GTRE Kaveri Engine

No shit Sherlock!!
there is nothing new in this video,
he is just reading Wikipedia page of karveri engine,

stop giving attention to such defense you tubers,
alpha defense, and this guy are disgrace to defense journalism.
creating fake news just to get views.
Alfa Defense is a serious guy.
I think so.
 
Why are people delusional even after decades of experience? GTRE people are listing issues and lack of funds. How the hell will all these get fixed without additional funding and test facilities. The jokes write itself.
Funding of Kaveri program restarted in 2024 itself. After completion of KDE (Kaveri dry) GTRE will go for testing of Kaveri Afterburner.
 
Funding of Kaveri program restarted in 2024 itself. After completion of KDE (Kaveri dry) GTRE will go for testing of Kaveri Afterburner.
No, there is no such restart. Confirmed by GTRE people during aero india. Everything is depended on AMCA engine partnership. Its not possible to make originally designed spec kaveri with currently available technologies in india.
 
No, there is no such restart. Confirmed by GTRE people during aero india. Everything is depended on AMCA engine partnership. Its not possible to make originally designed spec kaveri with currently available technologies in india.
In my humble opinion, it is not lack of technologies, it is lack of metallurgical and manufacturing (Like High capacity presses) and testing facilities that are needed. From various inputs from this forum, it is evident that knowledge is available. The requirement is only of special alloys and facilities to manufacture.
 
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In my humble opinion, it is not lack of technologies, it is lack of metallurgical and manufacturing (Like High capacity presses) and testing facilities that are needed. From various inputs from this forum, it is evident that knowledge is available. The requirement is only of special alloys and facilities to manufacture.
Of course, lack of all those things plus money and will leads to lack of technology that you apply on a product.

This logic also applies to the claims of the fifth nation to have an SSBN or a land rover on the moon. None of the other nations have tried !. Most nations with enough resources can achieve all of these things if they try.
 
Of course, lack of all those things plus money and will leads to lack of technology that you apply on a product.

This logic also applies to the claims of the fifth nation to have an SSBN or a land rover on the moon. None of the other nations have tried !. Most nations with enough resources can achieve all of these things if they try.
I fail to understand why Indian Government links the fund allocation with AMCA engine partnership. These facilities in any way will be utilised when the AMCA program is finalised. Meanwhile, GTRE talent can be exploited for betterment of the development of the present Kavari engine. This could be an incentive and reward to the GTRE scientists.
 
I fail to understand why Indian Government links the fund allocation with AMCA engine partnership. These facilities in any way will be utilised when the AMCA program is finalised. Meanwhile, GTRE talent can be exploited for betterment of the development of the present Kavari engine. This could be an incentive and reward to the GTRE scientists.
There is no linking with AMCA program you are confusing with LCA mk2. AMCA mk1 with be with GE414.

This GTRE "talent" has been overpromising and underdelivering for the last few decades. When they are realistic and pitching for foreign collaboration, you better believe them.
 
No, there is no such restart. Confirmed by GTRE people during aero india. Everything is depended on AMCA engine partnership. Its not possible to make originally designed spec kaveri with currently available technologies in india.
Dry Kaveri from KDE and after burner from brahamos aerospace going to mate. If not so, why GTRE asking brahamos aerospace to make after burner. This resulted Kaveri version will go for testing in a manned platform.
 
Dry Kaveri from KDE and after burner from brahamos aerospace going to mate. If not so, why GTRE asking brahamos aerospace to make after burner. This resulted Kaveri version will go for testing in a manned platform.
KDE is made by godrej for UCAV which was funded a decade back. If there is afterburner ordered it is part of endless test cycle.

GTRE is verbatim saying, "There is no plan to mate Kaveri to LCA". They have also said, with current technological availability they can only reach 75Kn.

Meaning, they will continue the endless developmental progress in glacial pace with residual funds. There is no new program to revive Kaveri. The focus is now on developing the 110kn engine. This will address all the technological shortcomings of Kaveri as it belongs to a different generation, and all test facilities are part of the program.

I would advise you to limit your expectations in the near term and hope for the quick conclusion of the AMCA engine JV.
 
