HAL LUH / Ka-226: News and Discussions

[randomradio]

To be clear, I was referring to the Indian market only. Airbus sees potential for upto 500 sales for the H125 over the next several years. However, the Indian forces needed over 400 as of yesterday. You can bet they'll pitch the Fennec sooner than later. Let's not forget that Dassault is not setting up the Nagpur assembly line in JV with an Indian partner. And that means no ToT/knowledge transfer to Indian industry. The French get to have their cake and eat it too. Well, we might not have a home-grown exec jet like the Falcon, but we can't let LUH orders be cannibalized.

There is a risk to LUH in terms of split orders, but the immediate requirement is about 200 for the split, not 400. LUH is assured of the other 200. The Russians are offering the Ka-226T again, but this time with a Russian engine.

The Nagpur line is owned by DRAL, not Dassault, where the majority partner is ADAG. Dassault it setting up an MRO facility in Jewar on their own.

Competition is needed, no doubt. But they're setting up a captive facility for H125 with no local participation. That way they can check all the boxes in terms of MII and not give away any IP. And this helo has been around for decades.

The H125 deal is with Tata.

Personally, I think Ka-226 is over-engineered for a light helo. Complex co-axial rotors, modular cabins and what not. More expensive to fly and maintain than a Fennec or LUH.

It only seems so, but it's not. It's the opposite of what you say. Mainly because it does not have a tail rotor. Even though it's coaxial, the rotors are still a single system. There are no wires and control rods running all across the helicopter. Overall, the rotors are harder to manufacture, but easier to maintain. And coaxial rotors have been designed to function in high stress environments like Siberia and the Himalayas further increasing their maintainability in such environments.

The cabin being modular is of even higher significance in terms of maintenance 'cause it can be separated from the helicopter. It does wonders for availability as well.

In any case, Fennec is far easier to maintain than the LUH and it still lost to the Ka-226T when LCC was introduced. That tail rotor is seriously expensive and a major point of failure.

Last I checked, Sikorsky was still fixing some issues with regard to rotor down-wash.

Usual jhanjhat.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Frankly I really don't know what this guy is on about. HAL Tumkur has the ability to mfg 60 LUH going upto 90 units per annum. A 400 unit order @60 units p.a. can be executed in less than 7 years.

PM unveils India's biggest helicopter manufacturing facility in Tumakuru

Bengaluru-headquartered HAL plans to produce more than 1,000 helicopters in the range of 3-15 tonne with a total business of more than ₹4 lakh crore over a period of 20 years at this facility in Gubbi taluk

www.thehindu.com

Further the LUH has been designed to operate at > 6000 mtrs & for good reason . It's meant to replace the HAL Cheetahs. Besides the LUH has not even made its debut & we have guys here speculating on everything from its performance to maintenance etc.

Are we to understand HAL has learnt absolutely nothing from the 20 year plus developmental experience with the ALH after building & maintaining close to 400 units ?

The Ka-226 proposal has to be seen in context of the LUH's progress. It was our Plan - B. Assuming we were indulging in greasing our relationship with Russia , it vanished the moment Russia initiated the Ukraine war & the west imposed economic sanctions.

Every time we initiate a new purchase program with Russia we risk further irking the west which means we'd do it only in unavoidable situations viz the S-400 or the Su-57 or the Voronezh OTHR . Incidentally you're not going to hear much chatter from the West on the latter if we go in for it , the Su-57 , of course , is a different matter , but we can always claim we've invested 250 million USD in it long ago .

I've been at pains trying to highlight since many years on this forum that imports if any will NOT be extended to supporting platforms like transport , training etc IF we've developed such capacities in house & that in future the only country we'd extend this privilege to is the US. No clue why this is so hard to understand.

Finally the Fennec is already in service with PA. Remind me what was the principal reason the F-16s were at a disadvantage in the MMRCA & now the MRFA tender.

 

[randomradio]

HAL may have the capacity to build more helicopters, but it's the same as MDL's capacity to build more submarines than ordered. The same line can build other stuff too.

