IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[Kshithij Sharma]

You seriously want us to be like Korea? No actual economic development, just development of new missiles thats all . the people suffering.
Sorry, I do not share your dream

Do you know the difference between North Korea and USA? USA has abundant Natural Resource and oil while North Korea has decent natural resource except for oil. So, the only way North Korea is going to become rich is by importing Natural resource from outside. South Korea, for example, is getting resources imported from outside. As a result of this, they are a vassal state of USA. USA even keeps its military there, impeaches presidents to exercise control. If that is the other option, then North Korea is definitely better than South Korea. SOuth Koreans are slaves while North Koea at least has autonomy. If the question is whether you want to be free but poor or a slave who is rich for the time being (till oil runs out) and then again back to a poor slave for generations to come, it is better to be free.

Current gen AESA radars are atleast a decade away from catching up to western standards in terms of peak power, range, miniaturization, GaN etc. The bigger radars, for example the ones mounted on our AEW&C and proposed AWACS are fine. But for Medium and Smaller radar apertures, we're still behind. Why do you think we're still importing those radars that are being used for our frontline systems? Eg - MF-STAR, other volume search radars, GS100 LLTR, Medium Power Radars (MPR) currently being installed in the airfields, new Russian radar for MKI etc. The Uttam for LCA is fine as a first step since it won't be a frontline fighter and will have enough ground-radar support to overcome its shortfalls

Currently UTTAM radar has already been made. But, it doesn't have SAR ability. It only has air-air ability. DRDO is absorbing the Israeli technology and a final version is said to be made in 2019. GaN is the latest one and that is also in parallel construction. Since, GaN is a different technology, the start has to be done from scratch. India is about 3-4 years behind that. As of now, none has a mature GaN radar. So, the difference in radar technology in India is just 3-4 years at best, not a decade away. India is importing MF-STAR for the time being only. As we have seen recently, seeker for Akash has been made indigenously (can be used in Barak-8). Same way, in a few years, MF-Star will be replaced too.

AMCA is not a derivative of FGFA, rather technologies developed for FGFA will flow into AMCA. Both are completely different projects. And no, the design hasn't been completed, it is still in the detailed design phase. Once that is complete around 2025, FSED funds will be allotted for prototype build and testing.
Because US, Russian and China all have decades of experience building fighter aircrafts and they already had the necessary infrastructure needed for the development of a new generation fighter aircraft. Remember, when LCA was conceived, the first one and a half decades went into the infrastructure buildup in parallel to the airframe development before the actual construction of the prototype began.
The same thing is happening now, DRDO has recently commissions an RCS testing facility, an EM emission testing facility, larger supersonic/hypersonic wind tunnels etc.
AMCA will be ready for serial production post 2035.

AMCA design has been finalised and funds sanctioned for prototype building. RCS and wind tunnel tests are over. AMCA subsystems are being developed in parallel. FGFA has been postponed and mostly canceled in favour of AMCA. Here is the source for RCS testing facility opened in 2015 : India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector - Page 41 - Bharat Rakshak

The way I see from China, Russia etc, the time to make a 5th generation fighter is utmost 15 years. For Russian Su57, it was 10 years. So, considering that India has made the design final by 2017, the radars, EW, avionics for Tejas is also being developed with an intention of using it as 2 in 1 solution for AMCA too, I see AMCA rolling out by 2030. AMCA building is not independent of Tejas and that makes the development of AMCA faster. Unlike USA/Russia, India was lagging behind its 4th generation planes and hence decided to merge the 4th and 5th generation plane designs in the same process to quicken the development. So, when you see that AMCA is a spin off from Tejas, it will be easier to udnerstand why AMCA will roll out quickly.

LCA production line will not go above 24/year with just a total requirement of 400 SEF for the IAF. Even the 24/year figure will only be reached when Mk-2 starts coming online, after which the production line will be converted to assemble AMCA.
But if a foreign OEM with an SP starts a parallel production line, IAF can get fighter from both the lines at the same time, meaning they can fill the shortage faster. And since the foreign OEM invested all that money into opening that new production line, they have to find ways of sustaining it, which mean GoI or India won't be loosing money if they have to shut it down later.

Why are you sure that orders won't go above 400? Planes are not luxury goods but are critical goods which are needed for defence and offence. Why is there a cap on the number of planes required when it is a critical good?

