IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[randomradio]

I have a different view on it. Most Russian engines have still not reached the same TET as that of western engines, but they too have very high thrust engines. Kaveri in its present form does not have BLISK. Once you put BLISK, the frontal diameter on the hub reduces resulting in higher air flow for same frontal area. add to this higher pressure ratios between various stages of fan and compressor and you will be able to meet the requirements of higher mass flow for enhanced thrust without having to change the fan diameter or engine dimensions. Regarding the hot core, yes the core is limited by the TET it can withstand and the max thrust that can be produced from it based on various factors like internal cooling etc. If I remeber correctly, @Picdelamirand-oil and @halloweene had mentioned that M88 core is fit for 11 ton thrust. Slight modification using the CMC materials giving higher TET will easily allow Kaveri to hit 130KN thrust easily.

I think we will have to import the BLISK for now. That's why high thrust variants of the Kaveri won't be 100% India IPR.

Also, I was thinking more along the lines of the British entering the Kaveri program, not the Russians, if the French deal doesn't work out.

 

[The enlightened]

What is this safranised Kaveri? I see that GTRE has explicitly rejected any such ideas of importing cores as Core is the main technology. Jet engine program was not meant to be cost cutting program. It is an indigenous engine program with explicit intention to make the core of the engine.

Also, with the experience gained from past 20 years, manufacturing of Al31 in HAL Koraput why would one even think of M88 core? Why have such mentality that India is filled with incompetent people who won't be able to make an engine?

China have already made WS 10 engine and WS15 engine by 2010-15. So, without specifying actual reasons behind inability to make engine by GTRE, it is incorrect to simply insist on M88 core

You are not a spokesperson for GTRE so you cannot make statements or claims on their behalf. Neither can GTRE reject Gov. orders. Core is not the only part of the engine.

Even if 50% of the engine is made by GTRE, that would mean 50% of a jet engine was designed and produced in India. The alternative is to have 0% share in design and production (GE-404). Clearly something is better than nothing.

As we gain invaluable knowledge and understanding regarding the production which as shown by LCA is an entirely different task from making prototypes, we improve our position to some day integrate our own core section which can be simultaneously worked upon by the gremlins, with the knowledge that there is an operational engine available to integrate it whenever it's ready.

Comparing ourselves with the Chinese is futile as they have invested several times the money we have and had generous help from the Ukies and Ruskis.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

I think we will have to import the BLISK for now. That's why high thrust variants of the Kaveri won't be 100% India IPR.

Also, I was thinking more along the lines of the British entering the Kaveri program, not the Russians, if the French deal doesn't work out.

GTRE had put a tender for opening blisk manufacturing plant in 2015. It has been over 2 years since then I guess, we already have blisk. The blisk, SCB were all 1980s technology. I see no reason to lament about it. At least, in the laboratory scale, the blisks are easily producible. Blisks produced for prototypes may require large amounts of labour but is not hard technology. Laser cutting etc can be used to cut a single block of metal using laser beams directed with optical fibres. So, the prototype must have been ready if it was just blisk technology.

You are not a spokesperson for GTRE so you cannot make statements or claims on their behalf. Neither can GTRE reject Gov. orders. Core is not the only part of the engine.

Even if 50% of the engine is made by GTRE, that would mean 50% of a jet engine was designed and produced in India. The alternative is to have 0% share in design and production (GE-404). Clearly something is better than nothing.

As we gain invaluable knowledge and understanding regarding the production which as shown by LCA is an entirely different task from making prototypes, we improve our position to some day integrate our own core section which can be simultaneously worked upon by the gremlins, with the knowledge that there is an operational engine available to integrate it whenever it's ready.

Comparing ourselves with the Chinese is futile as they have invested several times the money we have and had generous help from the Ukies and Ruskis.

