I didn't know aircraft manufacturing was akin to rubbing the lamp and wishing for one!!
Ofcourse, who asked for full ToT anyway?
That is why it's called a "joint" development and not "You do all the work while I reap the benefits" development
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
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That is why it's called a "joint" development and not "You do all the work while I reap the benefits" development
Aren’t you being over confident? I don’t want this thread to go off topic again but could you explain in few sentences.
All these figure are artificial, we will procure what is needed at the time it is needed, what is important is to have something relevant to procure, and it's why we develop new standard, and PEA and studies of new concepts like FCAS with UK for the moment and perhaps with Germany later.
If we set up a cooperation with India on AMCA, like I asked to Macron, we will certainly limit the amount of Rafale to 225, but if not perhaps we will buy 200 Rafale MLU.
Not a good idea to make a mutant Rafale. A brand new design is better.
FGFA is very likely to go ahead, so AMCA can be developed with Dassault's assistance and marketed to both IAF/IN and ADLA/MN.
The FCAS-FG is a strike fighter. The French will most likely not got for it and the Germans will most likely buy the F-35. The Germans want it to replace their Tornados and the French have no such requirement. The FCAS-FB between France and Britain is an unmanned drone. So even that's out of the picture for us.
The French will eventually plan a Rafale replacement, that's the aircraft we can aim for a JV project. I actually prefer this to an AMCA JV.
We have become far too strong for them. PAF can't fly against the IAF in any capacity.
How many times did you rub a lamp to make a rafale?
If there is no full ToT, it is as good as importing partially. Unless joint development means that I develop part A and you develop part B and later we exchange ToT for the two parts, you can take a hike with your joint development. No one expects free benefit but merely exchange of technology to eventually get 100% ToT for all parties by equally sharing workload. Why add special terms like "joint development" unless willing to exchange technology?
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That's exactly my point. By our standards we need 800+ jets operational at any given time. By your current standards, you are happy with 300. So the draw down in ADLA numbers has more to do with the end of Cold War rather than a "Rafale is so good that we only need 1/3rd the numbers" argument. If the Cold War continued, you would have had 300 jets operational by now.
Russia is getting strong again. Once their economy bounces back, they will become a threat eventually. So Rafale's future is bright.
No credibility.
The IAF has no interest in a fighter that isn't an air superiority aircraft in the first place.
StratPost understands nothing.
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IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
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- MOD/GOI had sanctioned internally the amalgamation of AMCA and LCA MK2 projects.
- Primarily each of these planes will have the technology and technical assistance with 2 major aerospace giants.
- The chosen candidates are - Dassault and Lockheed Martin.
- Each of these giants will work in isolated cells comprising of either DA or LM with DRDO/ADA/HAL
- At no point of time, there will be a direct interaction between DA and LM but the plane (LCA Mk2 and AMCA) parts, subsystems and every level of the blueprint is charted out to be sourced from our indigenous project and DRAL and TATA-LM JV based ecosystem as defined in point 2.
- LCA Mk2 interior housing and cell manufacturing is primarily based out of F-16. with inside space, mounts and orientation drawing from the very best of LM and DA expertise and changes made accordingly..
- In a brief, the MK2 project is like 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30% with LM and 20% with DA and the ecosystem supported by DRAL and Tata
- AMCA is reverse of this number with 50% with HAL/ADA/DRDO, 30-35% with DA and 15-20% LM subject to critical tech flowing from LM (F-35) into AMCA or else DA will take more stake in % terms shared with ADA/HAL.
- This critical tech of LM is allowing F-35 subsystems and integration from ADIR - Israeli F35 systems.
- Vivek Lal of LM has been pushing for F-35 for IAF/IN with a view that IN is planning to raise an amphibious force with at least 4 LHD/LPD and sees a great opportunity for F-35 there.
- LM and US gov has made it clear that F-35 access is only after F-16 acceptance by India in considerable numbers. (said here numerous time)
- A separate G2G F-35 deal is supposed to have timeslot closer to 2028+ without priority clearance from Senate/POTUS, thus a greater push is via point 11 and getting accorded the priority purchase.
