Explosion near Red Fort: At least 9 dead, several injured in blast

Or Simply perhaps they want Dassault to shift more of their supply chain here. No need to malice in every intent..75% could very well be just an attempt to negotiate to reach a middle ground somewhere.
They have been negotiating for over 20 years, and probably come tk a conclusion in another 20 when the tech is absolutely useless.

Our aim should be to match china and our air force is no way ready to fight a war with china, let alone both at the same time. If anyone says so it either a fool or a propaganda artist.

My question to the indian gov why hide how many aircraft lost in sindhoor? Even after being mocked by trump after 60 times. Even china would have come out with a false number and handle the narrative better releasing photos of pows.
 
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They have been negotiating for over 20 years, and probably come tk a conclusion in another 20 when the tech is absolutely useless.

Our aim should be to match china and our air force is no way ready to fight a war with china, let alone both at the same time. If anyone says so it either a fool or a propaganda artist.

My question to the indian gov why hide how many aircraft lost in sindhoor? Even after being mocked by trump after 60 times. Even china would have come out with a false number and handle the narrative better releasing photos of pows.

We are delayed with Rafale and also engine deal for decades..
Still haven't signed both..

This reminds of indranil post, until we develop capabilities it won't be offered..

And French are better ones for India out there .


Second part Op Sindhoor is not over yet for GOI.
 
They have been negotiating for over 20 years, and probably come tk a conclusion in another 20 when the tech is absolutely useless.

Our aim should be to match china and our air force is no way ready to fight a war with china, let alone both at the same time. If anyone says so it either a fool or a propaganda artist.

My question to the indian gov why hide how many aircraft lost in sindhoor? Even after being mocked by trump after 60 times. Even china would have come out with a false number and handle the narrative better releasing photos of pows.
While I partially agree with you that we need Jets quickly. My point is simple. If you rush by throwing away every bit of leverage away just to induct Rafale by G2G deal in desperation those are not coming anytime soon. Simply because Rafale has a huge backlog. And the nature of how these deal get signed would add 1-2 year of delay anyways. Just look at what happened with original Rafale deal because it was done in a hurry. We got Rafale with no BVR capabilities, French did drama wrt India Specific Enhancement for years and what not. So negotiations are important. Everything has to be clearly defined. What would Rafale be of use when it won't be able to use Indian weapons, it won't be able to properly utilise IACCS.
 
Wdym we dont do EW at all? Our EW is still a work in progress but this is such a ludicrous assumption. We literally spooked so many PL15s wasn't that a case of EW? We even have ELINT satellites though it is only 1 in number. Rest of the rant is 100% true however.
IAF, to the best of my knowledge does not have a dedicated EW platform like EA-18G Growler nor it does have a dedicated jamming aircraft like Pakistan's "Blinders". I am more than happy to be corrected on this, if someone more knowledigble can point me to right sources or threads.

What, to the best of my knowledge we have are ground based jammers and self protection jammers.

I am not really sure what happened with PL-15 because details are still limited but my educated guess would be that PL-15s were diverted to a large extant using our fighters SPJs.

What we did not have was somethign that could completely prevent PAF from even targetting our planes by denying it a radar lock. Something like a dedicated jamming platform.

Alternatively, we could have fielded a home on jam missile to take out the jammers in the sky.
 
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IAF, to the best of my knowledge does not have a dedicated EW platform like EA-18G Growler nor it does have a dedicated jamming aircraft like Pakistan's "Blinders". I am more than happy to be corrected on this, if someone more knowledigble can point me to right sources or threads.

What, to the best of my knowledge we have are ground based jammers and self protection jammers.

I am not really sure what happened with PL-15 because details are still limited but my educated guess would be that PL-15s were diverted to a large extant using our fighters SPJs.

What we did not have was somethign that could completely prevent PAF from even targetting our planes by denying it a radar lock. Something like a dedicated jamming platform.

Alternatively, we could have fielded a home on jam missile to take out the jammers in the sky.
We don't have..Su-30 MKIs can be converted but IAF has shown no interest in every submitting a proposal for that unfortunately.

I was able to find the only mention of IAF ever being interested in EW platform in our favourite tabloid ****. But as we all know how much they love to fantasize.
 
