. "We're moving from a production rate of almost less than one in 2020, when it became really critical, to a rate of 3. Today, we are at rate 2", explained Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier in December at a meeting with the Association of Defence Journalists (AJD). The aircraft manufacturer will reach a production rate of three Rafales per month "by the end of 2024", according to the head of Dassault Aviation, who will also take over the management of Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault (GIMD) in January 2025. That's 33 combat aircraft a year. This does not mean that Dassault Aviation will deliver 33 Rafales in a single year.

Capable of a production rate of 4

This ramp-up in production of the Rafale is taking place at a time when the aeronautical subcontracting chain is experiencing deep and recurring difficulties. The Rafale is also affected by these problems. "We are seeing some delays in Rafale deliveries, but they are not at the same level as Falcon deliveries", said Eric Trappier. As a general rule, Dassault Aviation needs about a year to gain one point in throughput, but with the difficulties of the production line "a little longer", he added. And to manufacture a Rafale - from primary parts to delivery - takes the manufacturer around 36 months.

The manufacturer considers that the rate of three Rafales per month is compatible with the contracts signed, including the order ratified at the end of December by the French Ministry of Defence (42 aircraft), while obtaining some additional export contracts. Finally, Dassault Aviation says it is capable of moving up to a rate of four Rafales a month, provided it wins new orders from India and Saudi Arabia. Eric Trappier assured us that the Mérignac plant is capable of sustaining such a production rate.

211 Rafales in the order book

Despite a slowdown in commercial results in 2023, Dassault Aviation has had a very good year. It was hard for it to do as well in 2023 as it did in 2022. In total, Dassault Aviation added 60 Rafales to its order book in 2023 (compared with 92 in 2022). However, the Rafale order book peaked at the end of 2023 at 211 aircraft (141 for export, including 80 for the United Arab Emirates, and 70 for France), compared with 164 Rafales at the end of 2022.

2024 Result for Dassault

AIRCRAFT DELIVERED IN 2024

21 Rafale (14 France, 7 Export) were delivered, while 20 had been guided, versus 13 Rafale (11 France, 2 Export) delivered in 2023.
31 Falcon were delivered, while 35 had been guided, versus 26 Falcon delivered in 2023.

AIRCRAFT ORDERED IN 2024

30 Export Rafale were ordered versus 60 Rafale (42 France, 18 Export) in 2023.
26 Falcon were ordered versus 23 Falcon in 2023.

AIRCRAFT IN BACKLOG As of December 31, 2024, the backlog includes:

220 Rafale (164 Export, 56 France) versus 211 Rafale as of December 31, 2023,
79 Falcon versus 84 Falcon as of December 31, 2023.

The Dassault Aviation Group reminds that it will publish financial result on March 5 2025.

 

[Ashwin]

2024 Result for Dassault

AIRCRAFT DELIVERED IN 2024

21 Rafale (14 France, 7 Export) were delivered, while 20 had been guided, versus 13 Rafale (11 France, 2 Export) delivered in 2023.
31 Falcon were delivered, while 35 had been guided, versus 26 Falcon delivered in 2023.

AIRCRAFT ORDERED IN 2024

30 Export Rafale were ordered versus 60 Rafale (42 France, 18 Export) in 2023.
26 Falcon were ordered versus 23 Falcon in 2023.

AIRCRAFT IN BACKLOG As of December 31, 2024, the backlog includes:

220 Rafale (164 Export, 56 France) versus 211 Rafale as of December 31, 2023,
79 Falcon versus 84 Falcon as of December 31, 2023.

The Dassault Aviation Group reminds that it will publish financial result on March 5 2025.

When is it suppose to reach 30+ ?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

When is it suppose to reach 30+ ?

Dassault a quasiment doublé ses livraisons de Rafale en 2024
Dassault has almost doubled its Rafale deliveries by 2024

Dassault Aviation has delivered 21 Rafales in 2024, compared with 13 in 2023. The aircraft manufacturer hopes to reach the rate of three aircraft per month in 2025 (That will be 33 by year), but is facing tensions within its supplier chain. While the success of its fighter aircraft is confirmed, its business jets are less successful.

