IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[randomradio]

There are Two Proverbs Both in Hindi and English That are Apt for this Situation

1 आधी छोड सारी को धावे, आधी मिले न सारी पावे

2 He Who Pursues Two Hares Catches Neither

Won't really apply here.

There is a 10 year difference between FGFA and AMCA.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Won't really apply here.

There is a 10 year difference between FGFA and AMCA.

Forget about AMCA ; How do we handle this F 35 offer without Offending the Americans

They are now pursuing and pressurising us relentlessly

 

[Ironhide]

Looks like the F16 is coming any which way, there was one member here who was hell bent that his sources informed him of F16 deal when every expert and every inside source here was saying the opposite, I think it was @dadeechi whose source confirmed it long back about F16s.

Also, we will be only fooling ourselves to believe all these different planes will be procured, F16 is not a cheap plane and will eat up most of the resources and after we have F16 in big numbers LM and USA will push in F35. Good Bye Sukhoi SU 57, get ready to see some cheap Migs in Pakistan Air force in the next decade, India is treating Russia like a normal seller and so we cannot expect Russia to behave any differently and sell some cheap planes to Pakistan.

And these LCA MK2 and AMCA khichdi plans, i don't even want to react to that, is this supposed to ensure success or make it a project so messed up and delayed that it may never get ready on time.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Won't really apply here.

There is a 10 year difference between FGFA and AMCA.

Without ToT and limited funding available, the difference will be infinite if the funds for AMCA is diverted to FGFA or otherimports

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Fake news. AMCA and LCA Mk2 are the only planes that will be focused upon. If there are extra resource, only then will anything else come. The news that airframe will be changed etc is a joke. No one buys a plane with obsolete airframe and no stealth

Looks like the F16 is coming any which way, there was one member here who was hell bent that his sources informed him of F16 deal when every expert and every inside source here was saying the opposite, I think it was @dadeechi whose source confirmed it long back about F16s.

Also, we will be only fooling ourselves to believe all these different planes will be procured, F16 is not a cheap plane and will eat up most of the resources and after we have F16 in big numbers LM and USA will push in F35. Good Bye Sukhoi SU 57, get ready to see some cheap Migs in Pakistan Air force in the next decade, India is treating Russia like a normal seller and so we cannot expect Russia to behave any differently and sell some cheap planes to Pakistan.

And these LCA MK2 and AMCA khichdi plans, i don't even want to react to that, is this supposed to ensure success or make it a project so messed up and delayed that it may never get ready on time.

 

[randomradio]

Forget about AMCA ; How do we handle this F 35 offer without Offending the Americans

They are now pursuing and pressurising us relentlessly

There is no F-35 offer. For the F-35 to be offered, the IAF has to request it formally.

And after that, we need ToT and stuff that the Americans won't provide anyway, so the deal is going nowhere.

Rejecting the F-35 won't offend the Americans.

 

[vstol Jockey]

The ship can carry around 20-24 aircraft depending on the types on board. When 10 fighters are added, you only have space left for another 10-15 helos.

You need to learn the air compliment of LPDs/LHDs. They not only carry transport helos but also attack helos and juan carlos class was designed to carry 10-12 AV-8Bs in addition to its normal compliment of helos.

You are asking for a compromise as if Indian manufacturing ability is low and is incapable of making more ships if needed. It is always better to have specialised roles for each vehicle and a separate LPD and carrier is sent together. Making a LPD is cheap and quick while making carrier is costly and slow. Compromising a carrier for making space for LPD is like buying a Volvo chassis to make a garbage truck.

I never suggested turning a carrier into LPD, what I suggested was converting a LPD into a multi-purpose vessel capable of operating fighters as well. There is a big difference between the two versions. these fighters can replace and compliment the attack helos carried by these LPDs to support ground operations. IN has a very different philosophy. All major ships of IN have the ability to carry two Helos. So carrying large number of Helos to support ground forces will never be a problem for IN.

1 LPD can't carry a whole regiment of tank along with other vehicles, it's either/or. A squadron is also unrealistic, most of them will be used for fleet defence.
Carrier + LPD is neither here nor there. We will end up with less aircraft and the risk to the carrier will be greater since it has to operate closer to shore.

