Future Combat Vehicle Programs (FRCV and FICV)

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Army gets going on plan to buy over 1,700 ‘future tanks’ that will become its main battle tanks

1,770 FRCVs will be procured along with transfer of technology, performance-based logistics, engineering support package, and other maintenance and training needs.

www.google.com

 

[Ginvincible]

Army gets going on plan to buy over 1,700 ‘future tanks’ that will become its main battle tanks

1,770 FRCVs will be procured along with transfer of technology, performance-based logistics, engineering support package, and other maintenance and training needs.

www.google.com

...phased manner under the strategic partnership route...

...the 1,770 FRCVs will be procured along with transfer of technology, performance-based logistics, engineering support package, and other maintenance and training requirements.

So this is going to be an imported tank then? What candidates they are looking at? What modern "high mobility" foreign tank is capable of fighting in "high altitude areas, plains and riverine borders as well as deserts" ?

 

[Ashwin]

Tender Document Attached

FICV should be under strategic partnerships model. FRCV should be DRDO design not import.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

So it means that the FMBT or NG-MBT of DRDO is dead !

 

[Ankit Kumar]

So this is going to be an imported tank then? What candidates they are looking at? What modern "high mobility" foreign tank is capable of fighting in "high altitude areas, plains and riverine borders as well as deserts" ?

Power to weight ratio of 30.... Only one New Generation Tank is near this number. T14.

 

[Killbot]

Power to weight ratio of 30.... Only one New Generation Tank is near this number. T14.

Which is another tincan. Tincan zindabad.

 

[randomradio]

So it means that the FMBT or NG-MBT of DRDO is dead !

FRCV is expected to be a family of vehicles, at least a dozen of them, all on one platform. There's no way DRDO can deliver this on their own when more advanced nations are still struggling.

Also, there is a massive, massive disadvantage in chasing after DRDO, and that would be OFB. The army wants to bypass the DRDO-OFB complex completely. The best way to do that would be to hand over the contract to the Indian private sector. And the SPM is the best way to do that.

The army wants to diversify away from OFB as much as possible.

Anyway DRDO is expected to be a technology partner for the FRCV. So they are expected to provide a lot of technologies they have developed for the NGMBT.

 

[randomradio]

Power to weight ratio of 30.... Only one New Generation Tank is near this number. T14.

I had pointed out in another thread that we need either an all-electric drive or at least a hybrid electric drive. The latter is now the minimum requirement, so that's good news. The hybrid drive will provide a lot of power beyond just the basic figure we get out of PWR because of the instantaneous acceleration electricity provides.

Anyway, it's not just the T-14. There are two other tanks in development, one European and one American, that make use of the T-14's design. It's only that the Russians were the first.

 

[randomradio]

Which is another tincan. Tincan zindabad.

The T-14 is currently the most advanced tank in the world, it's actually a true next-gen tank. The Europeans began development of their own equivalent as a knee-jerk reaction to the T-14's arrival.

But what's really more important is the T-14 is part of the Armata UCP, which is a large family of vehicles, and that's what makes the real difference in the battlefield. Placing all vehicles on a single platform allows significant transformation of an army's logistics capabilities, which can potentially create a multiplier effect on the battlefield. Even without considering the basic specs of the T-14 and other platforms, which are already superior to anything in existence, we will end up seeing a massive multiplier effect in the armoured column's mobility, and the more mobile army generally wins wars. Which is why the T-14 is a true next gen tank. And all other countries are now emulating it, including India with the FRCV.

 

[Chain Smoker]

View attachment 17005

FRCV is expected to be a family of vehicles, at least a dozen of them, all on one platform. There's no way DRDO can deliver this on their own when more advanced nations are still struggling.

Also, there is a massive, massive disadvantage in chasing after DRDO, and that would be OFB. The army wants to bypass the DRDO-OFB complex completely. The best way to do that would be to hand over the contract to the Indian private sector. And the SPM is the best way to do that.

The army wants to diversify away from OFB as much as possible.

Anyway DRDO is expected to be a technology partner for the FRCV. So they are expected to provide a lot of technologies they have developed for the NGMBT.