KDE is made by godrej for UCAV which was funded a decade back. If there is afterburner ordered it is part of endless test cycle.

GTRE is verbatim saying, "There is no plan to mate Kaveri to LCA". They have also said, with current technological availability they can only reach 75Kn.

Meaning, they will continue the endless developmental progress in glacial pace with residual funds. There is no new program to revive Kaveri. The focus is now on developing the 110kn engine. This will address all the technological shortcomings of Kaveri as it belongs to a different generation, and all test facilities are part of the program.

I would advise you to limit your expectations in the near term and hope for the quick conclusion of the AMCA engine JV.
comparable to CMSX10.





Alloy: DMS4M

Solution Heat Treatment:

1340°C for 5 hours
1350°C for 5 hours
1355°C for 10 hours
1360°C for 15 hours, followed by air cooling
First Aging Heat Treatment:

1160°C for 6 hours, followed by air cooling
Second Aging Heat Treatment:

870°C for 20 hours, followed by air cooling
Third Aging Heat Treatment:

760°C for 30 hours, followed by air cooling
There is also DMD4, a directionally solidified alloy derived from DMS4. Developed as a columnar grain superalloy for cost-effective turbine airfoil parts. Solutionized between 1300°C and 1330°C over 30 hours.
Now the question is why aren’t we using DMS4 if we have it? I think it was because the goal was never the performance; Kaveri already had a lot of trouble back in 2010, and they were dealing with it, and on top of it, introducing an untested, new material in the engine would have complicated their already very complicated problems. Since they have chosen tried and tested CMSX4, a second-generation alloy to be used in HPT of KDE. The Kabini was using Supercast 247A; maybe that's been replaced with the superior DMD4 alloy. Kaveri was also using Superni 718A for HPC. MIDHANI has also developed the Superni-115 LPT blade blank, although it can't be confirmed if Kaveri is using it or not.

DMRL has also made low-pressure turbine blisks for STFE engines. DMRL has also worked on serpentine air cooling for SX blades.

The first KDE was delivered to GTRE in late 2024, soon followed by a second prototype, with both undergoing high-altitude testing in Russia. Where they have more or less achieved their goals. According to a report by ET, on Dec 24, 2024, after completing its high-altitude testing, the engine is ready for real-world evaluation on a flying test bed.

There is another simultaneous project going on where a redesigned afterburner is being made by BrahMos Aerospace, who won the tender in 2020 from GTRE. The AB will then be integrated with KDE and will probably be used on a dual-engine aircraft or LSP Tejas for certification and demonstration purposes.
Today, India has all the building blocks to make its own 4th-gen engine with many PSUs and private players being the first-tier suppliers for global OEMs. A lot of work is being done on composite materials to sustain temperatures as high as 2000°C. Other than GTRE, there is also the Aero Engine Research and Design Center (AERDC) of HAL's engine R&D wing, which has developed the HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines, although the technology is a generation older than what is used in Kaveri. Then there is also MIDHANI, which has developed a wide range of materials since the program began, including materials like Inconel 718.

The majority of problems can be solved, and India can have its own engine with adequate manufacturing and testing infrastructure. But to be optimistic, HAL is setting up a national facility with a 50,000-ton die forge press and a 20,000-ton isothermal press. For many uses, the facility will also make titanium bulkheads for AMCA. The 20,000-ton iso press will be used to make powder metallurgy disks. Then India will need to use blisk for weight reduction of the engine. and use of composite materials in the AB.

Then there is the joint venture deal with foreign OEMs to make a 110 kN engine, which will replace GE F414-IN6 in the future, the front runners of this deal being Rolls-Royce and Safran. Both are offering everything India lacks more or less, and the deal basically includes GTRE getting know-how and know-why, a flying test bed, and other manufacturing and testing infrastructure required to make this engine. The development of this engine will take 10-15 years and will require funding of $4-6 billion USD.
 
