GTRE Kaveri Engine

Kshithij Sharma said:
You are missing the point. If France can upgrade the technology from M53 to M88 in 10 years, why can't India also upgrade in the same time? I have not spoken about the stage but about timelines. You are arguing that India will have a different timeline than other countries for no reason. And, added to this, India started this project from 1996. India already makes RD33-3 and Al31F inhouse. Kaveri is only the next step
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The difference are :
- France has a wide and very skilled research network and industrial manufacturers in high grade steel. To produce steel armature to reinforce concrete and single crystal balde is like to compare Bleriot IX and Mirage 3.
- France (SAFRAN and ONERA and...) has 70 years of background. How for India ?
- It's world wide known that the bureaucraty of India is a nighmare and curb all, including research effort.
- The job rotation of highly skilled graduate people in India is so high that it's difficult to organize a wide and long term effort in R&D.
etc...

Kaveri the next step? OK.... But it stalled until one of the top 6 (R&R, PW, GE, Safran, Klimov, Saturn) helped you. So it's a idle step.

As said early : RD33 and AL31F is a generation back. And India don't make 100% of it !
 
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Bon Plan said:
The difference are :
- France has a wide and very skilled research network and industrial manufacturers in high grade steel. To produce steel armature to reinforce concrete and single crystal balde is like to compare Bleriot IX and Mirage 3.
- France (SAFRAN and ONERA and...) has 70 years of background. How for India ?
- It's world wide known that the bureaucraty of India is a nighmare and curb all, including research effort.
- The job rotation of highly skilled graduate people in India is so high that it's difficult to organize a wide and long term effort in R&D.
etc...

Kaveri the next step? OK.... But it stalled until one of the top 6 (R&R, PW, GE, Safran, Klimov, Saturn) helped you. So it's a idle step.

As said early : RD33 and AL31F is a generation back. And India don't make 100% of it !
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Who told you that Al31F is not fully made in India? HAL openly says that it makes the engine from raw material stage.

Next, India also has wide variety of skilled scientists. Indian research sector is very vast and has high quality scientists and engineers. There is also cut throat competition which raises quality. The manufacturing base of India also has seen a big boost with advancing economy.

The background of 70 years is irrelevant as people's career is only 30 years. So, the next generation has to learn from scratch. Also, French experience in 1990-95 when M88 was made was about 40 years only. India had got ToT for MiG21 engine, mainly R29 and R25 directly from USSR in 1970s and India now makes Al31F and RD33-3 engine. So, the 1980s technology is already breached.

Indian bureaucracy is not the problem but poor politics is. It is no longer the case. So, the problem has been resolved.

Job rotation of Indians is high only in non research sector. India mainly runs IT service sector and hence there is huge job rotation. But for scientists and researchers specialised in their fields will have to work in that field itself. The pHD subject and their field of work is generally relevant and since people don't get multiple PHD, scientists tend to stick with a field.

Kaveri did not fail but politics and oil pressure played a big role in curbing the project. The same reason why Japan stopped their aircraft and engine project is the reason why India stopped its projects. Safran did not help Kaveri in any manner except for certification. Certification is not technology help but just gives an authenticity for supply in international markets. Safran is a trusted aircraft engine maker and its certification will have high value.
 
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Kshithij Sharma said:
Who told you that Al31F is not fully made in India? HAL openly says that it makes the engine from raw material stage.

Next, India also has wide variety of skilled scientists. Indian research sector is very vast and has high quality scientists and engineers. There is also cut throat competition which raises quality. The manufacturing base of India also has seen a big boost with advancing economy.

The background of 70 years is irrelevant as people's career is only 30 years. So, the next generation has to learn from scratch. Also, French experience in 1990-95 when M88 was made was about 40 years only. India had got ToT for MiG21 engine, mainly R29 and R25 directly from USSR in 1970s and India now makes Al31F and RD33-3 engine. So, the 1980s technology is already breached.

Indian bureaucracy is not the problem but poor politics is. It is no longer the case. So, the problem has been resolved.

Job rotation of Indians is high only in non research sector. India mainly runs IT service sector and hence there is huge job rotation. But for scientists and researchers specialised in their fields will have to work in that field itself. The pHD subject and their field of work is generally relevant and since people don't get multiple PHD, scientists tend to stick with a field.

