GTRE Kaveri Engine

When you BS at least take time to come up with some source. Would you? GTX37-14U first ran in 1977. They know very well what they are getting in to by 1986 when it was proposed.

First Kabani core ran in 1995. Did they make it out of thin air without any funding? 'evaluating the technical performance' what does that even mean ?

Why do you have to comment on every subject under the sun, when you miss basics of it?

Let me give you more context: By 1980s, India was already making R25 engines for MiG21 Bison. So, the technology of older engines were already present. The GTX37 was a 2nd or 3rd generation engine which did not get completed. India already made R25 from ToT and hence this engine was no longer needed. The first run of the engine may have happened in 1977 but that is irrelevant as the project was shut down without even being half completed.

The political instability of 1989-1991 and then the collapse of USSR in 1991 had made the funds dry out and the funds sanctioned in 1989 was only on paper and the sanctioning was insifficient. In 1995, they brought back the older engine GTX37 project and ran it just to do some show. But the run was not a success. The Kabini core of 1995 was not the core we have today. It was completely different and was hastily made. The 1995 run was actually done out of thin air by bringing back the older engine from the storage room.

By "evaluating technical performance" I meant to exclude delays caused by political bottlenecks like fund crunch, delays in clearance to facility constructions etc and only include the timelines of the project when scientists had free hand and plenty of funding for evaluation of timeline
 
Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets

While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.

As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.


Greater thrust needed

However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

@Aashish @vstol Jockey @randomradio
 
This is just ridiculous, I thought Safran promised the air-worthy engine by 2018 end. Till now they have only submitted in report that Kaveri can be upgraded. "Abe ye to hume bhi pata tha":mad::mad:

Safran-GTRE could just end up being one more failed collaboration if we are not careful. MK1A is round the corner and Safran is playing game with us. Once we start manufacturing MK1A i.e. by 2021 with GE-404, then we'll have to stick to the same config, changing the jet to new engine will be cumbersome task and expensive as well.

And "10,000 Cr" just for jet engine !!! And that to even after wasting 10-15 years in developing K-6 to K-10? I say crash one Mig-29 & Rafale, take their engines out, reverse engineer both of them. Nobody will ever know from which engine we copied our Kaveri from.
 
This is just ridiculous, I thought Safran promised the air-worthy engine by 2018 end. Till now they have only submitted in report that Kaveri can be upgraded. "Abe ye to hume bhi pata tha":mad::mad:

Safran-GTRE could just end up being one more failed collaboration if we are not careful. MK1A is round the corner and Safran is playing game with us. Once we start manufacturing MK1A i.e. by 2021 with GE-404, then we'll have to stick to the same config, changing the jet to new engine will be cumbersome task and expensive as well.

And "10,000 Cr" just for jet engine !!! And that to even after wasting 10-15 years in developing K-6 to K-10? I say crash one Mig-29 & Rafale, take their engines out, reverse engineer both of them. Nobody will ever know from which engine we copied our Kaveri from.

You cannot reverse engineer technical expertise or manufacturing tech, the design is there but its specific parts needs a thorough knowledge of metallurgy, machining and QA. and ther are whole lot of control systems and physics at play. So Nope not as simple as one would think, also Rs. 10,000 crs for jet engine tech is pocket change.

Let me explain with an Analogy... Pakistan has thousands of cars on its roads and invariably numerous of them crash, still pak cannot reverse engineer a car even though it requires a vey low level of tech. why is that ?
 
I say crash one Mig-29 & Rafale, take their engines out, reverse engineer both of them. Nobody will ever know from which engine we copied our Kaveri from.
LOL
Is indian metallurgy able to mimic such high temperature alloys ? NO
And there are some things you can't copy and paste : software inside the Fadec for exemple. Unreadable without the proper access.

To open a RD33 or M88 with no more know how is like to give all the pieces of a watch to an octopus.
 
To open a RD33 or M88 with no more know how is like to give all the pieces of a watch to an octopus.

this! please give this guy a medal.

wonderful analogy. it takes generations or at least decades of hard work to get the expertise. if it was as simple as reverse engineering everything, China would have matched Russia's engines (they still cant).
 
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this! please give this guy a medal.

wonderful analogy. it takes generations or at least decades of hard work to get the expertise. if it was as simple as reverse engineering everything, China would have matched Russia's engines (they still cant).

Nonsense. Our neighbors built entire cruise missile by capturing one tomahawk and went ahead of us.
 
Our neighbors built entire cruise missile by capturing one tomahawk and went ahead of us.
their copy is based not just one one source of copy - they have a giant network of espionage to get IPR from American and European companies. even then, they havent been able to match Russian Engines - let alone American ones.
 
Nonsense. Our neighbors built entire cruise missile by capturing one tomahawk and went ahead of us.
A fighter engine is one of the hardest machine to developp so far : 1800°C inside, -55°C outside, able to go from idle to full PC in a few seconds without any restriction, an incredible density of power, must be reliable, low fuel consuming, etc...