At least link the article, bro

Article: The Kaveri Saga

Kaveri also has a shortfall of around 12%, and it has produced 70-75 kN throughout its development. There are a total of 10 versions of Kaveri: from K1 to K9, K9+, or K9*. Kaveri was started with an ambitious weight target of 1000 kg. Later revised to 1100 kg for LCA and again revised to 1050 kg. The first Kaveri engine (K1) weighed 1423.78 kg. GTRE undertook weight reduction exercise starting in 1993, and the weight of K9 was 1235 kg and finally the K9+, which is 1180 kg. To further reduce the weight, the use of blisks (bladed disks), PMC ducts, which weigh 26 kg compared to metallic 32 kg, and powder metallurgy disks, which will require a high-pressure isothermal press that India does not possess as of now, we do have a 2000 MT ton isothermal forge at MIDHANI, which was used to make disks for all five stages of the high-pressure compressor of andour engines, which power the Jaguar aircrafts of the IAF. The aim of Kaveri has achieved a thrust-to-weight ratio of 6.5 against the target of 8.

The thrust and weight shortfalls are just the tip of the iceberg; Kaveri also had a fair share of other problems:
  • U Certain critical and crucial activities for successful development of Kaveri, viz. development of Compressor, Turbine and Engine Control System, have been lagging behind despite increase in cost by Rs 186.61 crore - CAG Report No. 16 of 2010
  • GTRE has been unable to freeze the design of the turbine blades, the compressor has witnessed mechanical failure in performance and the engine control system is not flight-worthy. - CAG Report No. 16 of 2010
  • The Kaveri engine which is designed to meet the conditions of operating fighters in the Indian environment is perhaps technologically more challenging than the airframe.
The Core Engine demonstration, which was planned for 1990, happened in 1995; Full Engine was demonstrated in 1995 instead of the planned 1992. The historical circumstances and geopolitics didn't help the program either. The LCA was to use Kaveri in the production variant while using Electric F404-GE-F2J3. In 1995, the US approved the sale of the 404 engine to India, and eleven of them were purchased to be fitted in early demonstrators of the LCA.

In 1998, after the Pokhran Tests, the US sanctioned India, all support was withdrawn, and the LCA's last hope was the Kaveri engine. In 2001, LSP-1 made its first flight at Mach 2.1 powered with an F404-F2J3. The US sanctions were lifted, and Tejas went into production with F404-IN20 engines.

The main issues with Kaveri engines were blade flutter, screeching noise, and afterburner oscillations. There were also problems with the low-pressure compressor, which is why the entire frontal section was redesigned for KDE. The problem with the fan was that of efficiency surge margin and flutter; for HPC, it was blade high-cycle fatigue failure and shortfall of performance compared to what was expected. For combustors it was pressure loss, pattern factor, and structural integrity; for afterburners it was screech, thrust boost, and buckling. At the time of writing this article, all the problems are mostly solved. The issue with afterburner instability was with the fuel spray nozzles, and mostly the afterburner was stretched.

There was also an issue of flickering, which was solved back in 2010. Another issue is the very low bypass ratio, which leaves less air for cooling. The in-house blades used by GTRE initially failed; this led GTRE to procure disks, blades, and control systems from Snecma. The major issues with Kaveri as of today are resolved. Safran did an audit on the engine a couple of times; they noticed some problems with the afterburner, and they were resolved.

13 engines are made till 2021, including 9 full prototypes (K1 to K9) and 4 core engines, all upgraded to the K9+ standard.

Two of the six Kaveri engines made in 1998 went for testing in Russia at CIMA, and a series of tests over two years were to examine its ability to withstand low pressure and temperature at high altitudes. Later in 2004, Kaveri failed high altitude testing in Russia. By 2008 Kaveri underwent 1,700 hours of ground testing in India and was sent to Russia twice. In 2011-12, Kaveri was tested in Russia by replacing one of the four engines of the Il-76 at a maximum altitude of 12 km and a forward speed of 0.7 Mach.

After conducting thorough engine ground runs, the scientists successfully completed the taxi trials and the maiden flight test of the Kaveri engine with the IL-76 aircraft on November 3rd, 2011, followed by three additional flight tests. The engine was again successfully tested in 2012 at an altitude of 6000 ft at Mach 0.6 speed for 55 hours in Russia. During this testing, Kaveri was able to achieve 49.2 kN dry thrust against a 51 kN target and 70.4 kN wet thrust against 81 kN.

