India makes and overhauls Al31FP (Al31FP is Al31F with TVC nozzle).
The specifications can be understood by trial and error. Since we make all the parts ourselves, we can change the parts one by one and find the effect and instability. For example, change the angle of blades and check the noise increase. Then we can tweak the compressor and so on. Reverse engineering and learning backwards is much easier and faster. Also, the already existing design helps in validation of theories.
Ability to build engines is not just mechanical manufacturing of parts. Processes like powder welding etc comes into play
Hmmm that’s a awesome idea reverse engineering,DRDO should follow this idea for 105kn .is there a copyrights violations ... no ,I don’t think so .lets do it I am with you
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India doesn't have RD33 or Al31F, it is mostly imported as CKD Kits and assembled here, the raw materials, Control Know-hows and metallurgy know how is unknown. Irrespective of what these Engines are, compared to contemporary western Engines they fare poorly in overall reliability and maintenance. Reason The tech is mostly Soviet and the contemporary engines have far lesser maintenance and longer hours of running before they need a partial overhaul, not to mention fuel economy/range.
It is more prudent to have a high thrust to weight ratio engine, but we presently don't have any engine we can make from scratch, need to make one comparable engine with GE F414, for LCA Mk II needs or AMCA.
No One helps for Free, French Help didn't come for free, they have their strategic objectivesand reasons to do so. NO other counrty came forward not even "Friend" Russia even if money was paid to them.
Plausible, but I attribute it more to greed of the previous ruling dissipation, rather than being enemies of the republic.
Russia is not a friend, No one is, all have strategic objectives, everyone mints money from the weakness of another, Russia literally had us eating out of their hands. And there is a history to it, the last ruling dissipation has has bond with the powerful in Russia/Soviet Union since cold war days. There is reaosn our Armament factories went from Manufacturing to just assmebly and year of Tech know how was lost, inlcuding Case point "HAL Marut" for the Mig-21s.
Also, India Doesn't have full ToT of Russian engines. What we have is the Full ToT of the Screwdriver used to assemble them. If we had full ToT we would have made Al31 Turbines with FADC and we would be able tweak it with our needs. I am not Pretending, I know what I am talking about.
Western technology has improved since the 1990s, in metallurgy, maintenece needs, manufacturing processes, Fuel economy, and higher core tempratures for jet Engines. Also Kaveri design philisophy is western and not Soviet/Russian (where our emphasis is more on the overall efficiency of the system at High TWR). Russia has poured zero in R&D since 1990-2013. some R&D learning curve catching up to do for them. EE.g. not one of their engines have FADC.
Mostly agreed, AK Antony Slep like sloth for ten years in MoD and bought overpriced equipement from Russia especially The Vikky and the now Useless Mig29Ks it operates.
When I said Al31F is made in India, I meant that it was made from scratch in India.HAL makes Al31F from raw materials in its koraput branch. I am not sure if RD33. Al31F, however is fully Indian without Russian manufacturing, alloys or any Russian technology used.
No one gives technology for money. Money is a short term tool of transaction. Technology is long term knowledge. France has only 1 strategic objectives- to make India dependent on it. Russia did give India its Al31F and also allowed India to test Kaveri engine in Russia.
What is greed here? How is it greed? The money can be made by taking bribes from private companies too, not necessarily imports. There is no need to import everything.
You know absolutely nothing of what you are talking. India makes Al31F inhouse fully and can independently make any number of Al31F engine needed.
HAL MARUT was suspended but MiG21 wqs fully made in India including engines. USSR gave ToT at Indira Gandhi's request to make MiG21 completely in India.
Russia has made state of the art Al41F engine. Western engines have improved but the engines once made will remain the same. M88 made in 1990 and F414 made around same time has not changed. These are still the same technology and are good engines. Al31F has FADEC and so does the newer Al41F.
The Al31F is 1980s technology and is similar to M53. The newer Al41F is similar to M88. Even Kaveri engine is likely to be of M88 generation but with 2nd generation DS blades to avoid rhenium usage.
First,
Why you think French "strategic" objective is to make India dependent. Are they such naive?
Second,
How India by weapon trade become dependent on them? India France trade is around 10 bn euros, how are you expecting for India to be dependent on France with just armament trade?
How Al41 benefitting us? Russians can make Kugelblitz drive and travel to Sirius, how this benefit us?
Again we never owned IPR ( Intellectual Property Rights) of Al 31.
Neither Russians are so much fool to give us IPR of Al-31. All raw materials, equipments, and even machinery for fabricating the Al-31 came from Russia.
India will be dependent on certain type of critical arms,not completely dependent. France is not naive but scheming snake oil salesmen
Do you think arms trade is so important in overall trade? It is so much profitable that is it require snake oil salesmen? 99% of export that make a country prosperous are normal exports.