Also, let us say, the cap is 400 planes. Even here, it is not necessary that the assembly line has exactly 8 planes each. We can have 5-6 etc. Why insist on 24 Tejas assembly line and 16 F16 assembly line instead of 40 Tejas assembly line. If ypur concern is that the lines will go idle as the long term production requirements, retrofitting etc is not 40, then why not produce Tejas at 28/year? It is still better than importing.

The infrastructure creation is just an investment. It is not wasteful. If you are speaking of waste, defence expenditures itself is waste. But, that is the point of a nation - to defend itself. It is OK to sacrifice luxury goods, reduce standards of living, increase tax etc for defence. Defence is of paramount importance. There is no second to defence

 

[Nick]

Currently UTTAM radar has already been made. But, it doesn't have SAR ability. It only has air-air ability. DRDO is absorbing the Israeli technology and a final version is said to be made in 2019. GaN is the latest one and that is also in parallel construction. Since, GaN is a different technology, the start has to be done from scratch. India is about 3-4 years behind that. As of now, none has a mature GaN radar. So, the difference in radar technology in India is just 3-4 years at best, not a decade away. India is importing MF-STAR for the time being only. As we have seen recently, seeker for Akash has been made indigenously (can be used in Barak-8). Same way, in a few years, MF-Star will be replaced too.

Uttam is operational? No. Can it match the range of a similar sized radar? NO Does it have all the modes of a contemporary fighter radar? No. Are we developing the entire Uttam radar by ourselves? No. GaN modules are already in production. Manufactures like SAAB EDS, Raytheon, Thales etc are currently integrating them on fighter radars. Do we have any manufacturer that makes GaN modules in an industrial scale? No. Do we have the facilities to mass produce them. No. How many years just to create the infrastructure? Easily 3 years. So, when will we catch upto today's level? In around 7 to 8 years. Will the others wait for us to catch up? No. So in total how many years to really catch up with them? More than 10 years!
Honestly, i feel like i'm explaining stuff to a 12 year old!

Do you know the differences between a missile seeker and a fully fledged radar system mounted on aerial platforms?? (facepalm)

AMCA design has been finalised and funds sanctioned for prototype building. RCS and wind tunnel tests are over. AMCA subsystems are being developed in parallel. FGFA has been postponed and mostly canceled in favour of AMCA. Here is the source for RCS testing facility opened in 2015 : India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector - Page 41 - Bharat Rakshak

The way I see from China, Russia etc, the time to make a 5th generation fighter is utmost 15 years. For Russian Su57, it was 10 years. So, considering that India has made the design final by 2017, the radars, EW, avionics for Tejas is also being developed with an intention of using it as 2 in 1 solution for AMCA too, I see AMCA rolling out by 2030. AMCA building is not independent of Tejas and that makes the development of AMCA faster. Unlike USA/Russia, India was lagging behind its 4th generation planes and hence decided to merge the 4th and 5th generation plane designs in the same process to quicken the development. So, when you see that AMCA is a spin off from Tejas, it will be easier to understand why AMCA will roll out quickly.

Show me the govt reports that says the funds have been released for prototype building. Either prove that or shut up!!
AMCA has completed preliminary design review (PDR) and the design has been frozen. Go learn the difference between PDR and Detailed Design Review (DDR) and then we'll talk more about AMCA.

So the Su-57 is in serial production? All tests completed? Accepted into VKS service?
Russian with all its infinite experience and resources are still finding it difficult to complete a 5th gen project and here you're saying AMCA is a walk in the park!

Now you're saying AMCA is a merge of 4th and 5th generation plane design? Do you even know how each generation is classified?

Why are you sure that orders won't go above 400? Planes are not luxury goods but are critical goods which are needed for defence and offence. Why is there a cap on the number of planes required when it is a critical good?

Also, let us say, the cap is 400 planes. Even here, it is not necessary that the assembly line has exactly 8 planes each. We can have 5-6 etc. Why insist on 24 Tejas assembly line and 16 F16 assembly line instead of 40 Tejas assembly line. If your concern is that the lines will go idle as the long term production requirements, retrofitting etc is not 40, then why not produce Tejas at 28/year? It is still better than importing.

The infrastructure creation is just an investment. It is not wasteful. If you are speaking of waste, defence expenditures itself is waste. But, that is the point of a nation - to defend itself. It is OK to sacrifice luxury goods, reduce standards of living, increase tax etc for defence. Defence is of paramount importance. There is no second to defence

The orders won't go above 400 because IAF said so. That's how many they want to have a balanced fleet of SE, MCA and HCA aircrafts.