If we go by actual numbers required by the military, once IBGs are formed, we could have as many as 140 or 150 of them, the army's inventory today is only enough to equip each IBG with just 2 helicopters. The plan is to climb up to 4 in 10 years. Ideally, it needs to be a full army squadron/company's worth. So an IBG would typically need at least 10-12, that's anywhere between 1500 to 1800 helicopters, not counting evac, C&C and EW. So there's enough space for 2 types of light and medium each for the Aviation Corps.

In the US, a division is supported by 65 helicopters, mainly Blackhawks types and Chinooks. If we go by their numbers, our forces will need 3000, so getting to half that with a combination of light and medium is necessary. So we could be talking about 1000-1200 light and 600-800 mediums versus their combination of medium/heavies.

Furthermore, without near 100% control over all related technolgies, it's dumb to rely on HAL alone. All their helicopters only have 60% indigenization. LUH is at 65%. And if something goes wrong, like a crash, the entire fleet will be grounded and at the mercy of a foreign supplier.

So we not only need massive numbers, we also need to be in control of the main suppliers or at least have competing suppliers on the block. Hence the need to complete the development of HTSE-1200 and at least fully indigenize the light requirement, both utility and attack at the bare minimum.

People don't realize that both Dhruv and LUH are a result of the forces telling DPSUs to build something they can use and it will be supported. Both were the result of no-competition clauses with guaranteed orders gained via nomination, the same as LCA, TEDBF, and AMCA. In reality, neither Dhruv nor LUH can penetrate civilian markets because competitors have real helicopters. That's why HAL is unable to get a private partner to market Dhruv to civilians. Funny how the awesome Dhruv cannot compete outside.

The US will not place roadblocks for trivial dual-use tech from Russia. Their goal is to stop us from investing in core exportable technologies, but there's a time limit to how long they can prevent that. Between 2030-35, we will have achieved almost all our indigenization goals for generic stuff, paving the way forward for importing exotic technologies we are yet to develop. And our economy will be large enough to suffer through minor blowbacks of the time, 'cause even if we do import, it won't be in the massive numbers necessary to destabilize relations or upset the global market.

And the US pressure is limited by technology too. For example, the US couldn't stop the S-400 deal simply because they couldn't offer an equivalent at the same price point using Patriot and THAAD. Similarly, the Russians have a lot of exotic technologies that are unique enough to go through with minimal blowback.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The IA itself has projected a requirement of ~ 200 LUH. For perspective it used to operate ~ 250 nos HAL Cheetah , Chetak & Chitals.

Army to start phasing out Cheetah, Chetak helicopters from 2027

Army to phase out Cheetah, Chetak helicopters in 2027; replace with indigenously-developed LUH. TTL of Cheetah, Chetak helicopters to end in 2027; Army to replace with indigenously-developed LUH. Army to phase out vintage Cheetah, Chetak helicopters in 2027; replace with indigenously-developed...

www.thehindu.com

Assuming they'd revert to their numbers in due course that's still ~ 250. Let's round it off to 300 plus another 300 for the other services. That's still 600 units.

I wonder where does the comparison with the US come into the picture. The US has 800 bases around the world with the US Army expected to operate out of these bases on call 24x7 to respond to any situation from HADR to quick or prolonged interventions in any part of the world. That's their remit & that's the reason they've been equipped the way they are .

Indigenization efforts are on thru the realisation of the HTSE & other tech going into the ALH & its derivatives , LUH , LCH etc which should be available around the time of its MLU.

If something goes wrong with those hptrs they'd be grounded like it is with such platforms across the world from an ordinary utility hptr to exotic tech like the F-35 unless the solution offered is to build redundancies in which case what happens if we face the same problem with such redundancies ? Build redundancies for such redundancies ?

We seem to have a problem if we rely on external COTS or associated equipment easily available in international markets & we also seem to have a problem if all such vital tech is sought to be indigenously developed running in parallel to the said program in development as we attempted with the LCA.