Please read about the carrying capacity of these ships most can carry 60+ tanks which a full regiment of tanks plus the trucks and other transport equipment.
carrier+LPD is neither here nor there but LPD+carrier is a very potent ship.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

You need to learn the air compliment of LPDs/LHDs. They not only carry transport helos but also attack helos and juan carlos class was designed to carry 10-12 AV-8Bs in addition to its normal compliment of helos.

Helos are helos. Attack helos need the same space as utility helos. They are substitutable as and when needed. I know that LPDs carry helos, troops, tanks and even FICV along with large quantity of fuel. LPDs also carry other equipments like radars and resupply for ground based forces operating in distant lands.

I never suggested turning a carrier into LPD, what I suggested was converting a LPD into a multi-purpose vessel capable of operating fighters as well. There is a big difference between the two versions. these fighters can replace and compliment the attack helos carried by these LPDs to support ground operations. IN has a very different philosophy. All major ships of IN have the ability to carry two Helos. So carrying large number of Helos to support ground forces will never be a problem for IN.

Fighters need some decent runways to take off. In addition, there are other requirements like hangars, servicing depot, SAMs, high speed etc to make a ship carrying fighter planes and to give it decent defence ability. The thrust exerted by aeroplane during take off should also be well handled. This increases expense significantly and also requires design change.

If it was so simple that fighter jets could simply take off from any ship just because it was long enough and had a ski-jump, things would be far different. The concept of LPD is designed around inexpensive solution to transport equipments and troops. If the LPDs are made expensive and difficult to construct, then the point of LPD will be moot.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Helos are helos. Attack helos need the same space as utility helos. They are substitutable as and when needed. I know that LPDs carry helos, troops, tanks and even FICV along with large quantity of fuel. LPDs also carry other equipments like radars and resupply for ground based forces operating in distant lands.


Fighters need some decent runways to take off. In addition, there are other requirements like hangars, servicing depot, SAMs, high speed etc to make a ship carrying fighter planes and to give it decent defence ability. The thrust exerted by aeroplane during take off should also be well handled. This increases expense significantly and also requires design change.

If it was so simple that fighter jets could simply take off from any ship just because it was long enough and had a ski-jump, things would be far different. The concept of LPD is designed around inexpensive solution to transport equipments and troops. If the LPDs are made expensive and difficult to construct, then the point of LPD will be moot.

I think you need to read a lot more about LPds and aircraft carriers. Please go thru the wiki links of Juan carlos class and other such ships.
Spanish ship Juan Carlos I - Wikipedia
Canberra-class landing helicopter dock - Wikipedia

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

I think you need to read a lot more about LPds and aircraft carriers. Please go thru the wiki links of Juan carlos class and other such ships.
Spanish ship Juan Carlos I - Wikipedia
Canberra-class landing helicopter dock - Wikipedia

I have read about them. The only fighters they can carry are STOVL/VTOL ones like sea harrier or F35. What kind of aircrafts do you expect India to use? India has retired sea harrier and is unlikely to get F35. These LPDs are incapable of taking off ordinary plane or landing with arrestor wires and hence any other aircraft will not be used.

The sea harriers are now obsolete and can be easily taken out by any SAM or even AAA guns. The payload is also limited to 4 hardpoints. This is definitely not a good option.

If you have any other way of using a LPD as carrier, do give out steps and which plane you intend to use

 

[GuardianRED]