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Honestly you should look at the order book of Rafale. It's full. Tejas Mk2 would probably get inducted before the first Rafale would arrive even if GoI start the process of acquiring Rafale anytime soon. When you are going get those jets after a long time anyways, then you might as well have a good deal with some extra.
I am sure if we go with swinging a big cheque book, french will find ways to accomodate us. 110 planes worth some 25-30 billion dollars is a big cheque book. Ask and you shall recieve. Just dont pay Ladli Lado Chootna Randi Revadi Yojana for an year and buy planes.

From rumors that I heard, Ukraine was promised a complete delivery of 100 Rafales to be fulfilled by 2035 if they order in Nov 2025 (Ukraine’s Questionable Plan To Buy Up To 100 Rafale Fighters). Remember, this is still a letter of intent nor a firm order. I am sure if India signs a G2G deal right now and greases few palms, it could get all of its Rafales delivered by 2032 or so.

Now if you want things even faster, Unkil has a vast pool of F-16s lying useless. Pay lockmart to convert them into drones and you can field 300-400 QF-16 like drones by 2035, if not earlier. Heck you can have 100 F-16s as manned as early as 2028 and rest as drones. I will say it will be a great addition. It will come at the cost of, well, making IAF a fukken shitshow of all kinds of planes. But hey, it was us who messed up acquisition and not others.
 
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We don't have..Su-30 MKIs can be converted but IAF has shown no interest in every submitting a proposal for that unfortunately.

I was able to find the only mention of IAF ever being interested in EW platform in our favourite tabloid ****. But as we all know how much they love to fantasize.
There you go my friend, now you know what I mean and why I think GoI has way less confidence in our tri service. From what I remember talking to @hellfire_81 back in the day, there is a competition in forces to see who leaves the most budget unutilized. Its unhealthy and it comes from our Babus and it is rewarded by political leadership.
 
I am sure if we go with swinging a big cheque book, french will find ways to accomodate us. 110 planes worth some 25-30 billion dollars is a big cheque book. Ask and you shall recieve. Just dont pay Ladli Lado Chootna Randi Revadi Yojana for an year and buy planes.

From rumors that I heard, Ukraine was promised a complete delivery of 100 Rafales to be fulfilled by 2035 if they order in Nov 2025 (Ukraine’s Questionable Plan To Buy Up To 100 Rafale Fighters). Remember, this is still a letter of intent nor a firm order. I am sure if India signs a G2G deal right now and greases few palms, it could get all of its Rafales delivered by 2032 or so.

Now if you want things even faster, Unkil has a vast pool of F-16s lying useless. Pay lockmart to convert them into drones and you can field 300-400 QF-16 like drones by 2035, if not earlier. Heck you can have 100 F-16s as manned as early as 2028 and rest as drones. I will say it will be a great addition. It will come at the cost of, well, making IAF a fukken shitshow of all kinds of planes. But hey, it was us who messed up acquisition and not others.
My friend g2g deals are not silver bullets.. there are repercussions to purchase anything via g2g route. Because it depends geopolitical relationship more than pure business... I'm afraid we going for g2g last time is one of the cause of all we getting less than what we want in our Rafales...
 
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My question to the indian gov why hide how many aircraft lost in sindhoor? Even after being mocked by trump after 60 times. Even china would have come out with a false number and handle the narrative better releasing photos of pows.
I do not care about losses as such, my issue is the political will (or lack there of) in punishing a country like Pakistan. And I believe that lack of political will is largely due to lack of confidence in our forces because those at the helm know how much they have underfunded and undeservly neglected the forces equipment and mordenization.
 
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My friend g2g deals are not silver bullets.. there are repercussions to purchase anything via g2g route. Because it depends geopolitical relationship more than pure business...
Its a choice between bad options now because we.... messed up acquistion since forever. IMHO, homegrown manufacturing in India is even worse. Look at how our LCA acquistion and even IJT acquisition is working out for us. Not to mention how our AIP acquisition has worked out for us.

I think we need to keep our forces decently and adequately equipped WRT the threats we face and our R&D pipeline (public and private) needs to be funded over and above that.

Linking the two ie acquisition and R&D pipeline by stupidities like "Atmnirbhar Bharat" is ensuring we will keep on getting outdated and outarmed by even smaller adversories.
 
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Its a choice between bad options now because we.... messed up acquistion since forever. IMHO, homegrown manufacturing in India is even worse. Look at how our LCA acquistion and even IJT acquisition is working out for us. Not to mention how our AIP acquisition has worked out for us.

