GTRE Kaveri Engine

that's not how it works, those statements are not just air, we have progressed a lot since last 10 years in terms of metallurgy we didn't have single crystal tech in 2010s and kaveri has been refined and all problem of screech, fan flutter and afterburner issues has been resolved,
by that arguments of yours we would have gotten tech transfer by now if it was just to get foreign engine easily,
Its not about scientific progress or whatever in development side, its about political decision making and using the said progress to act as leverage to get the thing you actually want. What they want is not tech transfer , just enough supply of engines, preferably assembled within the country so the vast swathe of govt employee can be kept busy as a vote bank. Every incumbent Govt play by the same book.

I think you are considering only the full assembled engines as the only product here, but it is not so. Its the entire gamut of supply chain, from raw materials stage to the long term amc and spare supply this entire chain consist of thousands of small medium and large scale products, their machinery, test equipment, electronics, high end sensors, amc contract of those second/lower tier everything is in the list, that if imported need export clearance from foreign countries & local vendors as OEM approved & certified source each time.
Govt point at industry fully knowing local biz is not capable and reluctant to be responsible for this whole supply chain issue and vice-versa industry point at Govt for not committing to confirmed order fully knowing that would be well against policy making process. Its a well known game.
 
If GTRE becomes subsidiary of HAL instead of DRDO, it will be better, since HAL has the capacity to fund any program.
HAL already has a HAL engine division. They can fund anything they want to. They are not even properly funding the current initiatives like HTFE and HTSE because those are not a priority for them.

GTRE is a fully taxpayer-funded R&D lab that is part of DRDO. They do not produce the engines.

We need a new entity that focuses solely on the production of every type of engine according to global standards. We can create this by carving out a new company from the engine division of HAL. They will be self-sustained with the current order book and will be able to prioritise and fund their less ambitious R&D. GTRE can continue to focus on high-end next-generation engine developments, which will require massive government funding.
 
comparable to CMSX10.





Alloy: DMS4M

Solution Heat Treatment:

1340°C for 5 hours
1350°C for 5 hours
1355°C for 10 hours
1360°C for 15 hours, followed by air cooling
First Aging Heat Treatment:

1160°C for 6 hours, followed by air cooling
Second Aging Heat Treatment:

870°C for 20 hours, followed by air cooling
Third Aging Heat Treatment:

760°C for 30 hours, followed by air cooling
There is also DMD4, a directionally solidified alloy derived from DMS4. Developed as a columnar grain superalloy for cost-effective turbine airfoil parts. Solutionized between 1300°C and 1330°C over 30 hours.
Now the question is why aren’t we using DMS4 if we have it? I think it was because the goal was never the performance; Kaveri already had a lot of trouble back in 2010, and they were dealing with it, and on top of it, introducing an untested, new material in the engine would have complicated their already very complicated problems. Since they have chosen tried and tested CMSX4, a second-generation alloy to be used in HPT of KDE. The Kabini was using Supercast 247A; maybe that's been replaced with the superior DMD4 alloy. Kaveri was also using Superni 718A for HPC. MIDHANI has also developed the Superni-115 LPT blade blank, although it can't be confirmed if Kaveri is using it or not.

DMRL has also made low-pressure turbine blisks for STFE engines. DMRL has also worked on serpentine air cooling for SX blades.

The first KDE was delivered to GTRE in late 2024, soon followed by a second prototype, with both undergoing high-altitude testing in Russia. Where they have more or less achieved their goals. According to a report by ET, on Dec 24, 2024, after completing its high-altitude testing, the engine is ready for real-world evaluation on a flying test bed.

There is another simultaneous project going on where a redesigned afterburner is being made by BrahMos Aerospace, who won the tender in 2020 from GTRE. The AB will then be integrated with KDE and will probably be used on a dual-engine aircraft or LSP Tejas for certification and demonstration purposes.
Today, India has all the building blocks to make its own 4th-gen engine with many PSUs and private players being the first-tier suppliers for global OEMs. A lot of work is being done on composite materials to sustain temperatures as high as 2000°C. Other than GTRE, there is also the Aero Engine Research and Design Center (AERDC) of HAL's engine R&D wing, which has developed the HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines, although the technology is a generation older than what is used in Kaveri. Then there is also MIDHANI, which has developed a wide range of materials since the program began, including materials like Inconel 718.