The non core part of the engine is already made in 2011. The development is for the core part only. Simply saying that the core can be importe is like saying that the last 7 years was a wasteful work. Just pumping money won't get engines. Else, Saudi Arabia would have had engines. Time, and manpower over years is needed. India has put all of that. We are discussing a laboratory scale manufacturing of a dozen prototypes, not mass manufacturing. Prototype doesn't mean model but fully working one. We don't have any final prototype that works as needed. With some additional resource, the engines should be doable in the prototype stage. It is the mass manufacturing that requires large capital investment, not laboratory scale manufacturing.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

This is Blisk machining. The advanced technology is all about increasing the speed of machining and reducing the cycle time. Making a blisk by itself is not a hard thing. For mass manufacturing, one needs fast manufacturing and that is where the advanced technology comes in

Delcam partnered with Technicut to revolutionise blisk machining efficiency, delivering a 51% remarkable saving in cycle time and 45% reduction in milling cost. This 804mm diameter, 31 bladed Ti-64 blisk took just 35hrs to rough and finish mill utilising PowerMILL and Technicut’s barrel tooling technology.

 

[Bon Plan]

The whole process of increasing its thrust at a later date will mean more money and French do not even look at you till you pay them upfront.

Indian specialists have learned a lot about the SAFRAN job on Kaveri. I hope so. Maybe you will be autonom after that.

 

[Bon Plan]

What is this safranised Kaveri? I see that GTRE has explicitly rejected any such ideas of importing cores as Core is the main technology. Jet engine program was not meant to be cost cutting program. It is an indigenous engine program with explicit intention to make the core of the engine.

Also, with the experience gained from past 20 years, manufacturing of Al31 in HAL Koraput why would one even think of M88 core? Why have such mentality that India is filled with incompetent people who won't be able to make an engine?

China have already made WS 10 engine and WS15 engine by 2010-15. So, without specifying actual reasons behind inability to make engine by GTRE, it is incorrect to simply insist on M88 core

To produce something doesn't mean you know how it was studied and how to use this to developp a proper new engine.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Indian specialists have learned a lot about the SAFRAN job on Kaveri. I hope so. Maybe you will be autonom after that.

Indian specialists have also taught French what is called a variable cycle engine with out using third air stream. Its mutual. No losers or winners in this. All are equal.

 

[The enlightened]

First of all you need to stop contradicting yourself every 2 lines.

Just pumping money won't get engines.

With some additional resource

mass manufacturing that requires large capital investment,

Time, and manpower over years is needed. India has put all of that.

We don't have any final prototype that works as needed

Secondly please don't make stuff up on my behalf.

like saying that the last 7 years was a wasteful work.

We are discussing a laboratory scale manufacturing of a dozen prototypes, not mass manufacturing.

?
Get a grip man.

Kaveri is not ready and is not expected to be ready anytime soon. There is not even the 'hopelessly optimistic deadline given by Government scientist' to go by. What options does that leave us with?

• Keep on slugging with Kaveri in the hope of one day reaching the finish line, meanwhile Tejas MK-II has arrived with an American engine 25% more powerful, Kohli has retired and Rahul Gandhi is Prime Minister.
• Forget the pointless Kaveri and try to make an engine for AMCA and hope feverishly that it comes off this time (while remaining secretly assured that it will fail again like the last time just like dhoni trying to score at a S/R over 100 in the death)
• Take the parts that work. Put them in a usable piece. Set up a production ecosystem. Integrate it with Tejas operationally. Then make a proper core section and integrate it whenever ready.

The answer is clear. Thankfully our Government can see it too ?

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

First of all you need to stop contradicting yourself every 2 lines.








Secondly please don't make stuff up on my behalf.


?
Get a grip man.

Kaveri is not ready and is not expected to be ready anytime soon. There is not even the 'hopelessly optimistic deadline given by Government scientist' to go by. What options does that leave us with?