I think we need to keep our forces decently and adequately equipped WRT the threats we face and our R&D pipeline (public and private) needs to be funded over and above that.

Linking the two ie acquisition and R&D pipeline by stupidities like "Atmnirbhar Bharat" is ensuring we will keep on getting outdated and outarmed by even smaller adversories.
I get the overall gist of what you want to say here. And I can relate with it. However, can one guarantee that those Rafales we will purchase in emergency via G2G route would be able to fire our own weapons like Astra, Gaurav, etc.? Or we have to end up to sending those aircrafts to France for any weapon integration in the future as well. After going through pesky behaviour of French vendor that they would rather offer an alternative than integrated our weapon. That's why negotiation is important. We need to have some guarantees. Money is not the issue here.
 
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Can you guarantee that those Rafales we will purchase in emergency via G2G route would be able to fire our own weapons like Astra, Gaurav, etc.? That's why negotiation is important.
I can guarentee that having no fighter aircraft will certainly not be able to fire anything. I can guarentee that having outdate aircrafts will certainly not be able to compete against an adversory with modern weapons.

As for integration, well, I would have rather bought Radar tech from Leonardo back in 2010s and integrated everything we wanted than waiting for our radar to mature. That way we would have gotten a modern european radar integrated with likes of Meteor and also integrated with what we have : Astra, Gandiva etc. Right now that Virupaksha is just a god damned slide on a ppt often shown and will not be flying in any aircraft before 2035 or so. Not to mention, Uttam is locked out because Tejas itself is locked out due to engine availability.

Will Dassault sell you the sources for Rafale's radar? In 2000s they were willing to because they had no orders back then. Now? I do not know. May be dangling engine purchase for AMCA might work? Or Workshare in other defence deals?

The reason I am fixated on Rafale is because we have already paid the time and money in India Specific Enhancements.
 
I can guarentee that having no fighter aircraft will certainly not be able to fire anything. I can guarentee that having outdate aircrafts will certainly not be able to compete against an adversory with modern weapons.

As for integration, well, I would have rather bought Radar tech from Leonardo back in 2010s and integrated everything we wanted than waiting for our radar to mature. That way we would have gotten a modern european radar integrated with likes of Meteor and also integrated with what we have : Astra, Gandiva etc. Right now that Virupaksha is just a god damned slide on a ppt often shown and will not be flying in any aircraft before 2035 or so. Not to mention, Uttam is locked out because Tejas itself is locked out due to engine availability.

Will Dassault sell you the sources for Rafale's radar? In 2000s they were willing to because they had no orders back then. Now? I do not know. May be dangling engine purchase for AMCA might work? Or Workshare in other defence deals?

The reason I am fixated on Rafale is because we have already paid the time and money in India Specific Enhancements.
I mean by this logic we should just throw away everything and import everything in a hurry in desperation. And about our R&D, that's how R&D works my friend. You don't get things instantly.

Also Tejas & Sukhoi are there. Tejas is not some dead project. There are orders for it. Engine issues is getting shorted out. And we literally saw Mk1A flying with Astra Mk1 my friend. So, it's not like we will have no aircraft at all.
 
Pakistan did that for us when they decided to hit our civilians and military targets. And we did hit them pretty hard - you can label the initial strike (terror target only) as bare minimum (even though it was in Pak heartland) - but the follow on strikes (11+ bases & what not) that was massive. Remember it was Pak that came begging for us to stop. I don’t think those strikes would have happened if GoI didn’t have faith on the military to be able to sustain the conflict.
You dont stop when other party comes begging. You stop when your goal are met. Our goal should have been complete elemination of Pakistan's military and intelligence leadership. Our goal should have been to make Pakistani generals bleed and pay in their own investments and family deaths for that.

The price for that kind of goal was risk of a full fledged war with Pakistan and that was only acceptable to GoI if it had a confidence in its forces to win the war. Sadly, due to historical, ongoing and possibly future neglect of our forces's moderenization and equipment, we will never have any leadership who would be confident enough in our forces.
I mean by this logic we should just throw away everything and import everything in a hurry in desperation
By this logic, we should fund both our R&D pipeline and modernization of our forces parallely by increasing our defence cap-ex from pitiable 20-24 billion dollars a year to a whole 100 billion dollars or so, there by bringing our defence expense to about 165 billion dollars or 4.1% of our GDP from pitiable 1.9% of our GDP as of now.

