IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[RATHORE]

Also @ the tech department, once again I was tagged in @Aashish 's post and once again I didn't receive any notification - please look into your notification system.

 

[Sathya]

Not happy with both LM & DA getting involved in both projects.

Gives more opportunity to delay the project .

Would have been better if given exclusive single project to them.

Atleast happy MK1A is not split like that . Only DA assistance.

 

[Sathya]

@Aashish

Russia demanded similar clubbed deal from China & Turkey ?

Any info s from Isreali PM visit ? Or is it entirely classified ?

In case of Msa / LSA getting its nod, where do u think numbers will be filled ?

How long do think LM will take to modify F16 ?

 

[vstol Jockey]

My Last presentation with IN about my MSA had some really heated discussions which included their choice of design for LHDs/LPDs and I questioned there wisdom in not having Fixed wing aircraft on their LPDs. I told them to consider a battle situation using LPDs with a battalion of marines embarked and fighting against an island nation which has been taken over by others and has an Airforce of just a few aircraft. That will force us to deploy not just the LPDs but also force us to commit an aircraft carrier to safeguard it from enemy airforce attacks. World has 183 nations as the member of UN and of these less than 50 have air forces. Nearly 133 nations have no air force. But by just creating an angled deck and using DCNS arresting gear and ski jump, MSA can deliver a devastating fire power and make each of our LPDs a self contained armed force with a Battalion of troops, with a regiment of tanks and associated transport compliment, transport helos and attack helos and a sqn of fighter aircraft. Spanish Juan carlos class will become a more potent carrier than a conventional aircraft carrier. I even suggested to In that we shud look to have IAC-2 as a combination of a true carrier and LPD.
It was bad and I had to even tell my own coursemates who were part of the presentation to try and prove me wrong. I always knew that IN is going down the drain with the company of IAF. They did tell me that most data which says that rafale has 29* ITR and 24* STR is completely wrong and the real figures are much lower. I will not post the exact data as I am not supposed to know it. And I do not know it for all practical purposes.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Not happy with both LM & DA getting involved in both projects.

Gives more opportunity to delay the project .

Would have been better if given exclusive single project to them.

Atleast happy MK1A is not split like that . Only DA assistance.

I don't think any critical part will be obtained from outside. It must be just interiors like Air condition, helmet mount etc. I can't just believe these things as they are counter intuitive and without proper logic, against historical evidence

 

[Nick]

But by just creating an angled deck and using DCNS arresting gear and ski jump, MSA can deliver a devastating fire power and make each of our LPDs a self contained armed force with a Battalion of troops, with a regiment of tanks and associated transport compliment, transport helos and attack helos and a sqn of fighter aircraft.

The problem with the Juan Carlos type amphibious ships is that the moment you reserve the hangar space for fighters, you reduce the troop airlift capability. Thereby hampering rapid amphibious assault. The ship can carry around 20-24 aircraft depending on the types on board. When 10 fighters are added, you only have space left for another 10-15 helos.

It's a good trade-off for a country like Spain or Australia that doesn't have any other aircraft carriers. And they assuredly won't be going into a warzone alone, especially in the case of Australia against China where it'll be a part of US CBG that can provide the air cover.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Continuing from
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Chatters

