This happened in winter session of parliament.Here you go!
Manu Pubby @manupubby 16 minutes ago
And, here it is - We have a secrecy pact with France on#Rafale deal, cannot divulge information related to cost of aircraft,@nsitharaman informs Parliament.@ThePrintIndia
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
- Thread starter Aashish
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Instead of writing articles in newspapers or on forums like **** etc, I write directly to those who matter. And all my writings to them are very carefully analysed and detailed in terms of costs. Its very difficult for anyone to just overlook them. Congies are making charges of scam in rafale deal with no proof in their hands. If I share all that I wrote to DM Parrikar, BJP will be in deep trouble. They will be forced to come out with the truth of this deal and that will only be able to explain the additional costs. Nation has been fooled in believing that the deal has 50% offsets. the truth is that we are paying for everything including so called offsets.
There are lot of "help" we might be asking secretly from France. What is the mean to pay in lieu of that?
I am considering the overt deals are overly paid to compensate covert deals.
Just Like Admiral Gorshkov deal. There was a lot covert in that deal than overt. We need to find legal ways to pay for Illegal purchases.
Secrecy in name of national interest is always a double edged sword but then we need to trust our elected government. Not everything can be disclosed, if you don't trust government with your money, change it.
Are you surprised?
Offset main goal is to improve indian skill and know how. Do you really think it is for free?
MoD’s official statement on Rafale deal & related inter-governmental agreement.
Important points to note:
1. In 2012, the then Def Min exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 MMRCA
2. The previous government in 2012 itself rejected Eurofighter Typhoon's offer to declare Rafale as L1, no question of renegotiation.
3. Approximate acquisition cost has been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal details regarding various customization and weapon systems of the Rafale will impact our military preparedness and compromise national security (under the security agreement signed in 2008).
4. The 2016 contract is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance training etc.
5. 36 Rafales bought under IGA to meet the urgent need of IAF
6. Under the previous proposal for 126 MMRCA, no provision for ToT but only manufacture under licence.
7. No Indian Offset Partner has been so far selected by DA.
Important points to note:
1. In 2012, the then Def Min exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 MMRCA
2. The previous government in 2012 itself rejected Eurofighter Typhoon's offer to declare Rafale as L1, no question of renegotiation.
3. Approximate acquisition cost has been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal details regarding various customization and weapon systems of the Rafale will impact our military preparedness and compromise national security (under the security agreement signed in 2008).
4. The 2016 contract is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance training etc.
5. 36 Rafales bought under IGA to meet the urgent need of IAF
6. Under the previous proposal for 126 MMRCA, no provision for ToT but only manufacture under licence.
7. No Indian Offset Partner has been so far selected by DA.
Have I ever Blamed French for this deal or criticised this deal? Have I ever called Rafale an inferior aircraft? Even in my posts here I have supported the deal if you can read it properly and understand it.
MoD’s official statement on Rafale deal & related inter-governmental agreement.
Important points to note:
1. In 2012, the then Def Min exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 MMRCA
2. The previous government in 2012 itself rejected Eurofighter Typhoon's offer to declare Rafale as L1, no question of renegotiation.
3. Approximate acquisition cost has been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal details regarding various customization and weapon systems of the Rafale will impact our military preparedness and compromise national security (under the security agreement signed in 2008).
4. The 2016 contract is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance training etc.
5. 36 Rafales bought under IGA to meet the urgent need of IAF
6. Under the previous proposal for 126 MMRCA, no provision for ToT but only manufacture under licence.
7. No Indian Offset Partner has been so far selected by DA.
GAYI BHAINS PANI MAIN.
After 1&1/2 decades of drama 36 new fighters bought and now the deal will get stuck and no MII and IAF will face fighter shortage for eternity........
And we have Dragon breathing FIRE at our Borders........
It's given PAF is no more match for IAF even with 33 sqdns since we have more capable fighters like SU30mki but China is totally a different Beast and IAF and IN Air wing should be Readied for China with a minimum 45 sqdns for IAF of which 5-6 Sqdns should always be avalable for CAS to IA & 10 Sqdns for IN Air wing with official announcement of IN Air Force which should take up responsibilities for Coastal security as within a decade Chinese Carriers will become a big headache for India. We should consider 2-3 sqdns of SU30MKI (of 10 sqdns) for Navy too for coastal security, armed with Brahmos they will be huge deterrent for PLAN carriers.