Why do you thinking France making arms trade as strategic objective? Without any incentives.
Al41 is the latest engine of Russia and I was only responding to someone else's comment that Russia has not made improvement in engine technology and don't have advanced engine technology as the west. I was only saying that Russia has improved technology.
IPR is not with India but India has all the technology. India will.not be able to legally sell Su30 or its engine to others. But India can make them for domestic use. Also, India can reverse engineer Russian tools and machinery to get Indian equivalent machinery. The know hiw has been obtained and that is tye most critical aspect
Arms sale is the most critical sale. All other goods are non critical and insufficient to cause dependency. It is not about cost but value. Arms sales ensure that tomorrow India falls in trouble, France will have a great leverage to extort from India. Will any country be able to extort by having smartphone sales?
Arms are critical needs and can't be done away with whereas civilian goods can be done away with. So, arms sale creates strategic dependency, not economic dependency and has much higher leverage.
So if tomorrow Russia rename there engines as Al51, that going to alien technology? Just check the TTSL of Al31 and Al41.
So why in past when India was in trouble, during Kargil and again during OP Parakram, why France didnt extort from us.
Afterall that was there "STRATEGIC" objective, did they forgotten there STRATEGIC objective? Must be they are Ghajni.
Russian Al41F has high TWR which makes that next generation compared to Al31F. If you disagree give me TWR of the two.
It was Israeli Litening pods that were delivered quickly. Israel gave the pods used in their own planes to India due to urgency. I Im not sure what help France did. Can you elaborate?
The only thing in the engine is TWR? Okey if this is only about TWR, then again winner is F135. Still, Russians are nowhere even close to match the 8000 hours of TTSL of F135, neither TWR, nor thrust.
And btw neither TWR is a very good feature to compare two engines, the more good feature is to compare TWR of two aircrafts.
Did you hold retrograde amnesia, or you trying to forget that. Whole Mirage 2000 H was French. The whole aircraft, with 2 wings and 1 rudder.
F135 uses special type of compressor and turbine technology with something like counter revolution blades (I do not fully remember). F135 is the only engine better than Al41F. But F135 is also bulky due to the new technology and hence may not be used by PAk-FA. So, except for F135, Al41f is one of the highest TWR engine. TWR of engine shows the technology level but TWR of a plane only shows design. F35 has average TWR, for example though F135 has the best TWR due to design intent.
About Kargil war, India already had Mirage 2000 qnd France did not supply any new plane on immediate basis.
RD-33 is only used in Mig 29Ks and the lovely smoke trail it leaves. can tell you tons about it's combustion efficiency, over all Life is 4000 flight ours. The most Comparable Engine is GE 404 adn its average flight hours life is about 6,500 hours.
I'll come to AL31FP the one which is assembled there and manufacture of what you are calling "from scratch" doesn't happen there.
Tell me lad, (this I have got to hear), by certifying an Indian Engine which will be made from scratch In India, How has France made itself dependent on India ? and how has Russia by taking over our entire Arsenal from Navy to Army to Air Force made us more independent and self sufficient ? Almost all equipment are made to Russian was requrements and are not even modified to suit our needs. Imagine a simple Car seller doing that, Impossible isn't it ? and we are talking about the state of SU-30 air frames issues, Mig29K fiasco, T90s whioch are in every way inferior to the Al-Khalids and were unusable in the conditions that we have here. Hell they won't even let us upgrade SU-30 With new Avionics and all. Some awesome Friend. I mean you have to be really Naive to think Nations have friendships they have coinciding interests that makes them coperate. That Geopolitics 101. you cannot see National Realtions in as an equivalent of Human relationships, that is daft.
Now Do you know what ToT means ? It means transfer of the technology in full, like blue prints and tech and manufacturing technologies involved etc, and the liberty to use those the way we please, augment it, modify it and tweak it the way we please, Russia has not given us anything. Alll strings are attched from Morcow, the Raw Materials and alloys are sourced from Russia and are Cut and welded together like Lego, till very recently. Also every Russian AL31FP made here get Russia a good royalty. In Full ToT there is no case of Royaty. The tech is sold. Hook Line and Sinker.
I know exactly what I am talking about, but if that were the case why did Kavery development take place the awesome Al41F was already coming .. no ?
You are Championing a foreign AIrcraft over a Domestic one? Are you serious ? We lost a an entire genration of of dometic Aerospace experts that we has mede, Mif 21 was an Import from every sense of the word. Mig 21 spares were all getting imported till 2008 and we had full manufacturing, we wouldn't have lost pillots to faulty Russians pares, That is awesome logic right there.
This is not the point The Russians can make warp drive. If they Wish. Kaveri is not of the M88 Design two very diffent engine as both operate on completely different combustion cycles and operation modes. Kavery Comes Close to GE 414, Not M88.