Rafale deliveries are really picking up. On Tuesday 7 January, Dassault Aviation announced that it had delivered 21 of its fighter aircraft last year, against 13 in 2023. That's one more than the target set at the beginning of the year. In detail, 14 Rafales were destined for the French army and 7 for export. With a total order book of 220 Rafales (including 164 for export), compared with 211 last year, the manufacturer is seeking to increase its production rates in order to reduce delivery times to its customers. This is despite major tensions within the supplier chain.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

We'll see on 5 March what Dassault announces in terms of monthly Rafale production, but it had announced that the switch to 3 would take place at the end of 2024 and beginning of 2025, and as it has produced 21 Rafales instead of 20, we can assume that it has already been at 3 since December. What's more, the government has asked the industry to adopt a wartime economy, and Dassault has replied that it will favour Rafale production over Falcon production. It has also said that it can increase production to 4 aircraft a month, or 44 a year. And I think it will do so the next time a contract is signed.

 

[_Anonymous_]

2024 Result for Dassault

AIRCRAFT DELIVERED IN 2024

21 Rafale (14 France, 7 Export) were delivered, while 20 had been guided, versus 13 Rafale (11 France, 2 Export) delivered in 2023.
31 Falcon were delivered, while 35 had been guided, versus 26 Falcon delivered in 2023.

AIRCRAFT ORDERED IN 2024

30 Export Rafale were ordered versus 60 Rafale (42 France, 18 Export) in 2023.
26 Falcon were ordered versus 23 Falcon in 2023.

AIRCRAFT IN BACKLOG As of December 31, 2024, the backlog includes:

220 Rafale (164 Export, 56 France) versus 211 Rafale as of December 31, 2023,
79 Falcon versus 84 Falcon as of December 31, 2023.

The Dassault Aviation Group reminds that it will publish financial result on March 5 2025.

Real cheerful news !

Means even if we sign a deal for 36 nos for the IAF we won't get them before 2031 & the deliveries would go on for perhaps 2-3 years speaking of which when will we receive the 26 nos Rafale M for the IN ? Would the deliveries for them commence from 2031 too or is that coming from a separate assembly line ?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Real cheerful news !

Means even if we sign a deal for 36 nos for the IAF we won't get them before 2031 & the deliveries would go on for perhaps 2-3 years speaking of which when will we receive the 26 nos Rafale M for the IN ? Would the deliveries for them commence from 2031 too or is that coming from a separate assembly line ?

I don't think you understand. Dassault constantly adapts its production so that a new contract can begin deliveries 3 years after it is signed. The only exception was the UAE contract, but the UAE wanted deliveries to start later.

So if you order 26 aircraft for your Navy, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed, if you also order 36 Rafales for the IAF, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed and if you order the MRFA, deliveries will also start 3 years after the contract is signed.

If you want the aircraft to be produced in India, deliveries will start 4 years after the contract is signed (you can start earlier by producing a small series in France).

Instead of wanting Dassault to produce more, you'd be better off getting India to sign up sooner, that's normally easier.

 

[lcafanboy]

I don't think you understand. Dassault constantly adapts its production so that a new contract can begin deliveries 3 years after it is signed. The only exception was the UAE contract, but the UAE wanted deliveries to start later.

So if you order 26 aircraft for your Navy, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed, if you also order 36 Rafales for the IAF, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed and if you order the MRFA, deliveries will also start 3 years after the contract is signed.

If you want the aircraft to be produced in India, deliveries will start 4 years after the contract is signed (you can start earlier by producing a small series in France).

Instead of wanting Dassault to produce more, you'd be better off getting India to sign up sooner, that's normally easier.

Basically Indian Govt's habit of placing piecemeal orders for defence equipment is Bane of all the trouble like placing order of just 100 K9 vajra self propelled gun instead required 600 at one Go it brings down the cost as you will get better deal and faster delivery but strange our the ways of government and defence baboons...
MRFA Complete deal for 126 aircraft should have been signed in 2016 itself with 36 aircraft coming from France and rest production should have been started by 2020-21 and 36 Rafale M should too have been negotiated while signing the deal in 2016 itself.
Fact is we should have been negotiating for additional 126 Rafale F5 by now to be delivered post 2030. But alas.

 

[Bon Plan]

Real cheerful news !

