GTRE Kaveri Engine

Unnamed said:
Excellent point, although that is not REALLY why India has gone for french certification.

My instinct says that this was a move to quell all those opposed to the Kaveri ultimately running on Tejas and beyond. So that more money can be poured in, not a reduced budget. Excellent move by Modi government. See, this is how we know that make in india was not just a slogan for some at least in the government. R&D is the basis of MII.

This was for us, we were the audience. whatever is the value of the french certificate is, only we care. no body else cares. french did it cause it gave them money. and they are not exactly an US to us, if you know what I mean. France has stood by us in trying times.

the export value of this certificate is not really applicable in real life as the development of the export version of Kaveri will take another 10 years to be absolutely honest. and it will not be this version anyway. so this certification is for us. Indians. for those who have silently acted on the opposite of success and for those who get a wrinkled nose when someone talks about making this our own high performance engine in our own high performance jet. Yes, the top brass of IAF, this is for you. Chew on this certificate. It's french.
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Do you know that the certification of flight envelope is done after development abd not before? So, there is no need for you to be too honest about development time of Kaveri. Certification means that Kaveri is fit to fly. What will remain is further tests, user trial etc and not development time.

I have told before and I am telling again that Kaveri will be at least as good as Al31F if not better in TWR. So, the Kaveri can be expected to have TWR of 8+. Hence its thrust is likely to be 100-105kN. There may not be 10 year another engine development either as twin 100-105kN engine is enough for 25 tonne AMCA
 
pachawry said:
I am speaking of the assistance of developing new Safranised Kaveri which is a french ploy to make India dependent. India refused and only limited it to certification. Certification is not a help but mere formal acceptance of quality. It is like getting a 10 standard certification after studying at home and applying for examination.

India can independently make Al31F engine and even avionics of Su30. Even the current contract is merely temporary measure and is purely dependent on trust rather than absolute leverage. Russia has given India the complete technology by just TRUSTING India.


HAL MARUT was stopped for better MiG21. India should have continued development of the plane but from MiG21, not MARUT. MiG21 was better than Marut in every manner and it would be prudent to continue development of the plane as an improvement over MiG21, not MARUT. It was not under Russian influence that India stopped development of new plane. In fact, immediately after MiG21 ToT was obtained, in 1983 India planned Tejas plane. The political instabilities caused the disruption
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Agreed on all points, Other than Russia being Benign, domestic design and development should have never been stopped. Also, there are many strings in the Su 30 deal. You are saying that the sourcing of raw materials is just a part of contract, I don't think it is so.

Anyway, any info on why the plug on Super Sukhois development was pulled ? or is it still on the Cards?
 
Ashutosh said:
Agreed on all points, Other than Russia being Benign, domestic design and development should have never been stopped. Also, there are many strings in the Su 30 deal. You are saying that the sourcing of raw materials is just a part of contract, I don't think it is so.

Anyway, any info on why the plug on Super Sukhois development was pulled ? or is it still on the Cards?
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The super sukhoi is still on the cards. But the new Al41F which is the main component of the upgrade may not get full ToT to India.
 
pachawry said:
The super sukhoi is still on the cards. But the new Al41F which is the main component of the upgrade may not get full ToT to India.
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AL41F for Su 30s Upgrade to Super Sukhoi. That is news!! I had info it was only about the Flight Control Upgrade, Airframe Upgrade, Greater Composite use, few design Changes and Complete Avionics upgrade/overhaul with 4 way redundancy in FBW system. The Engine was supposed to remain same with and Indian FADEC system.
 
Ashutosh said:
Current Core is Kabini, which has been certified for flight trilas and testing. M88 has not been used, Safranised Kaveri is dead.
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correct. The first stage is to certify and test fly existing Kaveri engine with Indian Kabini core fit for TET of about 1450*C. There are 3 prototypes of Kaveri with various thrust ratings starting from 40/65 to 54/85 KN. All these engines are 100% Indian designs. The M88 core will come in K10 prototype of Kaveri.
 
vstol Jockey said:
correct. The first stage is to certify and test fly existing Kaveri engine with Indian Kabini core fit for TET of about 1450*C. There are 3 prototypes of Kaveri with various thrust ratings starting from 40/65 to 54/85 KN. All these engines are 100% Indian designs. The M88 core will come in K10 prototype of Kaveri.
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Sir, about the, Kaveri and the M88 in general, The M88 is much smaller and lighter by almost 300kgs. wouldn't the different core as in K10 result in a totally different Engine, wish completely different performance ?
 