In 2012, it was confirmed that a version of Kaveri (K9+) with its afterburner removed, called the Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE), will be used to power the Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle, or AURA, what is now called the Ghatak UCAV.

During this time there was also a proposal to invite a foreign engine house to solve the problems with the Kaveri engine called K10. This was in discussion since 2008 but was never approached. In 2014 France proposed investing 1 billion euros as part of the Dassault Rafale offsets deal and suggested a joint venture with DRDO to swiftly revive the Kaveri engine program and make it airworthy by 2018. Everyone was fine with it; it required them to do nothing. Later, France offered the M88 core to be used, and this venture fell apart.

Kaveri was using DS blades in the LPT and HPT section, but the KDE is using CMSX4 for HPT blades, as revealed in an interview by Dr. S.V. Ramana Murthy (GTRE Director), who also recommended India to set up its own strategic materials reserve to store or bank critical materials that India will require for making these engines. He also talked about CMSX4 blades being made in India but raw materials still being imported.
We have also developed a TBC coating unit with ARCI, Hyderabad, and DMRL for yttria-stabilized zirconia coating. The project is more or less in research mode and has not been used for production yet. The SX blades in KDE does use TBC coating, but it is applied by some other machine. ARCI has also developed 150 kW Axial Suspension Plasma Spray, an alternative method for TBC. GTRE is also using EDM machines from Makino for cooling holes.

Talking about single-crystal blades, the HAL makes single-crystal blades for AL31FP engines, which power the Su-30MKI of the IAF, using the Bridgman–Stockbarger technique. The AL31 engine is 53% by cost indigenous and 87% of the components. One can imagine the disks and raw materials are still being imported. A contract was signed with HAL to make 240 AL31FP engines to overhaul Su-30s. The indigenous content will climb to 63% and average 54%.

DMRL has also developed their own single-crystal blades, like DMS4 with intricate cooling channels. The DMS4 is officially a 3rd Gen SX alloy, although there exists an argument that DMS4 is a 4th gen alloy; we will stick to the official definition given in papers published by DMRL. DMS4 is in the same league as CMSX10, Rene N6, and TMS75. DMS4 offers 1140°C TET compared to 1104°C of Rene N6. DMS4 is also patented. It also has a metal temperate capability of 1140°C against 1135°C of CMSX10, 1110°C of TMS 75 and 1150°C of TMS 196 (5th gen alloy) used in XF5(49 kN Japanese engine). Also, one can imagine the TET you can achieve with proper use of DMS4 from its heat treatment. The details about DMS4 show that it lies in the same league as some of the alloys.

Info about DMS4 from:
In the fully heat-treated condition, DMS4 offers more than 80°C metal temperature advantage over the first generation single crystal superalloy CMSX2 and about 8°C advantage over modern third generation alloys such as CMSX10
Fully solutionized between 1315°C - 1360°C over 24 hours with a heat treatment window of 20°C.
Shows superior 1% creep strength and creep rupture life comparable to CMSX10.

Shows superior 1% creep strength and creep rupture life comparable to CMSX10.






Alloy: DMS4M

  • Solution Heat Treatment:
    • 1340°C for 5 hours
    • 1350°C for 5 hours
    • 1355°C for 10 hours
    • 1360°C for 15 hours, followed by air cooling
  • First Aging Heat Treatment:
    • 1160°C for 6 hours, followed by air cooling
  • Second Aging Heat Treatment:
    • 870°C for 20 hours, followed by air cooling
  • Third Aging Heat Treatment:
    • 760°C for 30 hours, followed by air cooling
There is also DMD4, a directionally solidified alloy derived from DMS4. Developed as a columnar grain superalloy for cost-effective turbine airfoil parts. Solutionized between 1300°C and 1330°C over 30 hours.
Now the question is why aren’t we using DMS4 if we have it? I think it was because the goal was never the performance; Kaveri already had a lot of trouble back in 2010, and they were dealing with it, and on top of it, introducing an untested, new material in the engine would have complicated their already very complicated problems. Since they have chosen tried and tested CMSX4, a second-generation alloy to be used in HPT of KDE. The Kabini was using Supercast 247A; maybe that's been replaced with the superior DMD4 alloy. Kaveri was also using Superni 718A for HPC. MIDHANI has also developed the Superni-115 LPT blade blank, although it can't be confirmed if Kaveri is using it or not.