• Keep on slugging with Kaveri in the hope of one day reaching the finish line, meanwhile Tejas MK-II has arrived with an American engine 25% more powerful, Kohli has retired and Rahul Gandhi is Prime Minister.
• Forget the pointless Kaveri and try to make an engine for AMCA and hope feverishly that it comes off this time (while remaining secretly assured that it will fail again like the last time just like dhoni trying to score at a S/R over 100 in the death)
• Take the parts that work. Put them in a usable piece. Set up a production ecosystem. Integrate it with Tejas operationally. Then make a proper core section and integrate it whenever ready.

The answer is clear. Thankfully our Government can see it too ?

You appear to be weak in English. I meant that time, technical manpower (working over time) and small amount of resource is needed to make laboratory prototype without Mass manufacturing.

Let me explain:
What is needed for making prototype engine?
1) Time
2) Technical Manpower (working over time)
3) Small amount of resources to get laboratory level equipment and test bed

Why did I say that?
Because you insisted that China pumping huge money was responsible or their success. I wanted to disprove that JUST money was not sufficient and instead said that resources have minimal say (not no say).

Why India does not have prototype yet?
Because India has put time and manpower but resources were curtailed almost completely once the engine started showing results by UPA. So, afterwards, the engine project came to a stop. So, some additional resources are needed but not too much that you point at Chinese resources.

Did you get a grip of anything I said? I hope you read the words like 'JUST' and understand the meaning.

Now, do you have a reason to say Kaveri will never succeed? Are you just trying to irritate everyone with meaningless rant?

 

[The enlightened]

You appear to be weak in English. I meant that time, technical manpower (working over time) and small amount of resource is needed to make laboratory prototype without Mass manufacturing.

Let me explain:
What is needed for making prototype engine?
1) Time
2) Technical Manpower (working over time)
3) Small amount of resources to get laboratory level equipment and test bed

Why did I say that?
Because you insisted that China pumping huge money was responsible or their success. I wanted to disprove that JUST money was not sufficient and instead said that resources have minimal say (not no say).

Why India does not have prototype yet?
Because India has put time and manpower but resources were curtailed almost completely once the engine started showing results by UPA. So, afterwards, the engine project came to a stop. So, some additional resources are needed but not too much that you point at Chinese resources.

Did you get a grip of anything I said? I hope you read the words like 'JUST' and understand the meaning.

Now, do you have a reason to say Kaveri will never succeed? Are you just trying to irritate everyone with meaningless rant?

No that's just your cluelessness and general lack of awareness. Further causing you to go off on a tangent about 'making prototypes'.

PS: India does have prototypes. They just don't work.

The original 50\81kn spec was drafted for a 5500 kg fighter. Tejas is now a 6500kg aircraft. While Kaveri is stuck at 72 kn. In a non-production version at that, which to once again re-iterate is going to require further efforts over prototypes.

Now apparently you have reasons to believe that the technical problems besetting Kabini are resolvable. Perhaps due to your superior technical skills over all of GTRE which on last count haven't claimed their targets to be achievable. You also seem to think such targets can be met in a time bound manner to replace Safran Kaveri on Mk-1A circa 2022, by which time indigenous Kaveri must not only meet thrust target but also be flight certified and in production, neither of which event has ben experienced by independent India in it's entire history.

You could indeed become a GTRE spokesperson.


JUST

Comparing ourselves with the Chinese is futile as they have invested several times the money we have and had generous help from the Ukies and Ruskis.

Haha
BTW Chinese money bought them the technical manpower (Soviet engineers) as well as this

 

[Bon Plan]

Indian specialists have also taught French what is called a variable cycle engine with out using third air stream. Its mutual. No losers or winners in this. All are equal.

Do you really think SAFRAN don't know what it is ?
If I remember well the engine Olympus of the concorde was a variable flow engine.
But It's probably interesting to see a new realisation, specially made by new entrants in the engine business (probably with brand new solution or concept).
It's probably a win win situation.

 

[A Person]

The Concorde didn't have variable cycle engines; however its successor was planned to have that technology. Of course, the Concorde ended up not having a successor, so SNECMA's MCV99 was never produced.