pachawry said:
Do you know that the certification of flight envelope is done after development abd not before? So, there is no need for you to be too honest about development time of Kaveri. Certification means that Kaveri is fit to fly. What will remain is further tests, user trial etc and not development time.
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what has that got to do with anything ? this, my dear fellow, is the basis of the product called Kaveri. Rest assured we will not easily see this being exported, just because it will be sensitive technology. Do you know what the arms sellers, i mean countries like US, Russis and China do ? they sell stuff which is AT LEAST a generation behind in the latest they themselves are developing for their future. the only exceptions are the European countries like France Sweden who have the know how to compete against the best of the best in the world. their USP is to be alternative to the US stuff.

what I'm trying to say is that, this Kaveri design will not be exported in another 10 years. this will be modified to be better and a complete enough product to go into Tejas. Tejas then will have the next iteration called Mk1. That will have this or the another version of the Kaveri, modified with maybe the M88-2 core and it will be lighter and with greater wet thrust. THAT version ONWARDS (Tejas Mk1 Kaveri) will have another export version. THAT might need a french certificate from the french. But guess what If India can operate 10 squadrons of Tejas with the Kaveri in it and prove it on paper that it is a very low maintenance engine, for just 3 years, just 3 years..We will never need any certificate for anyone and people will buy the Tejas on merit. Like they are doing with Gripen today. of course the same story will apply to uttam...it will become a GaN radar and will have an export version. like Kaveri. We'll put all of it into Tejas and it's iterations.

In my opinion, this certification thing could have been avoided. Even if Kaveri gets an M88 core, what we need to do is invest more money and resources into making the Kabini core better than the 90's M88. This certification is for those who needed proof about Kabini cored Kaveri.

pachawry said:
I have told before and I am telling again that Kaveri will be at least as good as Al31F if not better in TWR. So, the Kaveri can be expected to have TWR of 8+. Hence its thrust is likely to be 100-105kN. There may not be 10 year another engine development either as twin 100-105kN engine is enough for 25 tonne AMCA
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I really do not think so. You're hoping so, I believe.
 
vstol Jockey said:
correct. The first stage is to certify and test fly existing Kaveri engine with Indian Kabini core fit for TET of about 1450*C. There are 3 prototypes of Kaveri with various thrust ratings starting from 40/65 to 54/85 KN. All these engines are 100% Indian designs. The M88 core will come in K10 prototype of Kaveri.
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How is Kaveri having just 54\85kN engine? Isn't the weight of Kaveri much higher than F404\F414? Even RD33 has higher TWR. It is unlikely that India will develop such an inferior engine instead of making the already existent RD33.

Again, Tejas MK2 is 17.5tonne MToW which is impossible if the engine for it doesn't have 100-105kN thrust. Also, going by AMCA specifications, 25tonne MToW makes it a suitable candidate for twin engine 100-105kN thrust with super maneuverability and super cruise. It appears that AMCA and Tejas MK2 have been made to be used with same engine.

Are you by chance considering flat rating to reduce the thrust from 100kN to 85kN? Because, flat rating is not a meaningful concept. It reduces the thrust for take off. Also, turbofan engines are designed to give highest efficiency at maximum thrust and flat rating will reduce the efficiency. Flat rating is likely to be scrapped.
 
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Ashutosh said:
AL41F for Su 30s Upgrade to Super Sukhoi. That is news!! I had info it was only about the Flight Control Upgrade, Airframe Upgrade, Greater Composite use, few design Changes and Complete Avionics upgrade/overhaul with 4 way redundancy in FBW system. The Engine was supposed to remain same with and Indian FADEC system.
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Airframe can't be upgraded as that will make it new plane. Introduction of composite will change centre if gravity and the balance of plane. Avionics upgrade is definitely part if the upgrade but that is likely to remain Indian (Indian HAL-SAMTEL avionics have replaced Israeli ones in current Su30).

The Al41F engine is similar in dimensions to Al31F engine but with higher thrust due to better metallurgy.
 
Ashutosh said:
Sir, about the, Kaveri and the M88 in general, The M88 is much smaller and lighter by almost 300kgs. wouldn't the different core as in K10 result in a totally different Engine, wish completely different performance ?
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As I said, the present Kaveri will be called K9 as its thrust will be close to 90KN. The present weight of kaveri is 1150 kgs or thereabout. It is in same weight class as RD33 but with better thrust and performance compared to RD33. It was for this reasons that Russians are willing to replace RD33 in Mig-35 by Kaveri engine if Mig-35 is chosen as a part of new RFP for IAF jets.
The engine with M88 core will be completely new engine which will derive lot of technology including variable cycle tech of kaveri. The present kaveri itself has a far superior fan and HP compressor section and by suitable changing the pressure ratios between various stages by using advanced and lighter materials, we can increase the thurst of Kaveri to about 110KN in afterburning thrust and about 75KN in dry thrust for ISA conditions.
pachawry said:
How is Kaveri having just 54\85kN engine? Isn't the weight of Kaveri much higher than F404\F414? Even RD33 has higher TWR. It is unlikely that India will develop such an inferior engine instead of making the already existent RD33.