DMRL has also made low-pressure turbine blisks for STFE engines. DMRL has also worked on serpentine air cooling for SX blades.

The first KDE was delivered to GTRE in late 2024, soon followed by a second prototype, with both undergoing high-altitude testing in Russia. Where they have more or less achieved their goals. According to a report by ET, on Dec 24, 2024, after completing its high-altitude testing, the engine is ready for real-world evaluation on a flying test bed.

There is another simultaneous project going on where a redesigned afterburner is being made by BrahMos Aerospace, who won the tender in 2020 from GTRE. The AB will then be integrated with KDE and will probably be used on a dual-engine aircraft or LSP Tejas for certification and demonstration purposes.
Today, India has all the building blocks to make its own 4th-gen engine with many PSUs and private players being the first-tier suppliers for global OEMs. A lot of work is being done on composite materials to sustain temperatures as high as 2000°C. Other than GTRE, there is also the Aero Engine Research and Design Center (AERDC) of HAL's engine R&D wing, which has developed the HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines, although the technology is a generation older than what is used in Kaveri. Then there is also MIDHANI, which has developed a wide range of materials since the program began, including materials like Inconel 718.
The majority of problems can be solved, and India can have its own engine with adequate manufacturing and testing infrastructure. But to be optimistic, HAL is setting up a national facility with a 50,000-ton die forge press and a 20,000-ton isothermal press. For many uses, the facility will also make titanium bulkheads for AMCA. The 20,000-ton iso press will be used to make powder metallurgy disks. Then India will need to use blisk for weight reduction of the engine. and use of composite materials in the AB.

Then there is the joint venture deal with foreign OEMs to make a 110 kN engine, which will replace GE F414-IN6 in the future, the front runners of this deal being Rolls-Royce and Safran. Both are offering everything India lacks more or less, and the deal basically includes GTRE getting know-how and know-why, a flying test bed, and other manufacturing and testing infrastructure required to make this engine. The development of this engine will take 10-15 years and will require funding of $4-6 billion USD.
 
At least link the article, bro

Article: The Kaveri Saga

Kaveri also has a shortfall of around 12%, and it has produced 70-75 kN throughout its development. There are a total of 10 versions of Kaveri: from K1 to K9, K9+, or K9*. Kaveri was started with an ambitious weight target of 1000 kg. Later revised to 1100 kg for LCA and again revised to 1050 kg. The first Kaveri engine (K1) weighed 1423.78 kg. GTRE undertook weight reduction exercise starting in 1993, and the weight of K9 was 1235 kg and finally the K9+, which is 1180 kg. To further reduce the weight, the use of blisks (bladed disks), PMC ducts, which weigh 26 kg compared to metallic 32 kg, and powder metallurgy disks, which will require a high-pressure isothermal press that India does not possess as of now, we do have a 2000 MT ton isothermal forge at MIDHANI, which was used to make disks for all five stages of the high-pressure compressor of andour engines, which power the Jaguar aircrafts of the IAF. The aim of Kaveri has achieved a thrust-to-weight ratio of 6.5 against the target of 8.

The thrust and weight shortfalls are just the tip of the iceberg; Kaveri also had a fair share of other problems:
  • U Certain critical and crucial activities for successful development of Kaveri, viz. development of Compressor, Turbine and Engine Control System, have been lagging behind despite increase in cost by Rs 186.61 crore - CAG Report No. 16 of 2010
  • GTRE has been unable to freeze the design of the turbine blades, the compressor has witnessed mechanical failure in performance and the engine control system is not flight-worthy. - CAG Report No. 16 of 2010
  • The Kaveri engine which is designed to meet the conditions of operating fighters in the Indian environment is perhaps technologically more challenging than the airframe.
The Core Engine demonstration, which was planned for 1990, happened in 1995; Full Engine was demonstrated in 1995 instead of the planned 1992. The historical circumstances and geopolitics didn't help the program either. The LCA was to use Kaveri in the production variant while using Electric F404-GE-F2J3. In 1995, the US approved the sale of the 404 engine to India, and eleven of them were purchased to be fitted in early demonstrators of the LCA.

