Future Combat Vehicle Programs (FRCV and FICV)

Milspec said:
Chinese tanks are even cheaper than that, Maybe India should try for those?
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Sarcasm aside, their latest export tank, VT-4, is actually very good.

What separates it from the T-90 is the new 1500HP engine along with an automatic transmission. And a gun with a new autoloader that does not have the Indian T-90's deficiencies in terms of carrying longer rods. It basically sits between the T-90S and T-90MS. But it's more expensive than the T-90S.

Against the Arjun Mk1, pretty much everything on the VT-4 is better. Against the Arjun Mk1A, the VT-4 is inferior. But the Arjun Mk1A is more expensive.
 
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randomradio said:
You can drop the sir, there's no need to use it on me.

Apart from expensive imports, there is also the case of production inefficiences, which is pretty common within PSUs. Plus the tank being bigger and heavier also requires more raw materials.

Some of the core technologies going into the Arjun are far superior to the T-90, like the new automatic transmission system and of course the advanced suspension, so these things can jack up the price a bit. In terms of electronics, the Arjun carries a radar, which can jack up costs by at least half a mil, this is something the T-90 is yet to be equipped with, along with an EW suite. So you can say that a million to a million and a half of the Arjun's price also consists of some capabilities that the T-90 lacks.
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Let's say if Telsa only built 250 vehicles in their Burbank facility for this decade, would the unit price still be the same? you do know how Capital is distributed.
One of the biggest reasons for Arjun's high price tag is its poor order book.
 
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Milspec said:
5 bucks says, if Elbit stops sending over key components, pretty soon there will be a new project to "upgrade" the FCS...get the drift.
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Which key components lol only critical component in FCS is it's software. Rest of the hardware is made by private companies.
 
Chain Smoker said:
Which key components lol only critical component in FCS is it's software. Rest of the hardware is made by private companies.
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Which components? thermal imager, aux day sight, (reliable) Servo motors, daq with analog and dc i/o, accelerometers, Housing for the two axes stabilised sight mount, mill spec barrel connectors and harness, some micro controller that would actually integrate all this into a working system with the main gun and targetting software that will not crap out at high ambient temps. I would say it's more than just the software. And if it was as simple as private companies making all the components and BEL (for heaven's sake) writing "software" in the 30 odd years of Arjun project pretty sure the first 124 would end up getting an Elbit and then a Sagem FCS.
 
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Milspec said:
Let's say if Telsa only built 250 vehicles in their Burbank facility for this decade, would the unit price still be the same? you do know how Capital is distributed.
One of the biggest reasons for Arjun's high price tag is its poor order book.
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A larger order book won't reduced prices by half instantly.
 
Milspec said:
Which components? thermal imager, aux day sight, (reliable) Servo motors, daq with analog and dc i/o, accelerometers, Housing for the two axes stabilised sight mount, mill spec barrel connectors and harness, some micro controller that would actually integrate all this into a working system with the main gun and targetting software that will not crap out at high ambient temps. I would say it's more than just the software. And if it was as simple as private companies making all the components and BEL (for heaven's sake) writing "software" in the 30 odd years of Arjun project pretty sure the first 124 would end up getting an Elbit and then a Sagem FCS.
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All of the above said components have been Indigenised. BTW BEL is not involved it's cvrde, irde and tata power sed.
 
Milspec said:
ummm... everyone


Go to any government-run establishment. Parle G khao khud jaan jao.
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Till date none of the allegations had proved in court except Tehelka, even much celebrated Bofors scam proved to be a bluff or just an allegation. Untill you prove these allegations with evidence in court, all these allegations & scams are just either a political circus or a sour grape mentality.

Our military is the ultimate user of these toys, if they found any particular item is not suitable for them, we need to beleive them. First of all any flaw in weapon will costs them life and for us a military victory in case of a war.
 
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Hydra said:
Till date none of the allegations had proved in court except Tehelka, even much celebrated Bofors scam proved to be a bluff or just an allegation. Untill you prove these allegations with evidence in court, all these allegations & scams are just either a political circus or a sour grape mentality.

Our military is the ultimate user of these toys, if they found any particular item is not suitable for them, we need to beleive them. First of all any flaw in weapon will costs them life and for us a military victory in case of a war.
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:ROFLMAO:
 
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randomradio said:
A larger order book won't reduced prices by half instantly.
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Depends on what goes into capital and overheads, if your total overhead and capital is 100 based on how you capitilize your asset, say your cost of capital will be 10 rs distributed on 10 units you produce, so just cost due to capitilization is 10rs built into the price of the product, if you built 100 units, cost of capital built into price would be 1rs, if you built 1000 unit it would 0.1 rs.
It just depends how the price structure is setup. For sure the line, facility and the supply chain was not setup for 120 odd batch volume. It's a *censored*ing tank for gods sake.
 
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Milspec said:
Depends on what goes into capital and overheads, if your total overhead and capital is 100 based on how you capitilize your asset, say your cost of capital will be 10 rs distributed on 10 units you produce, so just cost due to capitilization is 10rs built into the price of the product, if you built 100 units, cost of capital built into price would be 1rs, if you built 1000 unit it would 0.1 rs.
It just depends how the price structure is setup. For sure the line, facility and the supply chain was not setup for 120 odd batch volume. It's a *censored*ing tank for gods sake.
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Okay, so you are seriously suggesting that the greatest pen-pushers and penny-pinchers in the country have created a production line that defies logic?

Let me give you an example with HAL. When LCA was ordered, it was only for 40 jets in two separate contracts. For a 40-jet order, the HAL did not create a 40/year production line, but an 8/year production line. So the entire production cycle of these 40 jets, including delays would be 8-9 years. During this time, the production line would deliver all these jets with a moderately high efficiency, as they have been doing to date. Now, with doubling of orders to 83 jets and doubling the size of the production line, the HAL will now deliver 16 jets a year, with a pretty comfortable 8-9 year production cycle. Do you really think the HAL is being inefficient here?

OFB doesn't have a magically large production line for the Arjun, it's just 25-30 tanks a year. At this rate, the production cycle for 120 tanks would be similar to HAL's LCA, ie, a minimum of 8 years to deliver all the tanks. So the small production line is working at a pretty high efficiency. They did not set up some 200/year line with unrealistic expectations. All expansions production lines are based on the size of the order placed. And OFB's Arjun line is pretty efficient for its size, no different from HAL's 8/year LCA line.

The only economies of scale expected is with large orders so technologies that are currently being imported can be license produced in India, hence it can reduce some costs. That's about it. The Arjun has practically achieved economies of scale with the delivery of the first 124 tanks. The only cost savings expected is from indigenisation of imports. And long term cost reduction is irrelevant to the armed forces, it will only reflect in the balance sheet of companies and not in the contract itself. The 8300+ Cr the IA is paying for the 118 Mk1As is pretty much the best price they can get, it will only get higher from here onwards.
 
Chain Smoker said:
Dude minimum of 500 units are required to cover the cost .
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Nope. That's for import substitution. OFB wanted an order of 500 tanks so that they can bring in license production of the engine and transmission from Germany. This covering cost, break even etc stories were just excuses. The MoD/IA were not dumb enough to believe that. Instead GoI poured more money to develop our own engine and transmission. Both are now available for the Mk1A.
Chain Smoker said:
Seems like army has completely gone mad.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1400839685266628610
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The opposite. It's a good idea to get DRDO to compete. This is probably what the IA meant when they said DRDO should continue developing the NGMBT.

Weirdly, I don't see Japan in the list.

But at least this signals that SPM is going ahead as planned, along with the P-75I.
 
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