1. MOD/GOI had sanctioned internally the amalgamation of AMCA and LCA MK2 projects.
2. Primarily each of these planes will have the technology and technical assistance with 2 major aerospace giants.
3. The chosen candidates are - Dassault and Lockheed Martin.
4. Each of these giants will work in isolated cells comprising of either DA or LM with DRDO/ADA/HAL
5. At no point of time, there will be a direct interaction between DA and LM but the plane (LCA Mk2 and AMCA) parts, subsystems and every level of the blueprint is charted out to be sourced from our indigenous project and DRAL and TATA-LM JV based ecosystem as defined in point 2.
6. LCA Mk2 interior housing and cell manufacturing is primarily based out of F-16. with inside space, mounts and orientation drawing from the very best of LM and DA expertise and changes made accordingly..
7. In a brief, the MK2 project is like 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30% with LM and 20% with DA and the ecosystem supported by DRAL and Tata
8. AMCA is reverse of this number with 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30-35% with DA and 15-20% LM subject to critical tech flowing from LM (F-35) into AMCA or else DA will take more stake in % terms shared with ADA/HAL.
9. This critical tech of LM is allowing F-35 subsystems and integration from ADIR - Israeli F35 systems.
10. Vivek Lal of LM has been pushing for F-35 for IAF/IN with a view that IN is planning to raise an amphibious force with at least 4 LHD/LPD and sees a great opportunity for F-35 there.
11. LM and US gov has made it clear that F-35 access is only after F-16 acceptance by India in considerable numbers. (said here numerous time)
12. A separate G2G F-35 deal is supposed to have timeslot closer to 2028+ without priority clearance from Senate/POTUS, thus a greater push is via point 11 and getting accorded the priority purchase.
13. With recent IAF infrastructure plan with the French side, LM has upgraded the F-16 capability further.
14. The Drone command system of F-35 is now for integration for Indian F-16 from day 1 and is pushed as an add-on relaxation/goodie.
15. This Drone command system will enable F-16s and later users (like F-35s and in future IAF wants Rafales F4.2/AMCA) to command Guardian and Avenger NG.
16. To the IAF query on large IR and overweight of the gracefully aged F-16, there is a material change proposed by LM for the overall body of F-16 which will make it lighter and incorporate Semi Stealth Features to keep it relevant for next 30-40 years.
17. To the main contention about new F-16 finding it difficult versus more modern fighters, LM has assured MOD that it will prove its superiority and relevance
18. .To this MOD has gone ahead with IAF recommendation of a technical evaluation but added one more plane to the list of contenders - F-16, Gripen E and Mig 35.
19. The underlying thought process is that winner is pre-decided (point no 2 and 3) but the process must be followed to show relevancy and performance in a fair evaluation.for the public
20. The likely reason is to keep matters transparent for not letting any political opposition in future.
21. Also, other planes won't get cleared for the competition owing to a minimal cost, footprint, opex and Forward Base stationing + usage primarily for all missions.
22. This clears the way of the two main MII projects - one for Rafale via DRAL route and one for F-16/F-35 under SP route.
23. Next up is the timeline which will get firmed up soon.
24. Expected to finalise soon is the technical assistance in LCA Mk1A (to be inducted in sufficiently large order) project by DA and agreement of AMCA assistance by DA between GOI and French government bodies during Prez Macron Visit.
25. For the Rafale follow-on orders - the premises have become much bigger. Beyond doubt, the plan for Rafale numbers is clearly there with the rest of the plan now shaping firmly up and becoming more clearer.
26. There is also a delinking of the earlier insistence of US government for EMALS, Aircrafts and E2D Hawkeye as a package. The three main components - The French assistance in aircraft carriers, Rafale-M and also E-2D Hawkeye -piecemeal basis order is now allowed.
27. This is a great news with potentially MRCBF moving towards the change of certain aspects and systems to suit the winning air wing which will be common for both the carriers.
28. This goes in line with an earlier communique of IAF and IN clearly asking for Rafales for both the forces.
29. Next couple of years will be really busy for MOD, IAF, IN and HAL/DA/LM.
30. On squadron depletion, there is now lesser worry..the blueprint is now almost clearly spelt out.
31. Important to note the Russian negotiations for S-400 and S-500 HTK components is not firmed up with Prez Putin + Russian delegates wanting India to buy few more things (planes, ships and other things). Mig35 inclusion is appeasement to get this deal signed on priority.
32. The transition of moving the equipment from present state to more of French, Israeli and US make will be more visible with the conclusion of the deals.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @Sathya @RATHORE @vstol Jockey @indiandragon @dadeechi @Ashwin @nair @Steel @SXMX @Harry @Tarun @Ironhide @Shekhar Singh @suryakiran @Paro @Asura @_Anonymous_ @Falcon @Kshithij Sharma @bonobashi @Shajida Khan @Shaktimaan @Shashank @Avi @Arvind @lcafanboy @all others

The Planning is Very Ambitious but there are Hundreds of Issues to Be sorted out

And meanwhile our IAF will keep retiring older air frames
which means declining squadron strength