- With recent IAF infrastructure plan with the French side, LM has upgraded the F-16 capability further.
- The Drone command system of F-35 is now for integration for Indian F-16 from day 1 and is pushed as an add-on relaxation/goodie.
- This Drone command system will enable F-16s and later users (like F-35s and in future IAF wants Rafales F4.2/AMCA) to command Guardian and Avenger NG.
- To the IAF query on large IR and overweight of the gracefully aged F-16, there is a material change proposed by LM for the overall body of F-16 which will make it lighter and incorporate Semi Stealth Features to keep it relevant for next 30-40 years.
- To the main contention about new F-16 finding it difficult versus more modern fighters, LM has assured MOD that it will prove its superiority and relevance
- .To this MOD has gone ahead with IAF recommendation of a technical evaluation but added one more plane to the list of contenders - F-16, Gripen E and Mig 35.
- The underlying thought process is that winner is pre-decided (point no 2 and 3) but the process must be followed to show relevancy and performance in a fair evaluation.for the public
- The likely reason is to keep matters transparent for not letting any political opposition in future.
- Also, other planes won't get cleared for the competition owing to a minimal cost, footprint, opex and Forward Base stationing + usage primarily for all missions.
- This clears the way of the two main MII projects - one for Rafale via DRAL route and one for F-16/F-35 under SP route.
- Next up is the timeline which will get firmed up soon.
- Expected to finalise soon is the technical assistance in LCA Mk1A (to be inducted in sufficiently large order) project by DA and agreement of AMCA assistance by DA between GOI and French government bodies during Prez Macron Visit.
- For the Rafale follow-on orders - the premises have become much bigger. Beyond doubt, the plan for Rafale numbers is clearly there with the rest of the plan now shaping firmly up and becoming more clearer.
- There is also a delinking of the earlier insistence of US government for EMALS, Aircrafts and E2D Hawkeye as a package. The three main components - The French assistance in aircraft carriers, Rafale-M and also E-2D Hawkeye -piecemeal basis order is now allowed.
- This is a great news with potentially MRCBF moving towards the change of certain aspects and systems to suit the winning air wing which will be common for both the carriers.
- This goes in line with an earlier communique of IAF and IN clearly asking for Rafales for both the forces.
- Next couple of years will be really busy for MOD, IAF, IN and HAL/DA/LM.
- On squadron depletion, there is now lesser worry..the blueprint is now almost clearly spelt out.
- Important to note the Russian negotiations for S-400 and S-500 HTK components is not firmed up with Prez Putin + Russian delegates wanting India to buy few more things (planes, ships and other things). Mig35 inclusion is appeasement to get this deal signed on priority.
- The transition of moving the equipment from present state to more of French, Israeli and US make will be more visible with the conclusion of the deals.
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India doesn't have the money for all this. If at all F-16 is selected then you can kiss any dream of 100+ Rafale fleet with MII goodbye.
LOL and how long will it take them to produce, test and certify this new body? Doesn't sound very coherent or realistic.
but the US will not even sell these legacy F-16 without India signing CISMOA and another agreement!
Producing new airframe from composite is an extremely tedious task. As of now, F16 is 80% Aluminium, 15% other metal like steel and 5% composite like glass fibre etc. It will also have higher payload and max speed as empty weight reduction will take place.
Earlier it was EMALS + E2D haweye+ Airwing of US origin+ technical assistance in IAC2 Vishal.
its now changed to whatever India wants to select and not subject to full package or nothing attitude.
This is all fantastic news. I do have a couple questions though:
1) Where does this leave the Pak Fa? Should we consider it a dead project where India might buy a token squadron at the most? If that's the case, will the F-35 be the primary stealth aircraft for all Indian Air Arms (IAF, INAA)?
2) The point about Vivek Lall predicting that India will need F-35's for an LHD/LPD based Marine Force; I love this idea but is it likely? And again, will F-35's be India's principal stealth aircraft or might they be ordered in very limited numbers for the Marine Force?
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