HAL LUH / Ka-226: News and Discussions

zapper said:
We should've abandoned this and gone for the LUH in full.
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I wonder where is that "MoD expert" who suggested MoD to drop NUH project and go for Dhruvs for Navy.

Is he sleeping? Or busy counting the transactions in his bank accounts?

HAL LUH is actually flying and proved most of its capabilities.

Naval Dhruv is a prototype on paper still !
Gautam said:
India, Russia conclude price talks for 200 Kamov copters

By Ajay Banerjee
New Delhi, January 19
View attachment 13347

More than four years after India and Russia signed an inter-governmental pact allowing Russia to supply 200 Kamov Ka-226T helicopters, the price negotiations have been concluded. A formal contract may be signed in the next few months.

The price for the 200 copters would be around $4 billion (Rs 28,000 crore approximately), sources said. This would also include transfer of 50% technology, including structure of the copter, its blades and landing gear, all important for metallurgy and transfer of technology.

The Kamov 226T uses an engine made by French major Safran. India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Safran already have an existing joint venture to produce engines for the advanced light helicopter made by the HAL. A facility

to manufacture KA-226T helicopters in India has been created at HAL’s newly set up plant at Tumkuru, near Bengaluru. A new created entity called Indo Russian Helicopter Pvt. Ltd. (IRHL) will produce these copters. Once the domestic demand is met, India and Russia also intend to export Kamov-226Ts to other countries.

The Kamov is a replacement for the obsolete Cheetah and Chetak fleets of the Indian armed forces. The three services need 495 light-utility helicopters (LUH) to replace Cheetah/Chetak fleet of helicopters. The Army requires 259, IAF 125 and Navy around 111 such helicopters equipped with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities.

Cheetah/Chetak helicopters are based on the 1950s’ designed Alouette Aérospatiale 315B Lama of France.

While the Naval tender is separate from this contract, the demand for some 384 light copters will be met by the Kamov and the ALH. The HAL is producing 24-26 helicopters per year and the Ministry of Defence wants it to produce at least 80 per annum.

India and Russia concluded an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) for 200 helicopters in October 2015. As per the original tender, 60 helicopters will be imported from Russia and the rest will be built in India. A joint venture (JV) has already been set up between HAL and Russia’s Rostec – JSC Rosoboronexport and Russian Helicopters.

India, Russia conclude price talks for 200 Kamov copters
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Waste of dollars!
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
I wonder where is that "MoD expert" who suggested MoD to drop NUH project and go for Dhruvs for Navy.

Is he sleeping? Or busy counting the transactions in his bank accounts?

HAL LUH is actually flying and proved most of its capabilities.

Naval Dhruv is a prototype on paper still !
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One reason we're going with the Ka-226 is we don't want to loose our strategic relations with Russia since we've already diversified our defence procurement with most of the current deals being from France, US & Israel. India still needs Russia's veto power in UNSC

Additionally, the top brass of IA & IAF always favor kickbacks over indigenous platforms unlike IN which has historically opted for localized production or indigenous platforms. Naval Dhruv might still be at a nascent stage but it's still a better option since it's a derivative of the existing ALH for which the supply chain/production line largely exists

Since the total requirement for all three forces is 500 helos, even if 200 Ka-226 are procured...we can go for 300 LUH with most of the components outsourced to private firms while HAL acting as the lead integrator
 
zapper said:
One reason we're going with the Ka-226 is we don't want to loose our strategic relations with Russia since we've already diversified our defence procurement with most of the current deals being from France, US & Israel. India still needs Russia's veto power in UNSC

Additionally, the top brass of IA & IAF always favor kickbacks over indigenous platforms unlike IN which has historically opted for localized production or indigenous platforms. Naval Dhruv might still be at a nascent stage but it's still a better option since it's a derivative of the existing ALH for which the supply chain/production line largely exists

Since the total requirement for all three forces is 500 helos, even if 200 Ka-226 are procured...we can go for 300 LUH with most of the components outsourced to private firms while HAL acting as the lead integrator
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1. To retain our leverage over Russia we can invest in things where there is no domestic option available. Like additional Mi17s (we needed 48 more but no deal signed yet), Russian offer for MCMV collaboration, deal for 6 more VVERs, etc.