Why can't DRDO develop NGMBT under SP model with private player like ATAGS. I don't think armata is going to come, this bullshit is being repeated since last ten years.

The T-14 is currently the most advanced tank in the world, it's actually a true next-gen tank. The Europeans began development of their own equivalent as a knee-jerk reaction to the T-14's arrival.

But what's really more important is the T-14 is part of the Armata UCP, which is a large family of vehicles, and that's what makes the real difference in the battlefield. Placing all vehicles on a single platform allows significant transformation of an army's logistics capabilities, which can potentially create a multiplier effect on the battlefield. Even without considering the basic specs of the T-14 and other platforms, which are already superior to anything in existence, we will end up seeing a massive multiplier effect in the armoured column's mobility, and the more mobile army generally wins wars. Which is why the T-14 is a true next gen tank. And all other countries are now emulating it, including India with the FRCV.

Yeah T 14 is so advanced that Russians themselves are not using it.

 

[randomradio]

View attachment 17005

Why can't DRDO develop NGMBT under SP model with private player like ATAGS.

DRDO has shown no competence in developing a UCP. They are developing NGMBT as a single tank and not as a family of vehicles. They haven't even attempted at doing this to show competence.

A UCP isn't just a tank, it's about 12+ vehicles all based on the same platform. So the same hull, tracks and engine will power all the vehicles. And the top of the vehicle will be modified for different needs, like a main gun and autoloader on an unmanned turret for a tank; a small rapid fire gun, ATGMs and a passenger compartment for IFV etc. Similarly, there will be a recovery vehicle, ambulance, SPH, bridge layer, APC etc, everything using one single design.

I don't think armata is going to come, this bullshit is being repeated since last ten years.

The deal is not for Armata, it's a full R&D deal. Foreign OEMs can offer their currently designed UCPs or even a new design, it's up to them, but all the IP will rest with the Indian partner, so it's unlikely that the Russians will offer the Armata itself. This is not a license production deal.

Yeah T 14 is so advanced that Russians themselves are not using it.

You seem to be referring to the T-95, which was deemed far too advanced and expensive for induction. Armata's T-14 is a less advanced tank that was born out of fiscal realities of the time, made worse by a 25% cut in the Russian defence budget, followed by stagnation over the last few years, hence the delay in its induction.

But...

Russian Army to get 1st batch of combat vehicles based on Armata platform in 2022

The batch will include T-14 tanks, T-15 infantry fighting vehicles and T-16 armored repair and evacuation hardware, according to the defense chief

tass.com

“In 2022, there are plans to deliver a pilot batch of T-14 tanks, T-15 infantry fighting vehicles, and T-16 armored repair and evacuation hardware to the troops,” Shoigu said.

Inductions are beginning from next year.

The Russian MIC is more advanced than India's so we are 10-15 years behind them in terms of primary weapons systems like tanks and planes. We have planned to induct AMCA in the 2030s versus Russia's Su-57 in the 2020s, and we are gonna bring in FRCV in the 2030s versus Armata in the 2020s. They also work with a much bigger capital budget than India, by many times. The Russians have taken the lead globally in introducing next gen weapons so it's not a surprise they have taken the lead with the Su-57 and Armata.

 

[TARGET]

View attachment 17005

Why can't DRDO develop NGMBT under SP model with private player like ATAGS. I don't think armata is going to come, this bullshit is being repeated since last ten years.

Yeah T 14 is so advanced that Russians themselves are not using it.

Agree, It's time to call all the private player to build our own product.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Why can't DRDO develop NGMBT under SP model with private player like ATAGS. I don't think armata is going to come, this bullshit is being repeated since last ten years.

For starters in towed artillery sector by then we had insights into two proven platforms, one the Bofors and another through Kalyani. And Dhanush development had been completed. More or less ATAGS is having improvements. It's not next generation.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

one European

The one I know is about the French German joint effort. But in that too the crew doesn't have it's seperate compartment like in T14. The RFI seems to be tailor made to suite the T14. Even the words high calibre gun. Hinting towards the 152mm guns Russians are experimenting.

All in all its like openly declaring that we need T14 in 2030, so you have got 7-8 years to work out the defects and fine tune the machine before we order a big enough chunk.

I would have been happier if the timeline was 5 years advanced.