With other less informed people I'd put down such behaviour to non application of mind . What do I put down this behaviour in case of the said person to ? If I write 8 pm induced behaviour , I'd be accused of ad hominem & personal attacks.

That's precisely the reason this is fourth or fifth post I'm penning on why the hptr division of HAL ought to be carved out into a separate entity in order to commercially explore & exploit what's essentially a military platform else HAL in the shape it is in today is in no position to cater or even pay attention to this market & we'd sure be surrendering this space to Foreign OEMs or giving it to them on a platter like we're seeing with the H-125 .

I can bet my entire bank balance in a decade from now TASL will still be a partner in the same JV or function as a glorified labour contractor as it is doing today. Bookmark this post & show it to me or read it on 22/01/2035 in case I'm not around & check for how accurate it is ?!

 

[randomradio]

Even if the US forces are assigned bases over the world, I'm only talking about units organically connected to the divisions, not their strategic lift capabilities. For example, 10 divisions have 65 transport helis each, that's 650 helis. But their total fleet is over 3000 helis.

In an IBG, helis have to be connected to the unit organically, and that alone should be a company's worth, that's 10 operational and 2 in reserve. So 150 will need 1800. And this is only for Aviation Corps, not the IAF, which has the strategic lift mandate, but it's not a lot, probably 400-500 here. So the military's in the market for at least 2200 helis, with only funds being the main challenge.

Without near 100% indigenization, the reason why we need multiple suppliers is whenever there is a crash or some other issue, the FOEM is very likely to push negotiations towards their advantage. And in some cases, especially in case of crashes, it affects their reputation and that makes them less likely to cooperate, which in turns affects the reputation of the client as well. Case in point, Ecuador returned Dhruvs back to India due to such issues. The same with Russia when we had ejection seat issues with MKI. Sukhoi claimed it's human error until Russian units too started facing the same issue in Russia, which forced them to eat their words and get to fixing it.

The former is something we learned through experience over many decades, and the latter we learned through the experience of the MKI, don't use something the captive forces themselves are not using. Hence why SE MII and MMRCA/MRFA were for proven 4.5th gen jets. That's why FGFA was rejected, and Checkmate has no chance. That's also why the Malaysians decided to go with the FA-50. And both ALH and LUH fall in the both categories to some extent due to the low amount of indigenization.

And because the forces are willing to risk things with ALH and LUH, plus the actual heli requirement is much bigger than people think, there is an opportunity for FOEMs to bring in their wares too. Nothing new's gonna happen for the next few years, but imports will come once new indigenous products are rolling out of factories (LUH and IMRH).

HAL will never be split. All its divisions feed into eachother and they will all have to stay merged until someday it's privatized. When that happens, the govt will just retire most of their useless employees a la BSNL/MTNL and sell it to the highest bidder.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The ORBAT of US Army is at best a reference point for the IA not an example to be emulated just as we learn from the various strategies & tactics they employ to prosecute their aims.

Did I actually read what I just read ? He's proposing we have a hptr per company in the IBGs ?!?

Man should be sent forthwith to the PLA strategy & planning division. Evidently he hasn't heard of drones . Evidently he's also high on his own supply.

In other words no indigenization , only imports. Another low even by his de rigueur low standards.

So let me get this right , the H-125 is being assembled not even mfgd here thru a FAL & we're having an idle discussion on a non event of Foreign OEMs coming to India to supplement desi ones in fulfilling the services's total requirements of hptrs which they themselves have provided figures for , umpteen number of times & which is in the public domain & for which HAL has recently commissioned a hptr factory in Tumkur with an annual capacity of upto 90 unit p.a.

This guy is either not gainfully employed or has plenty of spare energy or is totally unemployed.

I was suggesting the right course of action for HAL not what is likely to happen which is continuation of the same for the foreseeable future . Unlike RST I make it a point to clearly write what my suppositions theories presumptions wish lists are like everybody else does except THE ONE.