Will some deals be signed Before 2019 or after 2019

And where does that leave PAK FA

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

My Last presentation with IN about my MSA had some really heated discussions which included their choice of design for LHDs/LPDs and I questioned there wisdom in not having Fixed wing aircraft on their LPDs. I told them to consider a battle situation using LPDs with a battalion of marines embarked and fighting against an island nation which has been taken over by others and has an Airforce of just a few aircraft. That will force us to deploy not just the LPDs but also force us to commit an aircraft carrier to safeguard it from enemy airforce attacks. World has 183 nations as the member of UN and of these less than 50 have air forces. Nearly 133 nations have no air force. But by just creating an angled deck and using DCNS arresting gear and ski jump, MSA can deliver a devastating fire power and make each of our LPDs a self contained armed force with a Battalion of troops, with a regiment of tanks and associated transport compliment, transport helos and attack helos and a sqn of fighter aircraft. Spanish Juan carlos class will become a more potent carrier than a conventional aircraft carrier. I even suggested to In that we shud look to have IAC-2 as a combination of a true carrier and LPD.
It was bad and I had to even tell my own coursemates who were part of the presentation to try and prove me wrong. I always knew that IN is going down the drain with the company of IAF. They did tell me that most data which says that rafale has 29* ITR and 24* STR is completely wrong and the real figures are much lower. I will not post the exact data as I am not supposed to know it. And I do not know it for all practical purposes.

You are asking for a compromise as if Indian manufacturing ability is low and is incapable of making more ships if needed. It is always better to have specialised roles for each vehicle and a separate LPD and carrier is sent together. Making a LPD is cheap and quick while making carrier is costly and slow. Compromising a carrier for making space for LPD is like buying a Volvo chassis to make a garbage truck.

In case of an island nation needing defence, India is better off setting up bases there like japan did in Andaman, not use aircraft carrier. There must a good engineering department in Navy which will need to build ports, runways in quick manner like Japanese did in WW2. In case there is urgency, then there is a need to send multiple ships, ASW and carriers for different roles to ensure allround protection.

Don't assume that India will just run around with these limited number of equipment in case of war. Just like WW2 saw mass production of dence equipment, Vietnam war saw mass production of defence equipment, any future war will also see a mass production of equipment. But, some equipment like carriers need long time to make even when constructed with full force as there is lot of sequential contructions involved. So, such items have to be planned in advance and extra spares have to be kept in place. Replacing some parts of carrier with LPD is highly harmful

 

[Shashank]

I don't think any critical part will be obtained from outside. It must be just interiors like Air condition, helmet mount etc. I can't just believe these things as they are counter intuitive and without proper logic, against historical evidence

I spent lot if time thinking if you meant that we are too competent or completely incompetent as per you.
So you mean to say that we can develop engines, radars , airframes but cannot get small things like helmets and air conditioners etc in our fighter jets.
Reuest you to be realistic in your assessments.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

The Planning is Very Ambitious but there are Hundreds of Issues to Be sorted out

And meanwhile our IAF will keep retiring older air frames
which means declining squadron strength

Will some deals be signed Before 2019 or after 2019

And where does that leave PAK FA

Pak-Fa is scrapped. Even F16 is down the drains. Rafales are also going out. If India has to win wars, it will only be make in India. There is no urgent requirments as of now. There is no need to take decisions rashly to import in large quantity. Such short sighted import will be harmful in the long run. A balance has to be struck with current needs and future needs. Future needs are full indigenous production.

 

[Arvind]