 

[Noodler]

You cant have film cooling vents within individual blades if core sections are manufactured with blisk machining.

 

[Noodler]

India has always suffered from manufacturing hoodoo. Hundreds of papers are published by IIT geniuses but nothing really makes it to the real world because most of them deal with numerical modelling which frankly gets you nowhere. If you visit any IIT laboratory facility, almost every machine is either german or japanese.

 

[Noodler]

We need appropriate metallurgy for single crystal and directional cooling for castings. If we talk about composites, we are very far from achieving tech prowess for ceramic composites.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

We need appropriate metallurgy for single crystal and directional cooling for castings. If we talk about composites, we are very far from achieving tech prowess for ceramic composites.

You seem to be confusing with defence research and general research. India has mostly government sponsored research but limited private research. So, the general lack of R&D expenditure need not weigh much.

The biggest drawback in making the single crystal alloy as in GE engines is the supply of rhenium. Rhenium supply is limited and the demand is too high. There has already been many long term contracts for rhenium and hence India is not able to get the amount of rhenium required. With Rhenium, the thrust to weight ratio can be increased drastically. Combination of rhenium super alloy and CMC can take the thrust to weight ration over 11 as seen in F135 engine. Even without Rhenium, it is possible to take the level pf TWR to 9-10 with usage of CMC.

The failure of Kaveri is due to acoustic instability caused by the wavelength of the exhaust or its multiples matching with the diameter of outlet. The screech noise etc come from this instability. It only requires repeated flight tests and reiteration which the UPA deliberately scuttled by cutting the funds. With funds available and full government support, Kaveri will be flying soon in 1 year or two

 

[Bon Plan]

The failure of Kaveri is due to acoustic instability caused by the wavelength of the exhaust or its multiples matching with the diameter of outlet. The screech noise etc come from this instability. It only requires repeated flight tests and reiteration which the UPA deliberately scuttled by cutting the funds. With funds available and full government support, Kaveri will be flying soon in 1 year or two

Is it really the truth?
Kaveri was on the drawing board and on test since too many time... You can't give money and time without limit.

 

[Noodler]

seem to be confusing with defence research and general research.

Hmm most top IIT profs are all associated with defense. Scientist of defence agencies are ex IISC IIT. They keep modelling stuff all the time with no progress in experimental work. A paucity of funds could be a reason. It's cheaper to tweak your code than to setup an experiment.

The failure of Kaveri is due to acoustic instability caused by the wavelength of the exhaust or its multiples matching with the diameter of outlet

That's one minor problem. There are bigger issues with the core itself, highlighted several times on forums, beyond dynamics. There is no need for pulling in the govt. In the same period these folks must have purchased more chai than jet A1.

 

[Noodler]

rhenium

If research labs world over can acquire samples, I don't see any excuses for not developing technology at the laboratory scale.

 

[Aashish]

Source says

1. Prez Macron is coming for More Rafales and Kaveri Engine Ecosystem
2. Confirm stability now above 100Kn and another 1XXKn plus. Officially may be advertised a little lower specs (residual military specs only to the user)
3. India wants both the Engine forms to be available for MII Rafales which French side is saying NO for higher thrust one but had given ok for ~100Kn Engine.
4. Need a complete redevelopment for spectra new version as the engine thrusts and signature management will undergo changes.
5. Part of the problem is the 1XX Kn engine will need more air intake as it needs a major modification.. India is open to it saying it wants to make Rafales in India and such changes is fine for India. Whereas France is insisting product needs maturity before undergoing such massive production numbers and that also in India.
6. There needs more new further research on this version and Rafale. Roughly a leaked version online called Rafale XL is almost saying similar things.. but the final version which may take 5-7 years is above those specs.


A informal comment says if the heavy version of Kaveri producing 1XX can be stabilised.. we might soon start replacing few MKIs with in house this engine within next 5 years.

Scientists and team are excited with possibilities.. but now needs dedicated support from both governments to move ahead.