To understand about production rate and its impact on costs, read the document i sent you. Everything is explained there, in much better way that i can explain in this limited space. If you have any doubts while reading, i'll be happy to clear it for you.

But please stop ranting about stuff that you barely know and without even thinking if it is actually viable.

 

[ghostwhowalks]

In all this the biggest take away for me the the support Iaf is showing for the LCA. This is contrary to the perception created in the recent past about Iaf treating the lca like a step child. A combination of Rafale Su30 and LCA will give IAF all the range and fighting flexibility it needs in the foreseeable future and give a great cushion in terms of timelines for FGFA development and induction. Throw in the M2k, jaguar and the mig 29 numbers in the middle x and we are looking at a very potent air arm.

The f16 just doesn't seem to fit into this mix and certainly not at 145M a pop

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Uttam is operational? No. Can it match the range of a similar sized radar? NO Does it have all the modes of a contemporary fighter radar? No. Are we developing the entire Uttam radar by ourselves? No. GaN modules are already in production. Manufactures like SAAB EDS, Raytheon, Thales etc are currently integrating them on fighter radars. Do we have any manufacturer that makes GaN modules in an industrial scale? No. Do we have the facilities to mass produce them. No. How many years just to create the infrastructure? Easily 3 years. So, when will we catch upto today's level? In around 7 to 8 years. Will the others wait for us to catch up? No. So in total how many years to really catch up with them? More than 10 years!
Honestly, i feel like i'm explaining stuff to a 12 year old!

No GaN radar is active in aerial mode. If you have source, please state. Having big GaN module in Giraffe type radar. GaN module is in prototype in USA and not being integrated with anything. Miniaturisation is yet to be done. So, India is not far behind. Also, radars can be imported as a standalone equipment for the time being. So, when will USA make GaN radar for F35? 2020-2021. When will India make a GaN radar? 2023-2024. Is this far behind? I don't think so. When will UTTAM radar with GaAs be completed with all the modes? 2019-2020. How can you say that its range will be poor? Do you have reason to say that? Because you think it is cool to simply say so.

Honestly, I am feeling like you are interested in your own agenda and propaganda.

Show me the govt reports that says the funds have been released for prototype building. Either prove that or shut up!!
AMCA has completed preliminary design review (PDR) and the design has been frozen. Go learn the difference between PDR and Detailed Design Review (DDR) and then we'll talk more about AMCA.

So the Su-57 is in serial production? All tests completed? Accepted into VKS service?
Russian with all its infinite experience and resources are still finding it difficult to complete a 5th gen project and here you're saying AMCA is a walk in the park!

Now you're saying AMCA is a merge of 4th and 5th generation plane design? Do you even know how each generation is classified?

Su57 will be serially produced next year: Serial Production of Su-57 Fighter Jet Starting Next Year

AMCA has completed PDR and that will lead to prototyping. After prototyping, further review called Critical Design Review (CDR) will take place and modifications suggested and new prototype with the modifications made. The process repeats till the CDR is satisfied. Then Production Readiness Review (PRR) is done to check for infrastructure, subsystem availability etc. After PRR is completed, special production is made and IOC obtained.

So, since you have agreed that PDR is completed, isn't prototype the next obvious step? What is wrong with you?

The difference between 4th and 5th generation is quite blurry. With Tejas, F16 acquiring FBW, AESA, EW, SPJ, these planes can be considered as 4.5 generation. So, due to this blurryness, the 5th generation AMCA can be made using the developmental process of Tejas MK2.

The orders won't go above 400 because IAF said so. That's how many they want to have a balanced fleet of SE, MCA and HCA aircrafts.

To understand about production rate and its impact on costs, read the document i sent you. Everything is explained there, in much better way that i can explain in this limited space. If you have any doubts while reading, i'll be happy to clear it for you.

But please stop ranting about stuff that you barely know and without even thinking if it is actually viable.

Orders are made according to requirements. IAF doesn't determine the requirements, situation does. There is a reason USA, Russia builds arms and has large MIC.

Defence production is not just about getting planes but needing planes at the right time with right maintenance and in right numbers. I can understand if you are speaking of lisptick production or toy production. The infrastructure for defence production is an investment and not cost.