The majority of problems can be solved, and India can have its own engine with adequate manufacturing and testing infrastructure. But to be optimistic, HAL is setting up a national facility with a 50,000-ton die forge press and a 20,000-ton isothermal press. For many uses, the facility will also make titanium bulkheads for AMCA. The 20,000-ton iso press will be used to make powder metallurgy disks. Then India will need to use blisk for weight reduction of the engine. and use of composite materials in the AB.

Then there is the joint venture deal with foreign OEMs to make a 110 kN engine, which will replace GE F414-IN6 in the future, the front runners of this deal being Rolls-Royce and Safran. Both are offering everything India lacks more or less, and the deal basically includes GTRE getting know-how and know-why, a flying test bed, and other manufacturing and testing infrastructure required to make this engine. The development of this engine will take 10-15 years and will require funding of $4-6 billion USD.
There is no lack of developed technologies in the labs. Those need to tested on actual aircraft for thousands of hours to deliver on promises. Without testing infra and dedicated funding it will not be happening.

Mark this post for future reference. Kaveri will not be flying on a fighter (single or double-engined) this decade. Its just impossible IMO.
 
Kaveri has a big design problem that we are going to use sc+ TBC + cooling and PMC bypass duct, bladed blisks to compensate for it. TBC is not used in the same class of engines like F404 and RD 33.
 
In the entire world, there are very few jet engine manufacturers. Mainly they are Rolls-Royce from UK, Pratt and Whitney, CFM International, General Electric from the USA, Safran from France and Lyulka-Saturn from Russia. It means the jet engine manufacturers are separate from Aircraft manufactures. In India, HAL has got their manufacturing unit at Sunabeda, Orissa. Why not form a separate Public sector company, for Jet Engine manufacture in India also by shifting the facilities from HAL along with their staff. GTRE should be part of that company. Then there could be an improvement in their attitude and performance.
 
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In the entire world, there are very few jet engine manufacturers. Mainly they are Rolls-Royce from UK, Pratt and Whitney, CFM International, General Electric from the USA, Safran from France and Lyulka-Saturn from Russia. It means the jet engine manufacturers are separate from Aircraft manufactures. In India, HAL has got their manufacturing unit at Sunabeda, Orissa. Why not form a separate Public sector company, for Jet Engine manufacture in India also by shifting the facilities from HAL along with their staff. GTRE should be part of that company. Then there could be an improvement in their attitude and performance.
Wrong Government for that, If there is a separate engine manufacturer in India it will be a private company with some SPV type model or it will some some existing DPSU.
 
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Wrong Government for that, If there is a separate engine manufacturer in India it will be a private company with some SPV type model or it will some some existing DPSU.
Yes, it is desirable, but no private entrepreneur from India will come forward for such projects due to uncertainty and huge investment. That is the reason I have suggested for Public enterprise. Further, under defence ministry, an established organisations and infrastructure is available which can be utilised to form a new company.
 
HAL only just got Maharatna status last year, so this idea that they could fund any program before is very premature. As Navratna they still needed prion govt approval for large project sanction, mere passing thru board meeting won't have sufficient leverage like the UHM funding in this given the cost of Engine dev program is way more. I doubt HAL would look at this by themselves even in next 10+ years unless central govt tell them to do so (by obviously being a partner in foreign engine deal/development work deal).
 
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Yes, it is desirable, but no private entrepreneur from India will come forward for such projects due to uncertainty and huge investment
Not entirely true, if you can get some one like Baba Kalyani. He is very interested in making jet engines, and of course GoI will need to make up the most of the cost, if you can get more companies like Godrej who are already working with KDE and share the work and IP with them, It can be done.
 
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Not entirely true, if you can get some one like Baba Kalyani. He is very interested in making jet engines, and of course GoI will need to make up the most of the cost, if you can get more companies like Godrej who are already working with KDE and share the work and IP with them, It can be
"of course GoI will need to make up the most of the cost," If Government subsidised to a maximum extant hundreds of will come forward. Anyhow, Godrej is coming forward and already got some experience and facilities due to manufacturing of Kaveri engine.
 
Could be useful for aerospace later:


Anyway, the good news is that Midhani has developed a new nickel-based precipitation hardening superalloy called Superni, Indian High Temperature Alloy (IHTA), designed for use in the steam generator tubes of India's demonstrator Advanced Ultra Super Critical (AUSC) thermal power plant. IHTA offers excellent resistance to coal ash corrosion.
 
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