But now all I pary is that DRDO gets it act together and gets a smoothbore canon , the promised more powerful engine and a full fledged self protection suite in Arjun MK2.

With VT-4 in Paks Inventory, a mature Arjun MK2 by 2025 will be a winnable case.

 

[randomradio]

The one I know is about the French German joint effort. But in that too the crew doesn't have it's seperate compartment like in T14.

What you're refering to is the Leclerc-Leopard frankenstein. The actual design phase is expected to finish only in 2024.

The RFI seems to be tailor made to suite the T14. Even the words high calibre gun. Hinting towards the 152mm guns Russians are experimenting.

Everybody is working on high calibre guns.

All in all its like openly declaring that we need T14 in 2030, so you have got 7-8 years to work out the defects and fine tune the machine before we order a big enough chunk.

I would have been happier if the timeline was 5 years advanced.

Don't worry. This program is unrealistic for just 7 years. Their only choice will be license production by then. But the IA won't get a custom design or the IP for it. Even the Franco-German tank is expected only after 2035. I'm not expecting anything concrete for the IA until 2035 at the minimum.

I'm actually expecting a follow-on contract of T-90s after 2025, in order to keep the production line going.

But now all I pary is that DRDO gets it act together and gets a smoothbore canon , the promised more powerful engine and a full fledged self protection suite in Arjun MK2.

With VT-4 in Paks Inventory, a mature Arjun MK2 by 2025 will be a winnable case.

If the Arjun Mk2 is developed, then a small order can be placed for it until the FRCV becomes available. But that's still unrealistic considering it's DRDO, and the Mk2 isn't just a simple modification like the Mk1A. Frankly, the DRDO-OFB complex has only come out with shoddy systems one after the other. You may be impressed by the Arjun, but people always forget that in the end it's an OFB product. Even a good product will be destroyed in their hands. And by the time it's in the IA's hands, quality control would have gone for a toss because they cheap out during production. It's simple actually, while the prototypes may clears trials, the production version is not necessarily built to the same standards as the prototype. OFB is not suitable for indigenous products, they are only suitable for license production where foreign OEMs at least try and maintain some levels of quality.

There is some room in the Rajasthan sector for some more Arjun Mk1As though, but at twice the cost of the T-90 while delivering pretty much the same capability, that would leave a question mark in terms of how the army handles funds. Plus it's been 10 years and OFB has still not fixed the spares issue plaguing the Arjuns.

 

[Chain Smoker]

DRDO has shown no competence in developing a UCP. They are developing NGMBT as a single tank and not as a family of vehicles. They haven't even attempted at doing this to show competence.

A UCP isn't just a tank, it's about 12+ vehicles all based on the same platform. So the same hull, tracks and engine will power all the vehicles. And the top of the vehicle will be modified for different needs, like a main gun and autoloader on an unmanned turret for a tank; a small rapid fire gun, ATGMs and a passenger compartment for IFV etc. Similarly, there will be a recovery vehicle, ambulance, SPH, bridge layer, APC etc, everything using one single design.



The deal is not for Armata, it's a full R&D deal. Foreign OEMs can offer their currently designed UCPs or even a new design, it's up to them, but all the IP will rest with the Indian partner, so it's unlikely that the Russians will offer the Armata itself. This is not a license production deal.



You seem to be referring to the T-95, which was deemed far too advanced and expensive for induction. Armata's T-14 is a less advanced tank that was born out of fiscal realities of the time, made worse by a 25% cut in the Russian defence budget, followed by stagnation over the last few years, hence the delay in its induction.

But...

Russian Army to get 1st batch of combat vehicles based on Armata platform in 2022

The batch will include T-14 tanks, T-15 infantry fighting vehicles and T-16 armored repair and evacuation hardware, according to the defense chief

tass.com

“In 2022, there are plans to deliver a pilot batch of T-14 tanks, T-15 infantry fighting vehicles, and T-16 armored repair and evacuation hardware to the troops,” Shoigu said.

Inductions are beginning from next year.