Since you are insisting that 45 squadron is enough, I want to ask a few questions:
1) On what basis is the squadron strength fixed? How do you know that more squadrons won't be needed? Isn't the need dependent on others' capability rather than absolute?
2) Say, tomorrow, Saudi decides to gift 50 billion dollars to Pakistan and Pakistan decides to buy F16 planes from it. That will be roughly 400 F16 at the cost of 125 million a piece. What will you do? Since you were so concerned about cost of infrastructure, you won't have any infrastructure to ramp production when needed.
3) A war breaks out, and lot of F16 gets hit with initial salvos of missile on the hangar or by jihadis as seen in Pathankot etc, how do you intend to build new planes or repair the damaged ones?

Did you get my point now as to why India needs only indigenous manufacturing?

 

[vstol Jockey]

In all this the biggest take away for me the the support Iaf is showing for the LCA. This is contrary to the perception created in the recent past about Iaf treating the lca like a step child. A combination of Rafale Su30 and LCA will give IAF all the range and fighting flexibility it needs in the foreseeable future and give a great cushion in terms of timelines for FGFA development and induction. Throw in the M2k, jaguar and the mig 29 numbers in the middle x and we are looking at a very potent air arm.

The f16 just doesn't seem to fit into this mix and certainly not at 145M a pop

It will be extremely stupid for PMO to force IAF to acquire a new platform and complicate the logistics for IAF. we have paid a very high price for getting India specific changes done in Rafale. As the number of rafale fighters rise, the overall cost will continue to come down. The benefits in terms of enhanced transfer of technology thru offsets can't be quantified. France must ensure a much superior LCA Mk1A and must somehow fit the OSF in the radar module specifically created for LCA. That will give it a decisive edge over F-16. Now that IAF is supporting LCA wholeheartedly, GOI must completely dump SE program and go for more Rafale and LCAs.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

It will be extremely stupid for PMO to force IAF to acquire a new platform and complicate the logistics for IAF. we have paid a very high price for getting India specific changes done in Rafale. As the number of rafale fighters rise, the overall cost will continue to come down. The benefits in terms of enhanced transfer of technology thru offsets can't be quantified. France must ensure a much superior LCA Mk1A and must somehow fit the OSF in the radar module specifically created for LCA. That will give it a decisive edge over F-16. Now that IAF is supporting LCA wholeheartedly, GOI must completely dump SE program and go for more Rafale and LCAs.

No one will ever give ToT for anything. Investment, consultancy is not ToT. So, don't expect France to give anything concrete.

 

[Nick]

No GaN radar is active in aerial mode. If you have source, please state. Having big GaN module in Giraffe type radar. GaN module is in prototype in USA and not being integrated with anything. Miniaturisation is yet to be done. So, India is not far behind. Also, radars can be imported as a standalone equipment for the time being. So, when will USA make GaN radar for F35? 2020-2021. When will India make a GaN radar? 2023-2024. Is this far behind? I don't think so. When will UTTAM radar with GaAs be completed with all the modes? 2019-2020. How can you say that its range will be poor? Do you have reason to say that? Because you think it is cool to simply say so.

Honestly, I am feeling like you are interested in your own agenda and propaganda.

Read my comment properly before ranting. I did say that they are currently integrating GaN modules on fighter FCRs. Raytheon has already operationalised GaN base 360D radar for the new Patriot version they're rolling out. Get your facts straight.

Please do tell me how you arrived at the date 2023-24 for an Indian MIC mass produced GaN radar!! I'm really interested so will be the DRDO chief!

The GaN modules currently being made in India are currently highly expensive even compared to the ones produced abroad and will take atleast 5 years for the proper infrastructures and production capacity to be built up to bring down costs. Then its a matter of integrating it onto radars, testing... blah blah blah .. until you get the product ready for series production around 7 or 8 years from now.

By then the others have already moved on to more powerful GaN AESA main radars and GaN arrays on pliable mediums that can be integrated on aircrafts skins; And we're left to play catch-up again.

Su57 will be serially produced next year: Serial Production of Su-57 Fighter Jet Starting Next Year

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21509/Serial_Production_of_Su_57_Starting_Next_Year#.Wj0G6xOgeUk

And is this Su-57 version the originally envisaged one with all the sub-systems completing development and ready for production?

These are Limited Series Production airframes you fool. Not Series Production ones. Only 12 LSPs will be made from 2018 for testing by the VKS.
Russia to start 5th-generation fighter jet production in Far East in 2018

AMCA has completed PDR and that will lead to prototyping. After prototyping, further review called Critical Design Review (CDR) will take place and modifications suggested and new prototype with the modifications made. The process repeats till the CDR is satisfied. Then Production Readiness Review (PRR) is done to check for infrastructure, subsystem availability etc. After PRR is completed, special production is made and IOC obtained.