Continuing from
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Chatters

1. MOD/GOI had sanctioned internally the amalgamation of AMCA and LCA MK2 projects.
2. Primarily each of these planes will have the technology and technical assistance with 2 major aerospace giants.
3. The chosen candidates are - Dassault and Lockheed Martin.
4. Each of these giants will work in isolated cells comprising of either DA or LM with DRDO/ADA/HAL
5. At no point of time, there will be a direct interaction between DA and LM but the plane (LCA Mk2 and AMCA) parts, subsystems and every level of the blueprint is charted out to be sourced from our indigenous project and DRAL and TATA-LM JV based ecosystem as defined in point 2.
6. LCA Mk2 interior housing and cell manufacturing is primarily based out of F-16. with inside space, mounts and orientation drawing from the very best of LM and DA expertise and changes made accordingly..
7. In a brief, the MK2 project is like 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30% with LM and 20% with DA and the ecosystem supported by DRAL and Tata
8. AMCA is reverse of this number with 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30-35% with DA and 15-20% LM subject to critical tech flowing from LM (F-35) into AMCA or else DA will take more stake in % terms shared with ADA/HAL.
9. This critical tech of LM is allowing F-35 subsystems and integration from ADIR - Israeli F35 systems.
10. Vivek Lal of LM has been pushing for F-35 for IAF/IN with a view that IN is planning to raise an amphibious force with at least 4 LHD/LPD and sees a great opportunity for F-35 there.
11. LM and US gov has made it clear that F-35 access is only after F-16 acceptance by India in considerable numbers. (said here numerous time)
12. A separate G2G F-35 deal is supposed to have timeslot closer to 2028+ without priority clearance from Senate/POTUS, thus a greater push is via point 11 and getting accorded the priority purchase.
13. With recent IAF infrastructure plan with the French side, LM has upgraded the F-16 capability further.
14. The Drone command system of F-35 is now for integration for Indian F-16 from day 1 and is pushed as an add-on relaxation/goodie.
15. This Drone command system will enable F-16s and later users (like F-35s and in future IAF wants Rafales F4.2/AMCA) to command Guardian and Avenger NG.
16. To the IAF query on large IR and overweight of the gracefully aged F-16, there is a material change proposed by LM for the overall body of F-16 which will make it lighter and incorporate Semi Stealth Features to keep it relevant for next 30-40 years.
17. To the main contention about new F-16 finding it difficult versus more modern fighters, LM has assured MOD that it will prove its superiority and relevance
18. .To this MOD has gone ahead with IAF recommendation of a technical evaluation but added one more plane to the list of contenders - F-16, Gripen E and Mig 35.
19. The underlying thought process is that winner is pre-decided (point no 2 and 3) but the process must be followed to show relevancy and performance in a fair evaluation.for the public
20. The likely reason is to keep matters transparent for not letting any political opposition in future.
21. Also, other planes won't get cleared for the competition owing to a minimal cost, footprint, opex and Forward Base stationing + usage primarily for all missions.
22. This clears the way of the two main MII projects - one for Rafale via DRAL route and one for F-16/F-35 under SP route.
23. Next up is the timeline which will get firmed up soon.
24. Expected to finalise soon is the technical assistance in LCA Mk1A (to be inducted in sufficiently large order) project by DA and agreement of AMCA assistance by DA between GOI and French government bodies during Prez Macron Visit.
25. For the Rafale follow-on orders - the premises have become much bigger. Beyond doubt, the plan for Rafale numbers is clearly there with the rest of the plan now shaping firmly up and becoming more clearer.
26. There is also a delinking of the earlier insistence of US government for EMALS, Aircrafts and E2D Hawkeye as a package. The three main components - The French assistance in aircraft carriers, Rafale-M and also E-2D Hawkeye -piecemeal basis order is now allowed.
27. This is a great news with potentially MRCBF moving towards the change of certain aspects and systems to suit the winning air wing which will be common for both the carriers.
28. This goes in line with an earlier communique of IAF and IN clearly asking for Rafales for both the forces.
29. Next couple of years will be really busy for MOD, IAF, IN and HAL/DA/LM.
30. On squadron depletion, there is now lesser worry..the blueprint is now almost clearly spelt out.
31. Important to note the Russian negotiations for S-400 and S-500 HTK components is not firmed up with Prez Putin + Russian delegates wanting India to buy few more things (planes, ships and other things). Mig35 inclusion is appeasement to get this deal signed on priority.
32. The transition of moving the equipment from present state to more of French, Israeli and US make will be more visible with the conclusion of the deals.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @Sathya @RATHORE @vstol Jockey @indiandragon @dadeechi @Ashwin @nair @Steel @SXMX @Harry @Tarun @Ironhide @Shekhar Singh @suryakiran @Paro @Asura @_Anonymous_ @Falcon @Kshithij Sharma @bonobashi @Shajida Khan @Shaktimaan @Shashank @Avi @Arvind @lcafanboy @all others

Very sure, along with me - most members reading this will have - "Kichadi" in mind

1) Sad to say - "This list for appeasement!" ie keeping everyone happy

2) Each project could/should have been with a single vendor/consultant ie LCA MK1A/Mk2 with DA (experience in Light and Medium Combat Airframes) and AMCA with LM (Stealth)

3) If this does go ahead - Clarity of each role for each frame ie LCA and AMCA - would make this Kichadi taste better

4) Welcome news for the delinking of the IN requirements ie EMALS, E2D ... thus the argument for the favour of getting the F18s - will/can gets us these techs - is finally laid to rest!

