IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
- Thread starter Aashish
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Some news came in late hours .
F-16/Gripen E/SE Saga
- Based on huge pressure from USA, MOD and PM Modi will have a round of discussion on F-16 proposal which has been put off indefinitely.
- The pressure is put with a single point emphasis that such a climb down will show case India's reluctance to go on with USA Partnership and will be detrimental for India's other geo political process.
- Its expected that some other urgency deal will be worked out if F-16 deal is not through in this meeting.
- Technical aspect clearance has not been accorded by IAF for F-16 Block 70 in the files
- Saab Gripen E offer was rejected by IAF as well and the same has been conveyed to Saab folks by MOD unofficial channels.
- There is a understanding in MOD circles that a systematic campaign to bad mouth each of the other prospective candidates will be done in Indian Media (we already seeing that) to create a atmosphere and look for a comeback.
Rafale News
- For some time low risk low altitude terrain hugging will be undertaken by Jaguar and Rafales will do terrain hugging profile in medium or high risk missions only.
- In the recent meeting between S Christopher , Chmn DRDO and Secretary R&D DoD, with French officals like DM Parly, Meeting with Prez Macron and senior management of Dassault in Paris, a certain discussion focused on 5th Gen plane and joint efforts.
- The discussion focussed on many aspects and our decision making changes regarding indigenous 5th Gen projects,
- It was mutially agreed that Rafale F4.2 and beyond standard technology will flow in DRDO authorised Units and DRAL Ecosystem.
- The Rafale under such technological expertise will be just below the formal definition of 5th Gen but except the stealth shaping and reduced RCS , most of the other technical fields will be outmatched with Rafale upgradation plan.
- There was also a talk on a dedicated Electronic Support Version of Rafale in the lines of F35 and increasing the stealth shaping and cancellation aspects using GaN tech. A study for the same is planned as a way to upgrade the fleet via such technical upgrades.
- As of now such a dedicated platform for ESV Rafale is not planned but in future if a need arise, such a platform will be jointly manufactured.
- Also talks hovered around a certain light category aircraft platform where France has offered help and support. A quick note on all such technology sharing and systems for that aircraft was quickly pointed and jointly reviewed. Things seems to be on track.
- In the end Prez Macron also added that all future Rafales will be made with certain % percentage from Indian Unit of DRAL components always. It may start with any of the Qatari or Egyptian follow on orders if DRAL facility is ready with manufacturing.
Super MKI News
- After New Delhi's constant follow up, Russian side has replied with certain data and has proposed some further forward discussion during the joint India Russia meeting.
- India has given a revert stating they plan to undertake all the portion of Super Upgrade in MKI facility of HAL.
- New Delhi made two more important disclosures
1. The Super Upgrade will have Israel as a technology consultant cum guide for all the whole project for upgrade.
2. A Indian private sector company will be part of this upgrade plan and will partner HAL for MKI Upgrade.
-This Indian Company will be the base company via which certain technologies will flow. Its expected to have a certain highest possible technology access from a American Major Raytheon among some other entities for Avionics and with Israeli Companies for major systems/subsystems and French portions too.
F-16/Gripen E/SE Saga
- Based on huge pressure from USA, MOD and PM Modi will have a round of discussion on F-16 proposal which has been put off indefinitely.
- The pressure is put with a single point emphasis that such a climb down will show case India's reluctance to go on with USA Partnership and will be detrimental for India's other geo political process.
- Its expected that some other urgency deal will be worked out if F-16 deal is not through in this meeting.
- Technical aspect clearance has not been accorded by IAF for F-16 Block 70 in the files
- Saab Gripen E offer was rejected by IAF as well and the same has been conveyed to Saab folks by MOD unofficial channels.
- There is a understanding in MOD circles that a systematic campaign to bad mouth each of the other prospective candidates will be done in Indian Media (we already seeing that) to create a atmosphere and look for a comeback.
Rafale News
- For some time low risk low altitude terrain hugging will be undertaken by Jaguar and Rafales will do terrain hugging profile in medium or high risk missions only.
- In the recent meeting between S Christopher , Chmn DRDO and Secretary R&D DoD, with French officals like DM Parly, Meeting with Prez Macron and senior management of Dassault in Paris, a certain discussion focused on 5th Gen plane and joint efforts.
- The discussion focussed on many aspects and our decision making changes regarding indigenous 5th Gen projects,
- It was mutially agreed that Rafale F4.2 and beyond standard technology will flow in DRDO authorised Units and DRAL Ecosystem.
- The Rafale under such technological expertise will be just below the formal definition of 5th Gen but except the stealth shaping and reduced RCS , most of the other technical fields will be outmatched with Rafale upgradation plan.
- There was also a talk on a dedicated Electronic Support Version of Rafale in the lines of F35 and increasing the stealth shaping and cancellation aspects using GaN tech. A study for the same is planned as a way to upgrade the fleet via such technical upgrades.
- As of now such a dedicated platform for ESV Rafale is not planned but in future if a need arise, such a platform will be jointly manufactured.
- Also talks hovered around a certain light category aircraft platform where France has offered help and support. A quick note on all such technology sharing and systems for that aircraft was quickly pointed and jointly reviewed. Things seems to be on track.
- In the end Prez Macron also added that all future Rafales will be made with certain % percentage from Indian Unit of DRAL components always. It may start with any of the Qatari or Egyptian follow on orders if DRAL facility is ready with manufacturing.
Super MKI News
- After New Delhi's constant follow up, Russian side has replied with certain data and has proposed some further forward discussion during the joint India Russia meeting.
- India has given a revert stating they plan to undertake all the portion of Super Upgrade in MKI facility of HAL.