In 1998, after the Pokhran Tests, the US sanctioned India, all support was withdrawn, and the LCA's last hope was the Kaveri engine. In 2001, LSP-1 made its first flight at Mach 2.1 powered with an F404-F2J3. The US sanctions were lifted, and Tejas went into production with F404-IN20 engines.

The main issues with Kaveri engines were blade flutter, screeching noise, and afterburner oscillations. There were also problems with the low-pressure compressor, which is why the entire frontal section was redesigned for KDE. The problem with the fan was that of efficiency surge margin and flutter; for HPC, it was blade high-cycle fatigue failure and shortfall of performance compared to what was expected. For combustors it was pressure loss, pattern factor, and structural integrity; for afterburners it was screech, thrust boost, and buckling. At the time of writing this article, all the problems are mostly solved. The issue with afterburner instability was with the fuel spray nozzles, and mostly the afterburner was stretched.

There was also an issue of flickering, which was solved back in 2010. Another issue is the very low bypass ratio, which leaves less air for cooling. The in-house blades used by GTRE initially failed; this led GTRE to procure disks, blades, and control systems from Snecma. The major issues with Kaveri as of today are resolved. Safran did an audit on the engine a couple of times; they noticed some problems with the afterburner, and they were resolved.

13 engines are made till 2021, including 9 full prototypes (K1 to K9) and 4 core engines, all upgraded to the K9+ standard.

Two of the six Kaveri engines made in 1998 went for testing in Russia at CIMA, and a series of tests over two years were to examine its ability to withstand low pressure and temperature at high altitudes. Later in 2004, Kaveri failed high altitude testing in Russia. By 2008 Kaveri underwent 1,700 hours of ground testing in India and was sent to Russia twice. In 2011-12, Kaveri was tested in Russia by replacing one of the four engines of the Il-76 at a maximum altitude of 12 km and a forward speed of 0.7 Mach.

After conducting thorough engine ground runs, the scientists successfully completed the taxi trials and the maiden flight test of the Kaveri engine with the IL-76 aircraft on November 3rd, 2011, followed by three additional flight tests. The engine was again successfully tested in 2012 at an altitude of 6000 ft at Mach 0.6 speed for 55 hours in Russia. During this testing, Kaveri was able to achieve 49.2 kN dry thrust against a 51 kN target and 70.4 kN wet thrust against 81 kN.

In 2012, it was confirmed that a version of Kaveri (K9+) with its afterburner removed, called the Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE), will be used to power the Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle, or AURA, what is now called the Ghatak UCAV.

During this time there was also a proposal to invite a foreign engine house to solve the problems with the Kaveri engine called K10. This was in discussion since 2008 but was never approached. In 2014 France proposed investing 1 billion euros as part of the Dassault Rafale offsets deal and suggested a joint venture with DRDO to swiftly revive the Kaveri engine program and make it airworthy by 2018. Everyone was fine with it; it required them to do nothing. Later, France offered the M88 core to be used, and this venture fell apart.

Kaveri was using DS blades in the LPT and HPT section, but the KDE is using CMSX4 for HPT blades, as revealed in an interview by Dr. S.V. Ramana Murthy (GTRE Director), who also recommended India to set up its own strategic materials reserve to store or bank critical materials that India will require for making these engines. He also talked about CMSX4 blades being made in India but raw materials still being imported.
We have also developed a TBC coating unit with ARCI, Hyderabad, and DMRL for yttria-stabilized zirconia coating. The project is more or less in research mode and has not been used for production yet. The SX blades in KDE does use TBC coating, but it is applied by some other machine. ARCI has also developed 150 kW Axial Suspension Plasma Spray, an alternative method for TBC. GTRE is also using EDM machines from Makino for cooling holes.

Talking about single-crystal blades, the HAL makes single-crystal blades for AL31FP engines, which power the Su-30MKI of the IAF, using the Bridgman–Stockbarger technique. The AL31 engine is 53% by cost indigenous and 87% of the components. One can imagine the disks and raw materials are still being imported. A contract was signed with HAL to make 240 AL31FP engines to overhaul Su-30s. The indigenous content will climb to 63% and average 54%.