Means even if we sign a deal for 36 nos for the IAF we won't get them before 2031 & the deliveries would go on for perhaps 2-3 years speaking of which when will we receive the 26 nos Rafale M for the IN ? Would the deliveries for them commence from 2031 too or is that coming from a separate assembly line ?

Not so sure.
In the past french airforce let some slots for export customer.
We may also imagine a deal with UAE to spread the delivery of its 80 on order so as to urge some other customer orders.

 

[Sathya]

Real cheerful news !

Means even if we sign a deal for 36 nos for the IAF we won't get them before 2031 & the deliveries would go on for perhaps 2-3 years speaking of which when will we receive the 26 nos Rafale M for the IN ? Would the deliveries for them commence from 2031 too or is that coming from a separate assembly line ?

I find getting delayed deal for F5 version is better for Navy .
Because navy don't have stealth fighter plans.
F5 will do better .
Let IAF place order for 36 now for commonality & also have AMCA to back up later.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I don't think you understand. Dassault constantly adapts its production so that a new contract can begin deliveries 3 years after it is signed. The only exception was the UAE contract, but the UAE wanted deliveries to start later.

So if you order 26 aircraft for your Navy, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed, if you also order 36 Rafales for the IAF, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed and if you order the MRFA, deliveries will also start 3 years after the contract is signed.

If you want the aircraft to be produced in India, deliveries will start 4 years after the contract is signed (you can start earlier by producing a small series in France).

Instead of wanting Dassault to produce more, you'd be better off getting India to sign up sooner, that's normally easier.

Jeez uncle ! You seem grumpier than usual this morning. What's the matter ? Didn't get your breakfast in time ? Everything alright ?

Anyway thanks for the elaborate answer.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I find getting delayed deal for F5 version is better for Navy .
Because navy don't have stealth fighter plans.
F5 will do better .
Let IAF place order for 36 now for commonality & also have AMCA to back up later.

On the contrary the IN will possibly stand a better chance of getting the whole lot within 5 years as it's the only order of its kind apart from what the French Navy may have ordered assuming we sign the agreement next month.

That would've been one of the preconditions IN would've set Dassault before awarding them the bid. Right now we've two ACs with a handicapped air complement. They might as well be doing their tour of duty minus any deck based Fighter Aircrafts.

 

[randomradio]

I find getting delayed deal for F5 version is better for Navy .
Because navy don't have stealth fighter plans.
F5 will do better .
Let IAF place order for 36 now for commonality & also have AMCA to back up later.

The IN probably prefers getting the fighters rather than waste time waiting for the next version. They could always order a second squadron later on. Their original requirement dropped from 80 to 72 to 57 to 36 and now 26. MRCBF RFI was for 57. There's always a possibility of getting to 57, 'cause that's the number Vishal requires, considering IN's next gen is delayed.

Otoh, locally assembling 26+36 F4s for a start would be a good idea before MRFA matures.

PS: Forgot to mention that IN's requirement is already delayed by 2 years.

 

[randomradio]

I don't think you understand. Dassault constantly adapts its production so that a new contract can begin deliveries 3 years after it is signed. The only exception was the UAE contract, but the UAE wanted deliveries to start later.

So if you order 26 aircraft for your Navy, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed, if you also order 36 Rafales for the IAF, deliveries will start 3 years after the contract is signed and if you order the MRFA, deliveries will also start 3 years after the contract is signed.

If you want the aircraft to be produced in India, deliveries will start 4 years after the contract is signed (you can start earlier by producing a small series in France).

Instead of wanting Dassault to produce more, you'd be better off getting India to sign up sooner, that's normally easier.

Has the Saudi deal moved forward? That could throw a monkey wrench in future plans, like a stopgap deal for the IAF. Their deal could hit the supply chain.

 

[Sathya]

On the contrary the IN will possibly stand a better chance of getting the whole lot within 5 years as it's the only order of its kind apart from what the French Navy may have ordered assuming we sign the agreement next month.

That would've been one of the preconditions IN would've set Dassault before awarding them the bid. Right now we've two ACs with a handicapped air complement. They might as well be doing their tour of duty minus any deck based Fighter Aircrafts.

Agreed, since Rafale M itself a stopgap solution before TEDBF..