So, since you have agreed that PDR is completed, isn't prototype the next obvious step? What is wrong with you?

Where is the proof that govt released funds for prototype production? Don't skirt about after making false claims like a punk. Prove your claims or shut up.

And no, prototyping comes after DDR which follows PDR. For god's sake even the PSQRs haven't been finalized yet by the IAF!!!! That means AMCA as of now is just an empty shell.

The PDC was set for completion in 2017, no word yet. Which means that the configuration is still not fixed. Engine not fixed, radar not fixed, EW systems not fixed, weapons not fixed and here you're talking about prototype construction!!!!
https://www.ada.gov.in/images/Annual Report 2015-16.pdf

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said.
“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.
India pushing full steam ahead on stealth fighter plane project

Preliminary design of India’s proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will begin in March, with a target of flying the aircraft in 2024 and making it ready for service as early as 2030.
India’s AMCA Fighter Targets Mid-2020s First Flight

So stop peddling BS about AMCA if you don't know squat.

The difference between 4th and 5th generation is quite blurry. With Tejas, F16 acquiring FBW, AESA, EW, SPJ, these planes can be considered as 4.5 generation. So, due to this blurryness, the 5th generation AMCA can be made using the developmental process of Tejas MK2.

I'm not even going to try replying to this garbage.

Orders are made according to requirements. IAF doesn't determine the requirements, situation does. There is a reason USA, Russia builds arms and has large MIC.

Some Air Marshal just fell out of his chair!!

Defence production is not just about getting planes but needing planes at the right time with right maintenance and in right numbers. I can understand if you are speaking of lisptick production or toy production. The infrastructure for defence production is an investment and not cost.

Since you are insisting that 45 squadron is enough, I want to ask a few questions:
1) On what basis is the squadron strength fixed? How do you know that more squadrons won't be needed? Isn't the need dependent on others' capability rather than absolute?
2) Say, tomorrow, Saudi decides to gift 50 billion dollars to Pakistan and Pakistan decides to buy F16 planes from it. That will be roughly 400 F16 at the cost of 125 million a piece. What will you do? Since you were so concerned about cost of infrastructure, you won't have any infrastructure to ramp production when needed.

You're the one who's comparing aircraft production to toys! I mean, a 1000/year?? Who comes up with numbers like these?!
You're questioning the IAF for coming up with their requirements for a 400 SEF and 45 sqn fleet. Go prove them wrong if you must but you're just barking up the wrong tree here.

3) A war breaks out, and lot of F16 gets hit with initial salvos of missile on the hangar or by jihadis as seen in Pathankot etc, how do you intend to build new planes or repair the damaged ones?

Did you get my point now as to why India needs only indigenous manufacturing?

This one actually made my day!!!

So, some Tejas' get destroyed during the initial salvo, and immediately the CAS calls up HAL MD and asks him to whip up a some replacements in a few hours and send them to the frontlines immediately!!

Thanks for that mate.

 

[Ashwin]

Do you know the difference between North Korea and USA? USA has abundant Natural Resource and oil while North Korea has decent natural resource except for oil. So, the only way North Korea is going to become rich is by importing Natural resource from outside. South Korea, for example, is getting resources imported from outside. As a result of this, they are a vassal state of USA. USA even keeps its military there, impeaches presidents to exercise control. If that is the other option, then North Korea is definitely better than South Korea. SOuth Koreans are slaves while North Koea at least has autonomy. If the question is whether you want to be free but poor or a slave who is rich for the time being (till oil runs out) and then again back to a poor slave for generations to come, it is better to be free.


Currently UTTAM radar has already been made. But, it doesn't have SAR ability. It only has air-air ability. DRDO is absorbing the Israeli technology and a final version is said to be made in 2019. GaN is the latest one and that is also in parallel construction. Since, GaN is a different technology, the start has to be done from scratch. India is about 3-4 years behind that. As of now, none has a mature GaN radar. So, the difference in radar technology in India is just 3-4 years at best, not a decade away. India is importing MF-STAR for the time being only. As we have seen recently, seeker for Akash has been made indigenously (can be used in Barak-8). Same way, in a few years, MF-Star will be replaced too.