DMRL has also developed their own single-crystal blades, like DMS4 with intricate cooling channels. The DMS4 is officially a 3rd Gen SX alloy, although there exists an argument that DMS4 is a 4th gen alloy; we will stick to the official definition given in papers published by DMRL. DMS4 is in the same league as CMSX10, Rene N6, and TMS75. DMS4 offers 1140°C TET compared to 1104°C of Rene N6. DMS4 is also patented. It also has a metal temperate capability of 1140°C against 1135°C of CMSX10, 1110°C of TMS 75 and 1150°C of TMS 196 (5th gen alloy) used in XF5(49 kN Japanese engine). Also, one can imagine the TET you can achieve with proper use of DMS4 from its heat treatment. The details about DMS4 show that it lies in the same league as some of the alloys.

Info about DMS4 from:













There is also DMD4, a directionally solidified alloy derived from DMS4. Developed as a columnar grain superalloy for cost-effective turbine airfoil parts. Solutionized between 1300°C and 1330°C over 30 hours.
Now the question is why aren’t we using DMS4 if we have it? I think it was because the goal was never the performance; Kaveri already had a lot of trouble back in 2010, and they were dealing with it, and on top of it, introducing an untested, new material in the engine would have complicated their already very complicated problems. Since they have chosen tried and tested CMSX4, a second-generation alloy to be used in HPT of KDE. The Kabini was using Supercast 247A; maybe that's been replaced with the superior DMD4 alloy. Kaveri was also using Superni 718A for HPC. MIDHANI has also developed the Superni-115 LPT blade blank, although it can't be confirmed if Kaveri is using it or not.

DMRL has also made low-pressure turbine blisks for STFE engines. DMRL has also worked on serpentine air cooling for SX blades.

The first KDE was delivered to GTRE in late 2024, soon followed by a second prototype, with both undergoing high-altitude testing in Russia. Where they have more or less achieved their goals. According to a report by ET, on Dec 24, 2024, after completing its high-altitude testing, the engine is ready for real-world evaluation on a flying test bed.

There is another simultaneous project going on where a redesigned afterburner is being made by BrahMos Aerospace, who won the tender in 2020 from GTRE. The AB will then be integrated with KDE and will probably be used on a dual-engine aircraft or LSP Tejas for certification and demonstration purposes.
Today, India has all the building blocks to make its own 4th-gen engine with many PSUs and private players being the first-tier suppliers for global OEMs. A lot of work is being done on composite materials to sustain temperatures as high as 2000°C. Other than GTRE, there is also the Aero Engine Research and Design Center (AERDC) of HAL's engine R&D wing, which has developed the HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines, although the technology is a generation older than what is used in Kaveri. Then there is also MIDHANI, which has developed a wide range of materials since the program began, including materials like Inconel 718.
The majority of problems can be solved, and India can have its own engine with adequate manufacturing and testing infrastructure. But to be optimistic, HAL is setting up a national facility with a 50,000-ton die forge press and a 20,000-ton isothermal press. For many uses, the facility will also make titanium bulkheads for AMCA. The 20,000-ton iso press will be used to make powder metallurgy disks. Then India will need to use blisk for weight reduction of the engine. and use of composite materials in the AB.

Then there is the joint venture deal with foreign OEMs to make a 110 kN engine, which will replace GE F414-IN6 in the future, the front runners of this deal being Rolls-Royce and Safran. Both are offering everything India lacks more or less, and the deal basically includes GTRE getting know-how and know-why, a flying test bed, and other manufacturing and testing infrastructure required to make this engine. The development of this engine will take 10-15 years and will require funding of $4-6 billion USD.
i think current kaveri problem seems to be lack of risk taking ability and lack of funds from GTRE as it says we didnt use latest material in HPT even where we have achieved it which is absurd,
kaveri should be handed over to HAL since they have already made HTFE-25 and previously indigenized engine already like RD-93 and AL-31FP,
HTFE dry engine has good TWR so they might be able to bring weight.

second option is to lure private players, but private player wont come without incentives!
so to achieve this we should form "indian Aero Propultion Mission" just like on the lines of "indian semiconductor mission" and launch PLI or we can call DLI scheme which had been quiet successful , and establish 'aero engine commission' directly under PMO,
so there will be many indian consorium with help of foreign players form JV like organisation.
 