2. 384 LUH is way better than 187 LUH. And further Ka226T will also be produced by HAL, means duplication of efforts and wastage of money.

There is zero justification for Ka226T today.

Earlier I used to say to @Kimran that Ka226T will come quickly but LUH will take time, but the way things are, we will likely have LUH earlier.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
1. To retain our leverage over Russia we can invest in things where there is no domestic option available. Like additional Mi17s (we needed 48 more but no deal signed yet), Russian offer for MCMV collaboration, deal for 6 more VVERs, etc.

2. 384 LUH is way better than 187 LUH. And further Ka226T will also be produced by HAL, means duplication of efforts and wastage of money.

There is zero justification for Ka226T today.

Earlier I used to say to @Kimran that Ka226T will come quickly but LUH will take time, but the way things are, we will likely have LUH earlier.
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I'll repost what I said in Post 117.

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This is same as 200 each of SE MII and TE MII for fighter jets. So 200 each of LUH and Ka-226T. LUH is single engine, Ka-226T is twin engine. The Ka-226T can be used in more dangerous areas where weather is murder on the engines. So in case one of the engines fail, the Ka-226T carrying multiple people won't crash.

Also, the Ka-226T lacks a long tail, so its compact size allows it to be used alongside cliffs and areas where space is constrained. And unlike other helicopters, it's extremely modular. The detachable cabin can be changed to suit the role, passenger, troop transport, ambulance, SAR etc. It is also significantly more stable and is much more agile than other helicopter designs, which is a big plus point over mountains. The rear opening is also very useful, makes it much more easy to get in and out of the helicopter. It has twice the payload compared to LUH.

If Ka-226T was Indian and LUH was Russian, then we wouldn't have gone for the LUH, the entire fleet would have been Ka-226T. Even though LUH is Indian, the Ka-226T is simply a far superior design, and this is something only Kamov could accomplish reliably.

Another plan, which failed, was for private sector to build Ka-226T, but the govt refused to nominate Reliance, the main contender, and the Russians refused to deal with a company that wasn't nominated. GoI later nominated HAL and that's why HAL got both LUH and Ka-226T. The Russians were more interested in dealing with Reliance, but wouldn't work with them without a nomination. So this was a complete bureaucratic failure and has since been corrected.
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384 Ka-226T is better than 187 LUH actually.
 
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randomradio said:
I'll repost what I said in Post 117.

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This is same as 200 each of SE MII and TE MII for fighter jets. So 200 each of LUH and Ka-226T. LUH is single engine, Ka-226T is twin engine. The Ka-226T can be used in more dangerous areas where weather is murder on the engines. So in case one of the engines fail, the Ka-226T carrying multiple people won't crash.

Also, the Ka-226T lacks a long tail, so its compact size allows it to be used alongside cliffs and areas where space is constrained. And unlike other helicopters, it's extremely modular. The detachable cabin can be changed to suit the role, passenger, troop transport, ambulance, SAR etc. It is also significantly more stable and is much more agile than other helicopter designs, which is a big plus point over mountains. The rear opening is also very useful, makes it much more easy to get in and out of the helicopter. It has twice the payload compared to LUH.

If Ka-226T was Indian and LUH was Russian, then we wouldn't have gone for the LUH, the entire fleet would have been Ka-226T. Even though LUH is Indian, the Ka-226T is simply a far superior design, and this is something only Kamov could accomplish reliably.

Another plan, which failed, was for private sector to build Ka-226T, but the govt refused to nominate Reliance, the main contender, and the Russians refused to deal with a company that wasn't nominated. GoI later nominated HAL and that's why HAL got both LUH and Ka-226T. The Russians were more interested in dealing with Reliance, but wouldn't work with them without a nomination. So this was a complete bureaucratic failure and has since been corrected.
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384 Ka-226T is better than 187 LUH actually.
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Comparison with fighter jets is not good. There is no counterpart of Rafale or F16 in domestic industry as of now.