AMCA design has been finalised and funds sanctioned for prototype building. RCS and wind tunnel tests are over. AMCA subsystems are being developed in parallel. FGFA has been postponed and mostly canceled in favour of AMCA. Here is the source for RCS testing facility opened in 2015 : India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector - Page 41 - Bharat Rakshak

The way I see from China, Russia etc, the time to make a 5th generation fighter is utmost 15 years. For Russian Su57, it was 10 years. So, considering that India has made the design final by 2017, the radars, EW, avionics for Tejas is also being developed with an intention of using it as 2 in 1 solution for AMCA too, I see AMCA rolling out by 2030. AMCA building is not independent of Tejas and that makes the development of AMCA faster. Unlike USA/Russia, India was lagging behind its 4th generation planes and hence decided to merge the 4th and 5th generation plane designs in the same process to quicken the development. So, when you see that AMCA is a spin off from Tejas, it will be easier to udnerstand why AMCA will roll out quickly.



Why are you sure that orders won't go above 400? Planes are not luxury goods but are critical goods which are needed for defence and offence. Why is there a cap on the number of planes required when it is a critical good?

Also, let us say, the cap is 400 planes. Even here, it is not necessary that the assembly line has exactly 8 planes each. We can have 5-6 etc. Why insist on 24 Tejas assembly line and 16 F16 assembly line instead of 40 Tejas assembly line. If ypur concern is that the lines will go idle as the long term production requirements, retrofitting etc is not 40, then why not produce Tejas at 28/year? It is still better than importing.

The infrastructure creation is just an investment. It is not wasteful. If you are speaking of waste, defence expenditures itself is waste. But, that is the point of a nation - to defend itself. It is OK to sacrifice luxury goods, reduce standards of living, increase tax etc for defence. Defence is of paramount importance. There is no second to defence

400 LCAs ? Which parallel universe are you living in? IAF don't have a requirement for more than 14-15 sqd of LCA class of aircraft. If this SE program is going forward there won't be anymore of LCAs in numbers.

AMCA is still in pre-development stage which it will be until the second half of 2019. Prototype won't fly before 2025.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

400 LCAs ? Which parallel universe are you living in? IAF don't have a requirement for more than 14-15 sqd of LCA class of aircraft. If this SE program is going forward there won't be anymore of LCAs in numbers.

AMCA is still in pre-development stage which it will be until the second half of 2019. Prototype won't fly before 2025.

It was the number given by Nick.
But, no, you are wrong that only 14-15 squadrons are needed. Eventually, entire air force has to be replaced with LCA MK2 and AMCA. Maybe Su30 will also be indigenised completely and used along with these. Imported planes have to go away one day or another.

LCA MK1 and MK1A is needd only in 123. This is just a stop gap measure. It is unlikely to have any more of MK1 series. It will be MK2 only.

Please, don't keep the so called 45 squadron as some god given number. No major war in history has been won by 45 squadrons of planes. And, considering that today's population is 4 times WW2 times, we will need large quantities. Even 40 thousand may not be enough.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Preliminary design of India’s proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will begin in March, with a target of flying the aircraft in 2024 and making it ready for service as early as 2030.

This is what I said. I never said first flight is now. I said that prototype will be constructed after PDR. I don't have source for money sanctioned for construction of prototype. But, I have read that design has been frozen. The prototype construction is immediately after PDR whereby actual materials, composites will be used to build prototype and obtain CDR (or DDR according to you).

I'm not even going to try replying to this garbage.

Some Air Marshal just fell out of his chair!!

Not meaningful. Defence infrastructure is for construction of aircrafts as and when needed. 45 squadron is artificially fixed. India had corrupt antinational congress who purposefully scuttled Indian defence industry, made India reliant on imports for even ammunition. Why do you think I am inclined to just sit down and be content with 45 squadrons? It is because if this 45 squadrons that Pakistan is still not destroyed or other evil elements are still roaming around, threatening our lives.

I am not just going to accept 45 squadrons as meaningful. Due to import reliance, India can't buy more and hence India is content with the artificial number. I would say minimum of 10000 (ten thousand) squadron is needed to get a final solution to many problems with minimal damage to India.

This 45 squadron is for media consumption. I am only interested in result oriented action, preferably permanent result.

So, some Tejas' get destroyed during the initial salvo, and immediately the CAS calls up HAL MD and asks him to whip up a some replacements in a few hours and send them to the frontlines immediately!!

The damaged aircrafts can be repaired too. Not all aircrafts will be destroyed. Also, you forgot my other question:

Say, tomorrow, Saudi decides to gift 50 billion dollars to Pakistan and Pakistan decides to buy F16 planes from it. That will be roughly 400 F16 at the cost of 125 million a piece. What will you do? Since you were so concerned about cost of infrastructure, you won't have any infrastructure to ramp production when needed.