What types of improvement is going on ka
i think current kaveri problem seems to be lack of risk taking ability and lack of funds from GTRE as it says we didnt use latest material in HPT even where we have achieved it which is absurd,
kaveri should be handed over to HAL since they have already made HTFE-25 and previously indigenized engine already like RD-93 and AL-31FP,
HTFE dry engine has good TWR so they might be able to bring weight.

second option is to lure private players, but private player wont come without incentives!
so to achieve this we should form "indian Aero Propultion Mission" just like on the lines of "indian semiconductor mission" and launch PLI or we can call DLI scheme which had been quiet successful , and establish 'aero engine commission' directly under PMO,
so there will be many indian consorium with help of foreign players form JV like organisation.
The main problem is lack of testing facilities and funding. HAL and GTRE both work together to improve the service life of AL 31 and HTFE 25 is only 25 kN engine and flight testing has not happened yet, in high thrust engines you have to develop a lot of technology. We have not invested in kaveri afterburner for 14 years, so you cannot expect everything to be on track. private companies do not have the manpower and guts to invest in this complex project.
 
i think current kaveri problem seems to be lack of risk taking ability and lack of funds from GTRE as it says we didnt use latest material in HPT even where we have achieved it which is absurd,
kaveri should be handed over to HAL since they have already made HTFE-25 and previously indigenized engine already like RD-93 and AL-31FP,
HTFE dry engine has good TWR so they might be able to bring weight.

second option is to lure private players, but private player wont come without incentives!
so to achieve this we should form "indian Aero Propultion Mission" just like on the lines of "indian semiconductor mission" and launch PLI or we can call DLI scheme which had been quiet successful , and establish 'aero engine commission' directly under PMO,
so there will be many indian consorium with help of foreign players form JV like organisation.

This line of thinking ie analytical thinking of any event and theoritising probable causes often overlook the major important factor, that is human decision making. This is a very important part and generally influenced by various factors, many of those are political.

So in short, it was the Govt intention to never have any indigenous engine made in the country, instead under-fund the project to just show enough promise where the foreign govts eventually clear the sales and offer the required engines. It does not matter whether there are delays, IAF prefers the older the better theme anyway. This is a fullproof tried and tested method and it works perfect in sync with every stakeholders involved.
 
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This line of thinking ie analytical thinking of any event and theoritising probable causes often overlook the major important factor, that is human decision making. This is a very important part and generally influenced by various factors, many of those are political.

So in short, it was the Govt intention to never have any indigenous engine made in the country, instead under-fund the project to just show enough promise where the foreign govts eventually clear the sales and offer the required engines. It does not matter whether there are delays, IAF prefers the older the better theme anyway. This is a fullproof tried and tested method and it works perfect in sync with every stakeholders involved.
that's not how it works, those statements are not just air, we have progressed a lot since last 10 years in terms of metallurgy we didn't have single crystal tech in 2010s and kaveri has been refined and all problem of screech, fan flutter and afterburner issues has been resolved,
by that arguments of yours we would have gotten tech transfer by now if it was just to get foreign engine easily,
 
What types of improvement is going on ka

The main problem is lack of testing facilities and funding. HAL and GTRE both work together to improve the service life of AL 31 and HTFE 25 is only 25 kN engine and flight testing has not happened yet, in high thrust engines you have to develop a lot of technology. We have not invested in kaveri afterburner for 14 years, so you cannot expect everything to be on track. private companies do not have the manpower and guts to invest in this complex project.
both HTSE , and HTFE used single crystal turbine blades unlike kaveri engine,
i have no idea about KDE engine perhaps it might be using single crystal turbine blades,
the point is HAL has huge resources unlike GTRE which rely on govt funds, HAL can self fund their programs and don't have to wait,

Don't discredit HTFE-25, with just 350-400Kg weight has thrust of 25KN which is impressive considering all the engine with such thrust weighs more than 500KG like AL-55i and 5 stage HP compressor design which is not less technological by any means, it had Dry thrust to weight ratio of more than 7.27.