Kaveri did not fail but politics and oil pressure played a big role in curbing the project. The same reason why Japan stopped their aircraft and engine project is the reason why India stopped its projects. Safran did not help Kaveri in any manner except for certification. Certification is not technology help but just gives an authenticity for supply in international markets. Safran is a trusted aircraft engine maker and its certification will have high value.
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I have a doubt about HAL producing 100% of AL31F. But it's only a personnal doubt. (some electronic cards with the "FADEC" software? some blades?)

I don't know how it is in India (it's a joke !) but in a high tech west company (SAFRAN for exemple) you have old sage researchers of 60 years old, some of 50, some of 40, some noob of 30. So the skill is not lost between the generations....
M88 use M53 feed back, built on ATAR returns, using german WW2 expertise...
Nothing like that in India.
 
halloweene said:
Kshitij, in some aspects, developing an engine is as much art as pure science. Safran did and is helping Kaveri. Let me just give an example (most are more or less classified/secret) : reliability.
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The father of a friend of mine, André Barbot, was the director of the M88 project for the first 10 years.
I have the opportunity to discuss with him during his son wedding.

He said me that very very few people among the six company able to developp a fighter engine have the know how, the skill, the fealing, the magical touch to found all the parameters to produce a nice engine.
It's not only a question of technology, of computing power... but he spoke me about magical touch. I was very surprised and impressed.

And this skill, feeling, magic came after years of practice, prototyps, success, failures, studies, exchanges with others. You are far away of that. See chinese exemple.
 
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Bon Plan said:
I have a doubt about HAL producing 100% of AL31F. But it's only a personnal doubt. (some electronic cards with the "FADEC" software? some blades?)

I don't know how it is in India (it's a joke !) but in a high tech west company (SAFRAN for exemple) you have old sage researchers of 60 years old, some of 50, some of 40, some noob of 30. So the skill is not lost between the generations....
M88 use M53 feed back, built on ATAR returns, using german WW2 expertise...
Nothing like that in India.
Click to expand...
As on date, only Japanese have a far superior engine tech equivalent to what Americans have or maybe even better. Europeans are no where close to that tech. Stop beating your chest. You are rated third or third rate in the order of Jet engine tech.
 
Bon Plan said:
I have a doubt about HAL producing 100% of AL31F. But it's only a personnal doubt. (some electronic cards with the "FADEC" software? some blades?)

I don't know how it is in India (it's a joke !) but in a high tech west company (SAFRAN for exemple) you have old sage researchers of 60 years old, some of 50, some of 40, some noob of 30. So the skill is not lost between the generations....
M88 use M53 feed back, built on ATAR returns, using german WW2 expertise...
Nothing like that in India.
Click to expand...

HAL is not producing 100% parts of an engine. No country is an idiot to give the engine tech to another on a plate. At best we assemble and manufacture some parts. The core and the blades I am sure are imported from Russia.
 
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Kshithij Sharma said:
The background of 70 years is irrelevant as people's career is only 30 years. So, the next generation has to learn from scratch. Also, French experience in 1990-95 when M88 was made was about 40 years only. India had got ToT for MiG21 engine, mainly R29 and R25 directly from USSR in 1970s and India now makes Al31F and RD33-3 engine. So, the 1980s technology is already breached.

Indian bureaucracy is not the problem but poor politics is. It is no longer the case. So, the problem has been resolved.

Job rotation of Indians is high only in non research sector. India mainly runs IT service sector and hence there is huge job rotation. But for scientists and researchers specialised in their fields will have to work in that field itself. The pHD subject and their field of work is generally relevant and since people don't get multiple PHD, scientists tend to stick with a field.
.
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Do you know you actually sound stupid? When I joined an organisation, the seniors there mentored me on how to do Electronics stuff done. My Engineering knowledge didnt help me. It was only due to passage of time and guidance I learnt from them.

Now could I have learnt from scratch? Yes. Simply it would have taken 3-4 years instead of 3-4 months. So that 30 years arguement is plain stupid. And boasting to an Frenchman, whose country has engines flying their own jets how our engine is blah blah is nothing short of..............
 