Continuing from
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Chatters

1. MOD/GOI had sanctioned internally the amalgamation of AMCA and LCA MK2 projects.
2. Primarily each of these planes will have the technology and technical assistance with 2 major aerospace giants.
3. The chosen candidates are - Dassault and Lockheed Martin.
4. Each of these giants will work in isolated cells comprising of either DA or LM with DRDO/ADA/HAL
5. At no point of time, there will be a direct interaction between DA and LM but the plane (LCA Mk2 and AMCA) parts, subsystems and every level of the blueprint is charted out to be sourced from our indigenous project and DRAL and TATA-LM JV based ecosystem as defined in point 2.
6. LCA Mk2 interior housing and cell manufacturing is primarily based out of F-16. with inside space, mounts and orientation drawing from the very best of LM and DA expertise and changes made accordingly..
7. In a brief, the MK2 project is like 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30% with LM and 20% with DA and the ecosystem supported by DRAL and Tata
8. AMCA is reverse of this number with 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30-35% with DA and 15-20% LM subject to critical tech flowing from LM (F-35) into AMCA or else DA will take more stake in % terms shared with ADA/HAL.
9. This critical tech of LM is allowing F-35 subsystems and integration from ADIR - Israeli F35 systems.
10. Vivek Lal of LM has been pushing for F-35 for IAF/IN with a view that IN is planning to raise an amphibious force with at least 4 LHD/LPD and sees a great opportunity for F-35 there.
11. LM and US gov has made it clear that F-35 access is only after F-16 acceptance by India in considerable numbers. (said here numerous time)
12. A separate G2G F-35 deal is supposed to have timeslot closer to 2028+ without priority clearance from Senate/POTUS, thus a greater push is via point 11 and getting accorded the priority purchase.
13. With recent IAF infrastructure plan with the French side, LM has upgraded the F-16 capability further.
14. The Drone command system of F-35 is now for integration for Indian F-16 from day 1 and is pushed as an add-on relaxation/goodie.
15. This Drone command system will enable F-16s and later users (like F-35s and in future IAF wants Rafales F4.2/AMCA) to command Guardian and Avenger NG.
16. To the IAF query on large IR and overweight of the gracefully aged F-16, there is a material change proposed by LM for the overall body of F-16 which will make it lighter and incorporate Semi Stealth Features to keep it relevant for next 30-40 years.
17. To the main contention about new F-16 finding it difficult versus more modern fighters, LM has assured MOD that it will prove its superiority and relevance
18. .To this MOD has gone ahead with IAF recommendation of a technical evaluation but added one more plane to the list of contenders - F-16, Gripen E and Mig 35.
19. The underlying thought process is that winner is pre-decided (point no 2 and 3) but the process must be followed to show relevancy and performance in a fair evaluation.for the public
20. The likely reason is to keep matters transparent for not letting any political opposition in future.
21. Also, other planes won't get cleared for the competition owing to a minimal cost, footprint, opex and Forward Base stationing + usage primarily for all missions.
22. This clears the way of the two main MII projects - one for Rafale via DRAL route and one for F-16/F-35 under SP route.
23. Next up is the timeline which will get firmed up soon.
24. Expected to finalise soon is the technical assistance in LCA Mk1A (to be inducted in sufficiently large order) project by DA and agreement of AMCA assistance by DA between GOI and French government bodies during Prez Macron Visit.
25. For the Rafale follow-on orders - the premises have become much bigger. Beyond doubt, the plan for Rafale numbers is clearly there with the rest of the plan now shaping firmly up and becoming more clearer.
26. There is also a delinking of the earlier insistence of US government for EMALS, Aircrafts and E2D Hawkeye as a package. The three main components - The French assistance in aircraft carriers, Rafale-M and also E-2D Hawkeye -piecemeal basis order is now allowed.
27. This is a great news with potentially MRCBF moving towards the change of certain aspects and systems to suit the winning air wing which will be common for both the carriers.
28. This goes in line with an earlier communique of IAF and IN clearly asking for Rafales for both the forces.
29. Next couple of years will be really busy for MOD, IAF, IN and HAL/DA/LM.
30. On squadron depletion, there is now lesser worry..the blueprint is now almost clearly spelt out.
31. Important to note the Russian negotiations for S-400 and S-500 HTK components is not firmed up with Prez Putin + Russian delegates wanting India to buy few more things (planes, ships and other things). Mig35 inclusion is appeasement to get this deal signed on priority.
32. The transition of moving the equipment from present state to more of French, Israeli and US make will be more visible with the conclusion of the deals.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @Sathya @RATHORE @vstol Jockey @indiandragon @dadeechi @Ashwin @nair @Steel @SXMX @Harry @Tarun @Ironhide @Shekhar Singh @suryakiran @Paro @Asura @_Anonymous_ @Falcon @Kshithij Sharma @bonobashi @Shajida Khan @Shaktimaan @Shashank @Avi @Arvind @lcafanboy @all others

Khichdi.

Do we reckon Russians as fool that their inclusion are meant to be just for negotiation purpose and they would let it be?

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

I spent lot if time thinking if you meant that we are too competent or completely incompetent as per you.
So you mean to say that we can develop engines, radars , airframes but cannot get small things like helmets and air conditioners etc in our fighter jets.
Reuest you to be realistic in your assessments.

India already has AESA radar program, engine program in final stages and about to be completed in 1-2 years. India already has airframe and avionics section.

I really can't make sense out of this "news" that help from DA and LM is taken. If at all this is true, it is only for minor things to fasten things up. That is what I mentioned :

I can't just believe these things as they are counter intuitive and without proper logic, against historical evidence

I have been proven right several times whereby I flatly rejected any F16 and termed the RFI as merely a test for ToT. Without ToT, nothing will be bought was what I said 4 month back. And the same is happening now. Many more things I had told with an agenda of "100% indigenous production' and almost all of them are happening.