Over and out.
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RD33 is something I am not sure about. Keep it out of discussion. Let us come to Al31F.
Don't fool everyone by implying certification to be assistance. Certification is different from assistance. India could certify the engine by itself. But French certification holds value for export as France, USA and Russia are 3 countries good in aero engine manufacturing. So, their experience will be respected across the world
India can make entire engine in India from raw materia without any import of processed material and that is called ToT. You can put your wierd definition with yourself.
HAL does not bother about mining as it is not a mining company. So, I am.9nly speaking of manufacturing. The raw material is called raw material, not processed alloy as it has no technology involved in it. India can get them from India or Africa or anywhere else. India has made a contract to import raw material for current order. Future order may not be the same. Su30 avionica was Israeli which has now been indigenised with HAL-SAMTEL avionics. Russia has allowed India to make the avionics, integrate its own weapons like astra. Even the BARS radar has Indian processor and probably made in India.
If this is not ToT but you imaginary fantasy is ToT, I can't help.
Russia is not giving Al41F. Russia gave the older Al31F but the newer one is proprietary. Russia will help India make it by providing consultancy but you are expecting too much by asking for entire state of the art technology from Russia. Friendship has limits. Do you intend to share your wife with yoir friend, for example?
MiG21 were made in India in 1970s. Russia discontinued the MiG21 early 2000s. The spare problem was not the main problem buy older air frame was
We got Certification, and a technical Audit, we did't get any assistance. Not By anyone. Neither Russia Nor France.
I was more interested inyour argument that by performing this Audit and helping in Certification how is France is undermining us and making us dependent on them?
the Point is if Russia stiill has strings and we will need to bow to Moscow to fulfill our requirements and seek their permission to make changes as per our wish, that is not full liberty. That is where and what dependency is. We being dependednt on Russsia. You seem to be all right with it.
Curious Did Russia "allow" Indian FADC system on the AL31FP ?
AL41F is not even close to operationalization it is being speculated that it will be by 2020 and without any specifics out, I'll still consider it under development. Also, I did make a Point that AL41F was not a part of the discussion. Again Russsia is not a Friend. Don't bring human relationships in Diplomatic and strategic relations not how the world works. Russia acts in its interests, otherwise it wouldn't have "allowed" China to copy its designs, It struck a Deal and got some moeny for it as The Chinese had already copied their tech.
Think if Russia will "allow" us tweaking the SU 30 airframe according our needs, nope. Point is we will always need to depend on Russia "allowing" us.
Stopping of the HAL Marut program destroyed our Design and development knowlegebase and the Human resource, We lost Decades of progress if the project was even kept alive some how, we had literally no indigenous foundation when Tejas program began. And we were totally dependent on Russia fro Mig 21s. China went Ahead and amde the JF 17 out of it... could we? Would our Russian masters have allowed?
I am speaking of the assistance of developing new Safranised Kaveri which is a french ploy to make India dependent. India refused and only limited it to certification. Certification is not a help but mere formal acceptance of quality. It is like getting a 10 standard certification after studying at home and applying for examination.
India can independently make Al31F engine and even avionics of Su30. Even the current contract is merely temporary measure and is purely dependent on trust rather than absolute leverage. Russia has given India the complete technology by just TRUSTING India.
HAL MARUT was stopped for better MiG21. India should have continued development of the plane but from MiG21, not MARUT. MiG21 was better than Marut in every manner and it would be prudent to continue development of the plane as an improvement over MiG21, not MARUT. It was not under Russian influence that India stopped development of new plane. In fact, immediately after MiG21 ToT was obtained, in 1983 India planned Tejas plane. The political instabilities caused the disruption
I straightaway call bullshit on that one. Could you point me out to the source of this quote ? I can't find anything on trishul.
Excellent point, although that is not REALLY why India has gone for french certification.
My instinct says that this was a move to quell all those opposed to the Kaveri ultimately running on Tejas and beyond. So that more money can be poured in, not a reduced budget. Excellent move by Modi government. See, this is how we know that make in india was not just a slogan for some at least in the government. R&D is the basis of MII.
This was for us, we were the audience. whatever is the value of the french certificate is, only we care. no body else cares. french did it cause it gave them money. and they are not exactly an US to us, if you know what I mean. France has stood by us in trying times.
the export value of this certificate is not really applicable in real life as the development of the export version of Kaveri will take another 10 years to be absolutely honest. and it will not be this version anyway. so this certification is for us. Indians. for those who have silently acted on the opposite of success and for those who get a wrinkled nose when someone talks about making this our own high performance engine in our own high performance jet. Yes, the top brass of IAF, this is for you. Chew on this certificate. It's french.