Answer this too

 

[Nick]

This is what I said. I never said first flight is now. I said that prototype will be constructed after PDR. I don't have source for money sanctioned for construction of prototype. But, I have read that design has been frozen. The prototype construction is immediately after PDR whereby actual materials, composites will be used to build prototype and obtain CDR (or DDR according to you).

5 years from prototype first flight to Series production?? Yeah right. They're talking about LSPs in 2030 and LRIP from 2035.

Straight from the horse's mouth, ADA chief:
"Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says."
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-5th-gen-amca-targets-2030.html

45 squadron is artificially fixed. I am not just going to accept 45 squadrons as meaningful. I would say minimum of 10000 (ten thousand) squadron is needed to get a final solution to many problems with minimal damage to India.
This 45 squadron is for media consumption. I am only interested in result oriented action, preferably permanent result.

I rest my case. This conversation has gone from retarded to 'wet dreams of a fanboy'

Answer this too

I guess Saudi is just brimming with petro-dollars to consider throwing $50 Billion to Pak just for the thrill of it. And good luck PAF, getting 400 F-16s for that money. (BTW, F-16 production is about to be shut down, so the Saudi's better hurry)

Good day kid. I hope you see the light at the end of the tunnel someday.
Au revoir!

 

[Ironhide]

Both of you stop this fight and let us get this thread back on topic which is : IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

5 years from prototype first flight to Series production?? Yeah right. They're talking about LSPs in 2030 and LRIP from 2035.

Straight from the horse's mouth, ADA chief:
"Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says."
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-5th-gen-amca-targets-2030.html



I rest my case. This conversation has gone from retarded to 'wet dreams of a fanboy'



I guess Saudi is just brimming with petro-dollars to consider throwing $50 Billion to Pak just for the thrill of it. And good luck PAF, getting 400 F-16s for that money. (BTW, F-16 production is about to be shut down, so the Saudi's better hurry)

Good day kid. I hope you see the light at the end of the tunnel someday.
Au revoir!

ADA chief was being cautious. But, serial production from 2035 means higher chance that it is earlier itself. There is tremendous pressure to fast track it from Modi govt.

Saudi is spending 80 billion dollars on defence. You think that is some joke?

Next time, speak in action oriented, not procedure oriented manner. Just arbitrarily stating that 400 planes, 45 squadrons make no sense. The question here is:
1) what is the long term objective?
2) What is the short term objective?

Long term objective - Complete annihilation of enemy
Short term - defence of Indian airspace.

How is long term objectives satisfied? By mass manufacturing planes in extraordinary quantity - 1lakh+ planes by going full ballistic like North Korea.

How is short term objective satisfied? By having 40-45 squadron.

You are short sighted with only today's vision. I am speaking of ultimate objective. There is a difference. I am more prudent and result oriented.

 

[Sathya]

Forward bases require planes , rear ones can house Su 30 .
Considering IAF request of 220 Rafales for 30 billion $ , shouldn't it be Mk1A & Mk2 for forward bases + next tranche 36 of Rafale with offset MK1xx ?

Can we house the expensive Rafales at forward bases ?

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Forward bases require planes , rear ones can house Su 30 .
Considering IAF request of 220 Rafales for 30 billion $ , shouldn't it be Mk1A & Mk2 for forward bases + next tranche 36 of Rafale with offset MK1xx ?

Can we house the expensive Rafales at forward bases ?

30 billion is not a joke. That too, when it is in forex, it becomes too big a deal. Let us not go into such speculations.

 

[Ironhide]

30 billion is not a joke. That too, when it is in forex, it becomes too big a deal. Let us not go into such speculations.

His question is legitimate, As per this thread's topic and sources, IAF is pushing for Rafale + Tejas instead of F16, Rafale order will be 120+ if IAF has its wishes met.

 

[Aashish]

The figure arose from the fact that if F16 deal reaches USD 30 Bn for 170 odd birds, at the same price 220+ Rafales can be bought as per IAF contention.

The requirement from IAF perspective is different. IAF wishes another 150 rafales and Navy added 90 odd requirements over a long 10-15 years of production.

IAF wants an MII deal commitment and tranche wise orders like in case of MKI to spread this cost over multiple years.