Indian scientists are extremely competent and have done a fantastic job with limited resource and hostile government of the past. DRDO used to work by itself using funds judiciously from the regular grants to pursue several projects when UPA cut funds. I have full faith in the ability of scientists. With political backing from Modi-RSS, the full potential of scientists will be realised

 

[A Person]

LM and US gov has made it clear that F-35 access is only after F-16 acceptance by India in considerable numbers. (said here numerous time)

That's the US trying to kill any further Rafale order. They want the F-16 to vacuum up all the IAF figther procurement money so that there's nothing for others.

 

[NRJ]

this is all very technical to me, in layman language:
F-16/F35 is coming to india or not ?
are we finally focusing on AMCA and tejas MK2?
and any update on Rafale

 

[randomradio]

This is all fantastic news. I do have a couple questions though:

1) Where does this leave the Pak Fa? Should we consider it a dead project where India might buy a token squadron at the most?

FGFA is still alive.

If that's the case, will the F-35 be the primary stealth aircraft for all Indian Air Arms (IAF, INAA)?

Nope. The fall back aircraft is AMCA. F-35 can't handle air superiority.

2) The point about Vivek Lall predicting that India will need F-35's for an LHD/LPD based Marine Force; I love this idea but is it likely? And again, will F-35's be India's principal stealth aircraft or might they be ordered in very limited numbers for the Marine Force?

I am hoping IN goes for it. It will free up the carriers for other missions.

But the fleet should be at least 40+ strong which we can't afford yet.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

this is all very technical to me, in layman language:
F-16/F35 is coming to india or not ?
are we finally focusing on AMCA and tejas MK2?
and any update on Rafale

And above all what happens when Modi 's Term ends ie 2024

Some plans ie F 35 are slated for 2028

And what if Trump is Not re elected

Such Long term Goals and plans must also be be broken up into short term Deliverables

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

FGFA is still alive.

You mean IAF will get Two Fifth Gen planes

 

[randomradio]

My Last presentation with IN about my MSA had some really heated discussions which included their choice of design for LHDs/LPDs and I questioned there wisdom in not having Fixed wing aircraft on their LPDs.

F-35B is a more realistic option than MSA. But MSA will be cheaper.

I told them to consider a battle situation using LPDs with a battalion of marines embarked and fighting against an island nation which has been taken over by others and has an Airforce of just a few aircraft. That will force us to deploy not just the LPDs but also force us to commit an aircraft carrier to safeguard it from enemy airforce attacks. World has 183 nations as the member of UN and of these less than 50 have air forces. Nearly 133 nations have no air force. But by just creating an angled deck and using DCNS arresting gear and ski jump, MSA can deliver a devastating fire power

I'm sure many other countries that are poor today will end up with larger air forces in 15+ years.

and make each of our LPDs a self contained armed force with a Battalion of troops, with a regiment of tanks and associated transport compliment, transport helos and attack helos and a sqn of fighter aircraft. Spanish Juan carlos class will become a more potent carrier than a conventional aircraft carrier. I even suggested to In that we shud look to have IAC-2 as a combination of a true carrier and LPD.

1 LPD can't carry a whole regiment of tank along with other vehicles, it's either/or. A squadron is also unrealistic, most of them will be used for fleet defence.

Carrier + LPD is neither here nor there. We will end up with less aircraft and the risk to the carrier will be greater since it has to operate closer to shore.

It was bad and I had to even tell my own coursemates who were part of the presentation to try and prove me wrong. I always knew that IN is going down the drain with the company of IAF. They did tell me that most data which says that rafale has 29* ITR and 24* STR is completely wrong and the real figures are much lower. I will not post the exact data as I am not supposed to know it. And I do not know it for all practical purposes.

The Rafale figures are disappointing.

 

[randomradio]

You mean IAF will get Two Fifth Gen planes

PAK FA/FGFA, AMCA... For now, two.

If we choose F-16, then F-35 is possible, but it will not clash with FGFA and AMCA since the classes and roles are different. So 3 in this case.

But I think F-35s for the IAF is impossible.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

PAK FA/FGFA, AMCA... For now, two.

If we choose F-16, then F-35 is possible, but it will not clash with FGFA and AMCA since the classes and roles are different. So 3 in this case.

But I think F-35s for the IAF is impossible.

There are Two Proverbs Both in Hindi and English That are Apt for this Situation

1 आधी छोड सारी को धावे, आधी मिले न सारी पावे

2 He Who Pursues Two Hares Catches Neither