But missing out major generational upgrade, wherein we can't upgrade F4x series to F5, in mere 3-5 years of difference.

we can design Tedbf based on F5.
Since it's still in design phase.
Otoh IAF has NO plans for ORCA.

In future, IAF game will be F5 vs ORCA.

 

[Bon Plan]

Agreed, since Rafale M itself a stopgap solution before TEDBF..

But missing out major generational upgrade, wherein we can't upgrade F4x series to F5, in mere 3-5 years of difference.

we can design Tedbf based on F5.
Since it's still in design phase.
Otoh IAF has NO plans for ORCA.

In future, IAF game will be F5 vs ORCA.

TEDBF, as know today, seems a copy and past of Rafale. Maybe better to order or locally built some more Rafale M ?

We heard some rumors about a merge between AMCA and TEDBF. Maybe only about some parts (radar, electronic counter measures) or the whole bird => the planning of each will slip. Other delay to come.

 

[Bon Plan]

I find getting delayed deal for F5 version is better for Navy .
Because navy don't have stealth fighter plans.
F5 will do better .
Let IAF place order for 36 now for commonality & also have AMCA to back up later.

Rafale F5 real aspect is unclear, but probably will keep the external frame.
Now that the potential customers know a F5 std will come, you can be sure brand new F4 will be made with F5 in mind, so as to give customers trust in the future of the bird.
The "old" Rafale will be upgradable to F4 and not more (all is possible, but at what price?). The brand new delivered with F4, and natively potent for F5 and more.
What about indian F3R ???

 

[Sathya]

Rafale F5 real aspect is unclear, but probably will keep the external frame.
Now that the potential customers know a F5 std will come, you can be sure brand new F4 will be made with F5 in mind, so as to give customers trust in the future of the bird.
The "old" Rafale will be upgradable to F4 and not more (all is possible, but at what price?). The brand new delivered with F4, and natively potent for F5 and more.
What about indian F3R ???

Are there any plans for Naval F5 Rafale?

Is it too early to ask?

Another question are there any plans for Naval SCAF?

 

[Sathya]

TEDBF, as know today, seems a copy and past of Rafale. Maybe better to order or locally built some more Rafale M ?

We heard some rumors about a merge between AMCA and TEDBF. Maybe only about some parts (radar, electronic counter measures) or the whole bird => the planning of each will slip. Other delay to come.

Don't know yet, if it's copy paste , better to do F5.
I doubt ADA will do copy paste job..
Probably some help from French as offset.

Although I won't mind working on proven design first.

HTT 40 BTA development was done on record time by working on proven design.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Agreed, since Rafale M itself a stopgap solution before TEDBF..

But missing out major generational upgrade, wherein we can't upgrade F4x series to F5, in mere 3-5 years of difference.

we can design Tedbf based on F5.
Since it's still in design phase.
Otoh IAF has NO plans for ORCA.

In future, IAF game will be F5 vs ORCA.

F5 upgrades can come later. They're not as imperative as getting the bird itself.

TEDBF has already turned into something more influenced by Rafale than the NLCA.

There's no ORCA nor MRFA only Rafales & AMCA Mk-1 for the IAF. In fact expect to see MUCH MORE than 40 nos in IAF livery . They'd constitute the missing component of MMRCA 1.0 / 2.0 / MRFA that we don't get thru the Rafales.

 

[Sathya]

F5 upgrades can come later. They're not as imperative as getting the bird itself.

TEDBF has already turned into something more influenced by Rafale than the NLCA.

There's no ORCA nor MRFA only Rafales & AMCA Mk-1 for the IAF. In fact expect to see MUCH MORE than 40 nos in IAF livery . They'd constitute the missing component of MMRCA 1.0 / 2.0 / MRFA that we don't get thru the Rafales.

Anyways we can only speculate.. And see wht ll happen later.

It would have been nicer if we ordered second batch of 36 Rafales 1 year after the delivery of first batch..

Paid base accommodation and ISE, we expected to enjoy cheaper second batch.

I believe Tedbf is following Rafale because of fear of failure time over run & getting nowhere.

I believe N LCA experience is guiding them to go safest route possible to avoid unnecessary delays.

Nothing happening.