The only advantage of Ka226T over LUH will be it's ability to operate in few specialized theaters which will need twin engines, short length and better control due to its kamov special rotors. For that we can simply buy 60-70 from the Russian line (waise bhi they indent to build around 50 I think, so it's no loss for Russia). Rest HAL LUH will be for India what Bell 206/407 was , is and will be for USA.

And no I will prefer HAL build quality any day over Russian built quality in helicopters. Ka226T will have problems in maintenance too coz of its complex gearbox/engine assembly and will have low availability.

And it's 2020s now. Twin engines A321 are flying over Atlantic. The engine of HAL LUH is a reliable machine , we can depend on it.

I will only say that yes, if Ka226T was Indian, I would have agreed to all Ka226T fleet , but no , it's not. At most order 50-60 if we really need those. Else HAL LUH has pretty much covered all the bases.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
The only advantage of Ka226T over LUH will be it's ability to operate in few specialized theaters which will need twin engines, short length and better control due to its kamov special rotors. For that we can simply buy 60-70 from the Russian line (waise bhi they indent to build around 50 I think, so it's no loss for Russia). Rest HAL LUH will be for India what Bell 206/407 was , is and will be for USA.
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It's the opposite. Those few specialized theatres is pretty much our entire border from Kashmir to AP. Even in deserts the Ka-226T is the better option. So it leaves LUH only a few hundred kilometers to operate in safely.

And no I will prefer HAL build quality any day over Russian built quality in helicopters. Ka226T will have problems in maintenance too coz of its complex gearbox/engine assembly and will have low availability.
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There's no difference. Both LUH and Ka-226T are being built by HAL.

And it's 2020s now. Twin engines A321 are flying over Atlantic. The engine of HAL LUH is a reliable machine , we can depend on it.
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Such arguments fly against the face of logic. There's a reason why people prefer twin engine over dangerous terrain, actual flying experience.

We have crashed far too many Chetaks than was necessary. And most would have survived if they were twin engine. Almost 200 crashes out of the 600+ we have operated in the last 2 decades alone.

Army wives seek meeting with PM after 'flying coffin' helicopters claim 294 lives | Daily Mail Online
A group of women married to Army officers who fly and service the Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, want these archaic flying machines to be put out of commission, after they were involved in 191 crashes in the past two decades.
 
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randomradio said:
It's the opposite. Those few specialized theatres is pretty much our entire border from Kashmir to AP. Even in deserts the Ka-226T is the better option. So it leaves LUH only a few hundred kilometers to operate in safely.



There's no difference. Both LUH and Ka-226T are being built by HAL.



Such arguments fly against the face of logic. There's a reason why people prefer twin engine over dangerous terrain, actual flying experience.

We have crashed far too many Chetaks than was necessary. And most would have survived if they were twin engine. Almost 200 crashes out of the 600+ we have operated in the last 2 decades alone.

Army wives seek meeting with PM after 'flying coffin' helicopters claim 294 lives | Daily Mail Online
A group of women married to Army officers who fly and service the Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, want these archaic flying machines to be put out of commission, after they were involved in 191 crashes in the past two decades.
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You have any similar video pic news where Ka 226 done similar high altitude test?

 
Arpit said:
You have any similar video pic news where Ka 226 done similar high altitude test?

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Dunno if there's a video around, I doubt it's available, but Ka-226T completed flight trials in India a decade ago in 2 separate tenders. So it has been tested in the mountains alongside a whole host of other light helicopters.
 
Gautam said:
HAL was doing serial production before IOC ?
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Yep. But those LSPs, instead of handing them over to the IAF, were converted into prototypes for flight testing.

PAK FA is in the LSP stage right now. F-35 exited the LSP stage only this time last year, after it was given IOC.
 
randomradio said:
Yep. But those LSPs, instead of handing them over to the IAF, were converted into prototypes for flight testing.

PAK FA is in the LSP stage right now. F-35 exited the LSP stage only this time last year, after it was given IOC.
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What about LUH then ? 3 prototypes built, so already in LSP ? I thought production after IOC was called LSP, prototypes were not included in serial production.
 
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