Its doable. Very much doable. We will have to stop worthless gibs me dat like Lado Chootna Randi Yojnas a bit.
 
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This thread has derailed and gone into aspects that pertain to Sindoor Aftermath and Sindoor 2.0 (analysis/preparedness).
Look, you can not talk about fishes without talking about water. I have seen this derailment accusing as a way to shut down discussions.
 
Look, you can not talk about fishes without talking about water. I have seen this derailment accusing as a way to shut down discussions.
All I recommended was that this discussion should be held in the relevant thread. That's all that was meant to be. Sindoor and other aspects can be discussed on threads that already exist.

I am not shutting anything down. Please feel free to continue.
 
What are you on about here? Any basis for your rationale?

There's wasn't Confidence in forces?

I don't think you realised the significance of what we did during op sindoor yet.
Look, things have significance when they make significant impact. USA dropped nukes on Japan, now Japan does not says or act on "We gotta defeat USA" -- atleast publicly.

If you want the Pakistan question to have a final solution, you gotta hit them where it hurts. And that part is generals and leaders of Pakistan's military establishment. Blow up their residences, kill their familes, blow up their investments, destroy their DHAs, blow up their factories and Askari Foundation stuff, blow up the banks owned by them and you will find them being way less adventerous than they are right now.

Look at what Israel did to Sinwar et al.

Cost of this, however, is the risk of a full fledged war. And for that you should be ready. And for past 70 years, we have never been ready irrespective of our economic heft.
All I recommended was that this discussion should be held in the relevant thread. That's all that was meant to be. Sindoor and other aspects can be discussed on threads that already exist.

I am not shutting anything down. Please feel free to continue.
All I am saying is you will not be able to separate discussions neatly in threads always. Sometimes something will indeed cross boundries. Such is the nature of discussion
 
By this logic, we should fund both our R&D pipeline and modernization of our forces parallely by increasing our defence cap-ex from pitiable 20-24 billion dollars a year to a whole 100 billion dollars or so, there by bringing our defence expense to about 165 billion dollars or 4.1% of our GDP from pitiable 1.9% of our GDP as of now.
Yeah but at what cost? It’s very easy for us sitting online to say “just raise defence capex to $100B,” but the government doesn’t get to think that way. They can’t just pull tens of billions out of thin air without answering some basic questions.

Can they slash salaries and pensions? Of course not, these are legal and institutional obligations for both civilian and defence personnel.
Can they cut operational spending? Only up to a limit. Fuel, maintenance, logistics, ammunition stockpiles — these aren’t luxuries that you can shut off.

Just because GDP is growing doesn’t mean the government suddenly has an endless pool of money. The microeconomics matters. Every extra rupee sent to defence has to come from somewhere else, health, education, infrastructure, food security, debt servicing. A government isn’t running a single-sector business; it has to juggle multiple priorities at once.

And here’s the important context people ignore: central capex in H1 2026 has already grown by around 40% year-on-year. That doesn’t mean defence automatically gets a 40% jump. Capex includes railways, highways, power, digital infrastructure, green energy, space, atomic energy, all the things that actually raise India’s long-term national power. If the government undershoots on these, there’s a cost. If it overshoots and cuts something else, there’s a cost too.

Even within this tight space, defence capital spending has gone up about 9.1% YoY. That’s steady, sustainable growth. You don’t go from $20–24B to $100B overnight without wrecking the fiscal math.

So the whole “just increase defence capex to $100B because GDP went up” argument doesn’t hold any water. Growth in GDP doesn’t automatically mean unlimited budgetary space. Governments deal with hard ceilings, trade-offs and non-negotiable expenditures. It’s not as simple as wishfully moving sliders up and down.

Again you need to stop looking at Defence budget through % of GDP. Look at it % of Budget because that is what matters. Govt's revenue doesn't necessarily increase at the same rate as GDP. Infact it almost always grows at an inadequate rate in a developing country like India..
 
Yeah but at what cost? It’s very easy for us sitting online to say “just raise defence capex to $100B,” but the government doesn’t get to think that way. They can’t just pull tens of billions out of thin air without answering some basic questions.
I mean, they literally do that, right?


sops grew 250% or more from 0.2% of GDP to 0.5% of GDP. When government wants it does exactly that. putting 100s of billions of dollars into things it feels are necessary.

If they can do it for sops, they can do it for defence too.
 
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