We should start churning out LCA in huge numbers to fill this gap and MII for Rafale should come up really fast to fill numbers...........
It's better to wait for some more time.. information that's cmg ..it's better to hold it..
Certain times, some decisions are better left out of open places..
Just wait for sometime to see few things, once some hints or some statements are out in public, the rest can be openly discussed.
Things have been slowly cooking and it's becoming better and better... A hint is the initial expectations of Safranised Kaveri Program.. results are much better than what we thought earlier. For a half life of present M88 and moving towards 1/3rd of the life, the net trade off resulting from stable thrust at all different zones is mind boggling.. this can change very well the contours of future fleet capability due to additional thrust being available..
And still the engine life is comparable to present US engine life (as tested and results from LCA testing of 404s which has a reduced life versus advertised life) and better than Russian Engine life as well.
So we are indeed in a good position with headaches..
Will wait for the agreement news when Prez Macron visits to sign and ecosystem roadmap unveiling to post few more things on this.
Certain times, some decisions are better left out of open places..
Just wait for sometime to see few things, once some hints or some statements are out in public, the rest can be openly discussed.
Things have been slowly cooking and it's becoming better and better... A hint is the initial expectations of Safranised Kaveri Program.. results are much better than what we thought earlier. For a half life of present M88 and moving towards 1/3rd of the life, the net trade off resulting from stable thrust at all different zones is mind boggling.. this can change very well the contours of future fleet capability due to additional thrust being available..
And still the engine life is comparable to present US engine life (as tested and results from LCA testing of 404s which has a reduced life versus advertised life) and better than Russian Engine life as well.
So we are indeed in a good position with headaches..
Will wait for the agreement news when Prez Macron visits to sign and ecosystem roadmap unveiling to post few more things on this.
The Recent Political Controversy over RAFALE prices is not going away any time soon
The Congress party is going to keep making accusations in the hope that
A lie spoken a million times appears as the truth
So in such a situation the Government cannot proceed with Make in India deal
That means we have to wait till 2019 elections
By the way there is a Rumour going around that Modi will call for early elections
@Aashish Some time back I had asked you in another forum that India and France could have formed a NEW Company ie JV between Dassault and HAL
Instead of this JV called DRAL
Now just because Dassault has signed a deal with Ambani ; Congress party is going to
make it look like a Scam
In the DRAL agreement 51 percent share is with Ambani
So we could have made similar agreement with Dassault and HAL
with management control being in the hands of Dassault
Now we are stuck up with DRAL which is not going to move forward soon
Instead of this JV called DRAL
Now just because Dassault has signed a deal with Ambani ; Congress party is going to
make it look like a Scam
In the DRAL agreement 51 percent share is with Ambani
So we could have made similar agreement with Dassault and HAL
with management control being in the hands of Dassault
Now we are stuck up with DRAL which is not going to move forward soon
so are we heading for a single Kaveri engine for LCA Mk1A and AMCA? What is the likely thrust rating? above 115KN in wet thrust?
I'll be happy with a 90KN Kaveri for now, to power the Mk1A.
For AMCA, they still have 6+ years before they need a working engine.
The whole process of increasing its thrust at a later date will mean more money and French do not even look at you till you pay them upfront.
In your estimate , will we ever be able to manufacture the engine core ala Kabini or any contemporary variant of it in the future or will it be the M88 core from Safran for all future projects ?
While what @Aashish has posted is welcome news , if memory serves me right ( and all of you - Indian veterans of Older Forum / PDF can testify ) this is exactly what the GTRE / DRDO duo proposed way back in 2010-11 after talks with the then SNECMA but which the IAF had shot down . Is this the shape of things to come or are we going to develop an indigenous core of our own ? From what we read , the Chinese will come up with their own successful one shortly ( I believe they already have as per recent reports ) after a trial through fire and a lot of underperforming engines . What are your views on it ? @Aashish ; @randomradio and any other member who'd want to contribute.
Why do you exagerate the need of thrust for LCA MK1A and AMCA?
- 90 -100 Kn wet is a good value for MK1A
- AMCA is in the league of Rafale / F-35 having a total wet thrust of 150 Kn - 191Kn, so 90 - 100 Kn wet is also a good value for AMCA.
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