Interesting times ahead!

 

[A Person]

Important point about the Canberra-class: the ramp is there just for looks. Contrarily to the Juan Carlos, it's not functional, it doesn't have all structural strength needed for aircraft operations. If you try to run an F-35B on it, the most probable outcome is that the aircraft will crash through the ramp...

 

[Bon Plan]

Not a good idea to make a mutant Rafale. A brand new design is better.

FGFA is very likely to go ahead, so AMCA can be developed with Dassault's assistance and marketed to both IAF/IN and ADLA/MN.

In my mind a Rafale XL use the excellent close coupled config of The Rafale, maybe with no tail, with some internal bay mainly for AAM.
The air to ground weapons are to be kept in stealthy external container, so as to avoid the unaerodynamical frame of the F35 studied to embark some AtoG weapon even in peace time or for air mission.

 

[Nick]

You need to learn the air compliment of LPDs/LHDs. They not only carry transport helos but also attack helos and juan carlos class was designed to carry 10-12 AV-8Bs in addition to its normal compliment of helos.

I was just talking about a specific case. Spain needs that capability because they don't have a carrier for air support.

We dont need to operate fixed wing aircraft from our LHDs as they'll have carrier cover. Which mean the fighters from the carriers can carry more load when operating from CATs, and the LHD can operate with their full complement of assault helos and transport helos, ergo more on-station time for close air support (combat helos compared to fighters)

 

[randomradio]

Please read about the carrying capacity of these ships most can carry 60+ tanks which a full regiment of tanks plus the trucks and other transport equipment.

I am not sure if the current ships as big enough for that. Most setups I see are 40 tanks or 14 tanks+other vehicles.

@Picdelamirand-oil? Any truth to Mistral being able to carry 60 tanks+vehicles?

LPD+carrier is a very potent ship.

Yep, I've been asking for this for a long time though.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I am not sure if the current ships as big enough for that. Most setups I see are 40 tanks or 14 tanks+other vehicles.

@Picdelamirand-oil? Any truth to Mistral being able to carry 60 tanks+vehicles?

Capacities:

• 30 days of autonomy in life (100 t),
• 60 armored including a squadron of Leclerc tanks,
• 1600 t of diesel, 540 m2 of TR5, 380 t of fresh water.
• 21 officers, 116 petty officers and 40 quartermasters and seamen
• 450 passengers (900 for a short duration), 150 men from an embarked staff
• 4 commandos transport boats (Etraco)

 

[randomradio]

In my mind a Rafale XL use the excellent close coupled config of The Rafale, maybe with no tail, with some internal bay mainly for AAM.
The air to ground weapons are to be kept in stealthy external container, so as to avoid the unaerodynamical frame of the F35 studied to embark some AtoG weapon even in peace time or for air mission.

That will just be a small strike aircraft. We are already making the Ghatak and you guys have the same plan with UK.

 

[randomradio]

Capacities:

• 30 days of autonomy in life (100 t),
• 60 armored including a squadron of Leclerc tanks,
• 1600 t of diesel, 540 m2 of TR5, 380 t of fresh water.
• 21 officers, 116 petty officers and 40 quartermasters and seamen
• 450 passengers (900 for a short duration), 150 men from an embarked staff
• 4 commandos transport boats (Etraco)

So it's not as much on the Mistral. The Canberra class is quite big though.

 

[Bon Plan]

That will just be a small strike aircraft.

is Rafale a small strike aircraft? no, a medium one.
And I was speaking of a XL model.

 

[Bon Plan]

They did tell me that most data which says that rafale has 29* ITR and 24* STR is completely wrong and the real figures are much lower. I will not post the exact data as I am not supposed to know it.

Rafale win quite all the WVR fight against all opponent (with some exeption, like a F4 winning a fight). The sole hard nut is F22.
So real data isn't really important. The final result is now well known.