About forex @Kshithij Sharma , you are partly correct. As in MII, there is an Indian entity, not the whole amount will go out of our system to outside. With localisation and the ecosystem involving more of Indian Pvt sector MIC along with HAL, BEL, BDL via JVs, the final money ploughed back to France will be significantly smaller. In reality, it will be only the profit margin and the price for systems/subsystems which are completely imported. + the share of cost+profit which individual MIC company has to bear for their JVs towards localisation commitment.

Its similar to to all industries who open up a company in India or to all the systems which are imnported off the shelf or bought via Indian entity to fit into our indigenous platform. Part of gloablisation really.

 

[Sathya]

The figure arose from the fact that if F16 deal reaches USD 30 Bn for 170 odd birds, at the same price 220+ Rafales can be bought as per IAF contention.

The requirement from IAF perspective is different. IAF wishes another 150 rafales and Navy added 90 odd requirements over a long 10-15 years of production.

IAF wants an MII deal commitment and tranche wise orders like in case of MKI to spread this cost over multiple years.

About forex @Kshithij Sharma , you are partly correct. As in MII, there is an Indian entity, not the whole amount will go out of our system to outside. With localisation and the ecosystem involving more of Indian Pvt sector MIC along with HAL, BEL, BDL via JVs, the final money ploughed back to France will be significantly smaller. In reality, it will be only the profit margin and the price for systems/subsystems which are completely imported. + the share of cost+profit which individual MIC company has to bear for their JVs towards localisation commitment.

Its similar to to all industries who open up a company in India or to all the systems which are imnported off the shelf or bought via Indian entity to fit into our indigenous platform. Part of gloablisation really.

Parik, have 2 doubts ..

1. What's the plan for forward bases as more & more aircrafts there retire ?
Sukhoi + Rafales until Tejas gets done ?

2. How are we going to recover the offsets spent at DRAL ?
Assuming 25 billion $ deal is made with 50 % offsets , 12.5 billion offsets invested in various projects as technology etc..
Supposing 5 billion $ of offset is spent at mic setup in DRAL , how this amount is going to be recovered by GOI ?
I ve raised this query at PDF, taygibay responded but I couldn't understand his explanation .

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Parik, have 2 doubts ..

1. What's the plan for forward bases as more & more aircrafts there retire ?
Sukhoi + Rafales until Tejas gets done ?

2. How are we going to recover the offsets spent at DRAL ?
Assuming 25 billion $ deal is made with 50 % offsets , 12.5 billion offsets invested in various projects as technology etc..
Supposing 5 billion $ of offset is spent at mic setup in DRAL , how this amount is going to be recovered by GOI ?
I ve raised this query at PDF, taygibay responded but I couldn't understand his explanation .

Investment is part of Indian economy. It will boost Indian industry while keeping full control within India. Tomorrow, government can nationalise it too for war production.

So, the question of recovery doesn't arise. But, the question here is if 30 billion dollars is spent, which is 2 lakh crores, then will IAF have any budget left? Capital Budget annually is around 25k crores. 2 lakh crores is 8 years budget.

Also, I don't think India needs 12 billion dollars of investment in offset. France is unlikely to give ToT of that order. DRAL is getting only 100 million dollars as offset. 1 billion dollar offset is being used to develop Kaveri by consultancy and offering test beds, certification. Rest 3 billion dollars are going to other offset like DCNS, SAMTEL etc. The ToT is relatively simple ones. It is the experience that is being offered

 

[Sathya]

Investment is part of Indian economy. It will boost Indian industry while keeping full control within India. Tomorrow, government can nationalise it too for war production.

So, the question of recovery doesn't arise. But, the question here is if 30 billion dollars is spent, which is 2 lakh crores, then will IAF have any budget left? Capital Budget annually is around 25k crores. 2 lakh crores is 8 years budget.

Also, I don't think India needs 12 billion dollars of investment in offset. France is unlikely to give ToT of that order. DRAL is getting only 100 million dollars as offset. 1 billion dollar offset is being used to develop Kaveri by consultancy and offering test beds, certification. Rest 3 billion dollars are going to other offset like DCNS, SAMTEL etc. The ToT is relatively simple ones. It is the experience that is being offered

Offsets are GOI money or French money ?
If we pay higher in the deal because of 50 % offsets or transfer of technology to private sector .. Why would GOI pay extra for DRAL ?
It has to gain something if it had done so ..
Remember US offset of Boeing setting up wind tunnel or something ..


I am just quoting 5 billion offsets as an example in MII deal. Not an actual figure.