- New Delhi made two more important disclosures
1. The Super Upgrade will have Israel as a technology consultant cum guide for all the whole project for upgrade.
2. A Indian private sector company will be part of this upgrade plan and will partner HAL for MKI Upgrade.
-This Indian Company will be the base company via which certain technologies will flow. Its expected to have a certain highest possible technology access from a American Major Raytheon among some other entities for Avionics and with Israeli Companies for major systems/subsystems and French portions too.
Will Russia agree to so much USA and Israel involvement in Super Sukhoi? Apart from this we are also dying to get a political F-16 deal with no progress on FGFA/SU57 deal, looks like a Russia-India divorce is on the cards.
If you had read previous info , you will understand that our Su 30 frequencies had been disclosed to certain country by someone.
India has the right to protect its assets.
That certain country mostly is China directly or indirectly. Else Russia would have already denied all our requests for involving Israel and USA.
Its beyond them now. The AESA Radar proposed by Russia had issues. Certain important MKI data has been suspected to be well within adversaries response plan of fighting MKIs and thus the Super Upgrade plan went for drastic changes .
In a way the whole profile of Super MKI will be a very different bird all together.
The good part is technology will come via Pvt sector company to partner with HAL for the upgrade project which is again a good sign.
About F-16 deal, the file was put on freeze upto June 2018 but USA pressure has warranted a meeting for discussion. IF the meeting does not conclude in F16 favour then we are safe to assume that a certain deal like Helo NMRH might go to LM Tata JV and perhaps Tata may be offered a role as the pvt sector company in MKI upgrade.
About India Russia distance, its now business relations where a buyer demands a certain expectations from the product performances and after sales service support with everything built in purchased contract. This is of course not liked by the Russian style of working and our efforts not to get duped ever again by any contractual loopholes (case in hand we still are signing Ka226 deal for last 2 years and even this year we will sign)
Unless again PM Modi does a U Turn and embraces Russia despite of all this, the chances are more or less limited for the Russia participation into future aircraft platforms.. We might see them with AD deals , Tank deals and Navy deals more
Hopefully USA pressure is withstood..
And alternative urgency plan is only Sirkosky Helis not F35 atm.
Rafale deal is being challenged by Us offers.
Regarding Su super upgrade, seems India is interested in Israeli F15 customization ..
And alternative urgency plan is only Sirkosky Helis not F35 atm.
Rafale deal is being challenged by Us offers.
Regarding Su super upgrade, seems India is interested in Israeli F15 customization ..
If Russian-Indian relations have been reduced to customer and service provider level why are we encouraging Ka226 deal? wouldn't it be wise for us to wait until the end of 2018 for LUH to begin production?
Its better to look at helicopter and perhaps drone production versus F16. But then If PM Modi cant stand up to this pressure and move on ahead with the plan, then there is no stopping this political deal.
The urgency was compounded by lack of orders in F16 line as well. So there is a immense pressure to save this jobs as well for POTUS.
I wont be surprised by a political deal at all. But i would prefer helo deal and even drone deal /slash a transport craft MII over Fighter Jets.
Thats why every year we say we signing Ka226 deal but have we signed it fully? and now LUH is also there.
In the words of @Abingdonboy who analysed this need in detail, both LUH and Ka226 can co exist if private sector orders and other possible services orders are pooled together. Whether that happens, it needs to be seen.
True especially when Hal will build these Ka226 at the same tumkur facility where LUH will be made.
This facility can make 60 helicopters per year. Ka226 will share some capacity.
I wish atleast some private sector to get the deal.
AD system and Subs both are highly sensitive equipments and what if they are compromised by Russians??
What a bunch of hypocrites. The C-17, C-130, Apache, Chinook, Poseidon, etc. don't count? Neither do the howitzers, bombs, missiles, or aircraft engines?
S 400 is already bought by China.
We negotiate for S450 wherein we want to buy only the long range missiles integrated into our network I suppose.
We have been talking to one more country where Chief Lanba went and visited their facilities. There is a growing agreement under work for France to share us Barracuda tech to us and perhaps a consulting role as well. This implies the indigenous black projects will get French elements as well.
Good part is Hull and steel is full Indian and L&T is doing great work in that. 100% the sonar suite and main acoustic scanning system will be again Indian.
Critically the tiles also will be via Indian company only.
This reduces the chance of compromise a lot more since the submarine by itself is an unknown entity and secondly it's acoustic signature is unknown. The steel itself is a bit different and again it's not in water to know well it's properties. Thus as of now it's pretty safe . With the tech of Barracuda our mitigation measures would be far better completed.
AD part covered by above post
Saving F16 line jobs..
Taking in offensive fighter to utilize USA network..
Signing of US fundamental agreements ..
We are talking about a prospective business of $15-17Bn for just 114 planes and their associated life cycle costs will flow afterwards.. so USA can't let it go in any manner.. for them it's a gold mine..
It effectively will help curtail everything in favour of US figher jets in future..directly or indirectly... Even a JV will result in the same problem
Will Russia allow us to integrate their missiles into our radar (of choice) and other AD networks? And will not adversely affect the whole AD system as such.
As some say part of the reason why our Su30 mki fleet is so maintenance intensive is also due to the same mix and match strategy.
There is a high chance that the F-16 deal would go through, one reason being the 'fee' for inclusion into the strategic 'gang' and two due to the sqn shortfalls. Tejas won't fill the numbers in time, even if we induct them at 16/year from next year, assuming that Mk-1A development stays on time.
Also, don't forget the new Bahrain deal for F-16V, which will be produced at the Greenville factory.
Cheif Lanba visited France last month, Even if we decide to incorporate Barracuda tech in our subs it would at least take a year to sign the contract. But the fabrication of the SSN hulls has begun long ago. Wouldn't it be impossible to change the design and component list that goes int0 them now?
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