The Russian MIC is more advanced than India's so we are 10-15 years behind them in terms of primary weapons systems like tanks and planes. We have planned to induct AMCA in the 2030s versus Russia's Su-57 in the 2020s, and we are gonna bring in FRCV in the 2030s versus Armata in the 2020s. They also work with a much bigger capital budget than India, by many times. The Russians have taken the lead globally in introducing next gen weapons so it's not a surprise they have taken the lead with the Su-57 and Armata.

Bro army is not going to induct heavy APC and IFV based on NGMBT that's why there is separate RFI for FICV regarding rest others they can be easily developed as it has been done with arjun.

 

[Aditya b7777]

DRDO has shown no competence in developing a UCP. They are developing NGMBT as a single tank and not as a family of vehicles. They haven't even attempted at doing this to show competence.

A UCP isn't just a tank, it's about 12+ vehicles all based on the same platform. So the same hull, tracks and engine will power all the vehicles. And the top of the vehicle will be modified for different needs, like a main gun and autoloader on an unmanned turret for a tank; a small rapid fire gun, ATGMs and a passenger compartment for IFV etc. Similarly, there will be a recovery vehicle, ambulance, SPH, bridge layer, APC etc, everything using one single design.

When the DRDO made all the various units of the Arjun family like the SPH, Catapult, Armoured recovery vehicle, BLT,ambulance etc, how many did the Indian army order? After the entire loss of money invested in creating the entire Arjun family’s components, even I wouldn’t create an entire new generation family of armoured vehicles until the Indian Army shows an iota of interest in the main component of the program.

 

[randomradio]

Bro army is not going to induct heavy APC and IFV based on NGMBT that's why there is separate RFI for FICV regarding rest others they can be easily developed as it has been done with arjun.

FICV doesn't have to go into armoured brigades. Armoured brigades handle the offensive into enemy territory, so those will use the UCP, which is the point. The rest can use FICV, since their job is to protect captured territory and do not need as much mobility.

 

[randomradio]

When the DRDO made all the various units of the Arjun family like the SPH, Catapult, Armoured recovery vehicle, BLT,ambulance etc, how many did the Indian army order? After the entire loss of money invested in creating the entire Arjun family’s components, even I wouldn’t create an entire new generation family of armoured vehicles until the Indian Army shows an iota of interest in the main component of the program.

Arjun was a failure, not as a tank, but as the army's spear. What's the point in buying a tank that cannot be used in enemy territory?

Now, all it can do is protect the country's border within our own territory, ie, as a defensive system. Hence its deployment in Rajasthan.

The army pushed for its cancellation in the early 90s and wanted to start a new homegrown program, but DRDO did not want to end the Arjun. After a point the Pakistanis had made it impossible for heavy tanks to operate inside their territory, so the Arjun became useless even before its field testing began.

Pakistan-Defense Canals in South Punjab and Sindh-1 (Sulemanki-Fort Abbas)

A. Introduction Bambanwala Ravi Bedian Link Canal (BRB Canal), better known as Ichhogil Canal, is synonymous with the 1965 Indo-Pa...

vatsrohit.blogspot.com

Now the army is looking for amphibious tanks through the FRCV to navigate Pak's canals. Whether that plan will succeed or not is a different story.

Always remember, the army is supreme, not DRDO and definitely not OFB.

 

[Hydra]

Arjun was a failure, not as a tank, but as the army's spear. What's the point in buying a tank that cannot be used in enemy territory?

Now, all it can do is protect the country's border within our own territory, ie, as a defensive system. Hence its deployment in Rajasthan.

The army pushed for its cancellation in the early 90s and wanted to start a new homegrown program, but DRDO did not want to end the Arjun. After a point the Pakistanis had made it impossible for heavy tanks to operate inside their territory, so the Arjun became useless even before its field testing began.

Pakistan-Defense Canals in South Punjab and Sindh-1 (Sulemanki-Fort Abbas)

A. Introduction Bambanwala Ravi Bedian Link Canal (BRB Canal), better known as Ichhogil Canal, is synonymous with the 1965 Indo-Pa...

vatsrohit.blogspot.com

Now the army is looking for amphibious tanks through the FRCV to navigate Pak's canals. Whether that plan will succeed or not is a different story.

Always remember, the army is supreme, not DRDO and definitely not OFB.

Means , virtually we cannot invade Pakistan as of now?