Again, Tejas MK2 is 17.5tonne MToW which is impossible if the engine for it doesn't have 100-105kN thrust. Also, going by AMCA specifications, 25tonne MToW makes it a suitable candidate for twin engine 100-105kN thrust with super maneuverability and super cruise. It appears that AMCA and Tejas MK2 have been made to be used with same engine.

Are you by chance considering flat rating to reduce the thrust from 100kN to 85kN? Because, flat rating is not a meaningful concept. It reduces the thrust for take off. Also, turbofan engines are designed to give highest efficiency at maximum thrust and flat rating will reduce the efficiency. Flat rating is likely to be scrapped.
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I have read many of your posts but in nearly each and every post you forgot that Kaveri 54/85 is for a 13% derate for ISA+25*C conditions. I hope with this you will be able to calculate the ISA condition thrust of Kaveri and inform us if F414/404 are better or inferior to Kaveri.

Please enlighten yourself with the M53 engine specs and you will realise that M2K goes easily with that engine with an MTOW of 17 tons. Once you do the exercise about Kaveri which I asked you to do, you will get many of your doubts cleared automatically.
 
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Unnamed said:
Do you know what the arms sellers, i mean countries like US, Russis and China do ? they sell stuff which is AT LEAST a generation behind in the latest they themselves are developing for their future
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M88 is the best engine France has. Even EJ200 is the best engine of UK. Russia has sold Su35 with Al41F engine to China and is offering to India.

So, it is incorrect to say that no one gives the latest technology to others. They just don't give ToT of latest technology
 
vstol Jockey said:
M88 core will be completely new engine which will derive lot of technology including variable cycle tech of kaveri.
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M88 core is made with 3rd or 2nd generation SCB which is a problem for India. France has access to rhenium mines of friendly countries like USA and Chile but India does not. So, relying on exotic metals will mean that India will not be able to indigenise the M88 core even if India gets the technology done. The mass manufacturing is almost impossible. The total rhenium production in the world is 45tons. I am very sceptical about M88 core.
vstol Jockey said:
Kaveri 54/85 is for a 13% derate for ISA+25*C conditions
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The thrust comes to 61\96 kN thrust. This is an improvement of 14% over F404 which may not be enough to power 17.5ton Tejas Mk2. Current 54\84kN engine has MToW of 13.5-14tons. 14% increase will mean 15.5-16 ton MTOW. Also F414 has 58\98kN at 1110kG weight. F414 is better than Kaveri by 6% weight
 
pachawry said:
M88 core is made with 3rd or 2nd generation SCB which is a problem for India. France has access to rhenium mines of friendly countries like USA and Chile but India does not. So, relying on exotic metals will mean that India will not be able to indigenise the M88 core even if India gets the technology done. The mass manufacturing is almost impossible. The total rhenium production in the world is 45tons. I am very sceptical about M88 core.

The thrust comes to 61\96 kN thrust. This is an improvement of 14% over F404 which may not be enough to power 17.5ton Tejas Mk2. Current 54\84kN engine has MToW of 13.5-14tons. 14% increase will mean 15.5-16 ton MTOW. Also F414 has 58\98kN at 1110kG weight. F414 is better than Kaveri by 6% weight
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The correct figures for kaveri in ISA conditions are 62.5/98KN. while M53 is 64/95 KN thrust.
 
Unnamed said:
If we had asked Snecma to replace the kabini core with the M88 core, then I would have appreciated real transfer of technology, I would have written Thank you, France. But I did not write that. Because that did not happen.
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Are we so sure?
It's a clear and without any back thought question. Is the Safraniszd Kaveri built with M88 components ore not?
 
pachawry said:
M88 is 75kN engine and it has smaller size. It is impossible to fit in M88 core in 2 years and make Kaveri engine. So, the timeline itself makes it clear that M88 core is not used and it is original core itself
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There isn't one M88 core.
There are 3 cores :
One for the 75Kn engine (on full production).
One for the 90Kn engine (tested on bench) => This one could serve on KaveriM ???
One for the 105Kn (never a single component ever produce)
 
pachawry said:
India makes and overhauls Al31FP (Al31FP is Al31F with TVC nozzle).

The specifications can be understood by trial and error. Since we make all the parts ourselves, we can change the parts one by one and find the effect and instability. For example, change the angle of blades and check the noise increase. Then we can tweak the compressor and so on. Reverse engineering and learning backwards is much easier and faster. Also, the already existing design helps in validation of theories.

Ability to build engines is not just mechanical manufacturing of parts. Processes like powder welding etc comes into play
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Look the china way.....
Reverse engineering is mastered by china since decades. And they are not fully autonom on fighter engine yet .....
 
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