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vstol Jockey said:
As on date, only Japanese have a far superior engine tech equivalent to what Americans have or maybe even better. Europeans are no where close to that tech. Stop beating your chest. You are rated third or third rate in the order of Jet engine tech.
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Where is the first japanese fighter engine ? Oh Yes, I have forgotten the Nakajima Sakae 12 of the A6M zero

Third? maybe? After PW, GE. But before RR (hasn't produce a whole engine since decades), russia and... Japan (LOL for Japan)
 
vstol Jockey said:
They should have been asking the Japanese instead. Goron kee gaand kaa swaad abhi bhi gaya nahin hai govt of India kay muhn say.
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Does Japanese own any IP's without US companies influence? Even their domestic fighter use American engines. Japan are even cautious to share tech on U2, an ambitious plane. There is no high level co-op with Japan like India has with France. So stop blowing smoke and lets talk on reality. Russia and France were the only countries ready to share some techs with us. US, UK and now Japan wont. Deal it with.
 
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sid4587 said:
Same thing was told by GTRE guy during Defexpo 2018.
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Certification in itself is a separate engineering field. Its not easy as some make it out to be. India doesnt have certification standards for many stuffs. Its just recently we have built certification for combat aircrafts. There is for engines, buildings, materials to be used, which are mostly borrowed from Soviet or Nato standards.
 
Vicky said:
Does Japanese own any IP's without US companies influence? Even their domestic fighter use American engines. Japan are even cautious to share tech on U2, an ambitious plane. There is no high level co-op with Japan like India has with France. So stop blowing smoke and lets talk on reality. Russia and France were the only countries ready to share some techs with us. US, UK and now Japan wont. Deal it with.
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For your information, It was Japs who first made a GAA AESA and it was Japs who first had it on an AAM as the seeker. The great Thales has signed an agreement with Japs to put that seeker on Meteor. let any French member deny it. Japs were the first to put CMC in turbines and they are ahead of USA in RAS-Radar Absorbing Structures. They are also the first nation in the world to have an operational Fly-by-Optics FCS on a fighter aircraft-ATD-2X. Even Americans do not have it. Infact no nation in the world has it.
Japanese companies hold all the IPRs as it is their technology and not bought over from USA or France. French are not even 10% of what Japanese are in the field of Electronic technology. Remember those good old small transistors and tape recorders of Japan which were the most sought after items in the world in 70s.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
For your information, It was Japs who first made a GAA AESA and it was Japs who first had it on an AAM as the seeker. The great Thales has signed an agreement with Japs to put that seeker on Meteor. let any French member deny it. Japs were the first to put CMC in turbines and they are ahead of USA in RAS-Radar Absorbing Structures. They are also the first nation in the world to have an operational Fly-by-Optics FCS on a fighter aircraft-ATD-2X. Even Americans do not have it. Infact no nation in the world has it.
Japanese companies hold all the IPRs as it is their technology and not bought over from USA or France. French are not even 10% of what Japanese are in the field of Electronic technology. Remember those good old small transistors and tape recorders of Japan which were the most sought after items in the world in 70s.
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You can talk about it when we use Electronics fitted to the back of the aircraft to make it fly.
 
vstol Jockey said:
For your information, It was Japs who first made a GAA AESA and it was Japs who first had it on an AAM as the seeker. The great Thales has signed an agreement with Japs to put that seeker on Meteor. let any French member deny it. Japs were the first to put CMC in turbines and they are ahead of USA in RAS-Radar Absorbing Structures. They are also the first nation in the world to have an operational Fly-by-Optics FCS on a fighter aircraft-ATD-2X. Even Americans do not have it. Infact no nation in the world has it.
Japanese companies hold all the IPRs as it is their technology and not bought over from USA or France. French are not even 10% of what Japanese are in the field of Electronic technology. Remember those good old small transistors and tape recorders of Japan which were the most sought after items in the world in 70s.
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See how they lose the smartphone market.
See the shape of Toshiba.
See Nissan in the french Renault hands.

It's not Thales that dealed with Japan : Japan, Britain To Collaborate On Meteor Guidance
And no recent news...

The MICA is the first european missile to be equipped by an active EU (french) seeker and the Meteor seeker is a son of it's up to date seeker, with a high pk.
 
I think toughest part is to identify the life of a engine before engine boom in air (before crack in turbine blade) ...to do that we need electronic subsystem,sensor which will capture the data . In a normal test environment you can check a single environmental stress on a blade or disk ,for a multiple environmental stress you need lots applied mathematics and algorithms to identify the breakdown point i.e. to make the engine safer .i am sure nobody is helping us directly to fix the engine but yes we took help of all the test facilities available to us and also we are not sharing any data without any technology transfer agreement.
A nice video from gtre 2017...question is when we will use it .Even with lower thrust gtre should demonstrate Kaveri flight worthiness... may be on Tejas test bed.
 
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