A small cuise missile engine, able to run just one hour (or less) with an ogre appetit is another thing.
 
their copy is based not just one one source of copy - they have a giant network of espionage to get IPR from American and European companies. even then, they havent been able to match Russian Engines - let alone American ones.
He is talking about Pakisthan.
 
This is just ridiculous, I thought Safran promised the air-worthy engine by 2018 end. Till now they have only submitted in report that Kaveri can be upgraded. "Abe ye to hume bhi pata tha":mad::mad:

Safran-GTRE could just end up being one more failed collaboration if we are not careful. MK1A is round the corner and Safran is playing game with us. Once we start manufacturing MK1A i.e. by 2021 with GE-404, then we'll have to stick to the same config, changing the jet to new engine will be cumbersome task and expensive as well.

And "10,000 Cr" just for jet engine !!! And that to even after wasting 10-15 years in developing K-6 to K-10? I say crash one Mig-29 & Rafale, take their engines out, reverse engineer both of them. Nobody will ever know from which engine we copied our Kaveri from.

That article is propaganda nonsense. India will fly kaveri next tear and will need no assistance from anyone. Safran will only give certification for proving reliability and hence help gain international reputation
LOL
Is indian metallurgy able to mimic such high temperature alloys ? NO
And there are some things you can't copy and paste : software inside the Fadec for exemple. Unreadable without the proper access.

To open a RD33 or M88 with no more know how is like to give all the pieces of a watch to an octopus.
You are forgetting that India majes Al31F. Also, you are forgetting that M88 is 1990_1995 technology. India can also make it if France can. France was never known to be land of geniuses to be superior to Indiabs

A fighter engine is one of the hardest machine to developp so far : 1800°C inside, -55°C outside, able to go from idle to full PC in a few seconds without any restriction, an incredible density of power, must be reliable, low fuel consuming, etc...

A small cuise missile engine, able to run just one hour (or less) with an ogre appetit is another thing.
1800K, not Celsius. M88 will melt and leak into Rafale if temperature goes to 2050K. India is trying to not use rhenium in engine as rhenium supply will be a bottleneck for mass manufacturing. So, the attempt is to make Temperature resistance of 1750K using advanced cooling vanes and 2nd generation DS without rhenium.

2nd generation SCB with rhenium can give 30K more resistance while 3rd generation SCB can give 70-80K more resistance.

The idea is to get rhenium free engine with sufficient thrust that can be mass produced
 
You are forgetting that India majes Al31F. Also, you are forgetting that M88 is 1990_1995 technology. India can also make it if France can. France was never known to be land of geniuses to be superior to Indiabs
AL31F is of the same generation than M53. You will have to make another bond to be ready to be on par with M88 tech.

Sure we are not genius, but we have 70 years of practice in studying and producing fighter engine. It was hard, we were late versus US until M53/M88.
You are new entrant in that field. The road will be long. You will succeed, but you need time, and I far as I know and see indian time is quite long...
 
As I said, the french M88 engine was made in 1990-95. Indian engine Al31F is 1 generation behind, dated at 1980,same as M53 generation.

So, your idea that India won't be able to make the progress of 1 generation is not reasonable. Yes,it will take time but the project was anyways old abd hence took long duration of time already. So, the new engine can be expected anytime soon.
AL31F is of the same generation than M53. You will have to make another bond to be ready to be on par with M88 tech.

Sure we are not genius, but we have 70 years of practice in studying and producing fighter engine. It was hard, we were late versus US until M53/M88.
You are new entrant in that field. The road will be long. You will succeed, but you need time, and I far as I know and see indian time is quite long...
 
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As I said, the french M88 engine was made in 1990-95. Indian engine Al31F is 1 generation behind, dated at 1980,same as M53 generation.

So, your idea that India won't be able to make the progress of 1 generation is not reasonable. Yes,it will take time but the project was anyways old abd hence took long duration of time already. So, the new engine can be expected anytime soon.
The energy needed to jump from 1945 gen to 1955 is one thing.
It's another one to go from 1980 to 1990.... FADEC, Metalurgy, Flow computing are far more complicated when you reach the limit of some materials.

In a sentence : you need 20% of your energy to gain 80%. The last 20% gain need 80% of energy.
 
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The energy needed to jump from 1945 gen to 1955 is one thing.
It's another one to go from 1980 to 1990.... FADEC, Metalurgy, Flow computing are far more complicated when you reach the limit of some materials.

In a sentence : you need 20% of your energy to gain 80%. The last 20% gain need 80% of energy.
You are missing the point. If France can upgrade the technology from M53 to M88 in 10 years, why can't India also upgrade in the same time? I have not spoken about the stage but about timelines. You are arguing that India will have a different timeline than other countries for no reason. And, added to this, India started this project from 1996. India already makes RD33-3 and Al31F inhouse. Kaveri is only the next step
 
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