India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[_Anonymous_]

After Pak Army came to know that the
Polish Resolution would have saved them the Humiliation of Surrendering before India

They wanted to know who stopped it
And the Answer was Bhutto

It was not just Zia who hated him
The entire Pak Army wanted to kill him

One more thing
After 71 debacle, it was Bhutto who was
in secure and worried about a coup

So he tried to create a large Para military
Force that would report to him

And two he appointed A Muhajir Zia ul Haq
As COAS

But The Army wanted to kill him and they did

It's moot. The issue was always about maintaining the eastern half of their country and political unity. Whether a ceasefire was established or a surrender exacted, Bangladesh would have been a reality in any which way. And that was a huge blow to the prestige of the PA.

It could be argued that Bhutto engineered this debacle making Gen Yahya & the PA the scapegoats as some Pakistani commentators, historians and academics have suggested. But Bhutto could not have acted in isolation. These were collective decisions taken by the Gen Yahya administration then along with the PA. Having said that, he was and could be a dangerous foe - something both Gen Zia & the PA knew.

 

[Milspec]

It's moot. The issue was always about maintaining the eastern half of their country and political unity. Whether a ceasefire was established or a surrender exacted, Bangladesh would have been a reality in any which way. And that was a huge blow to the prestige of the PA.

It could be argued that Bhutto engineered this debacle making Gen Yahya & the PA the scapegoats as some Pakistani commentators, historians and academics have suggested. But Bhutto could not have acted in isolation. These were collective decisions taken by the Gen Yahya administration then along with the PA. Having said that, he was and could be a dangerous foe - something both Gen Zia & the PA knew.

One common mistake is, Coup's are executed by a powerful General; as in case of both Zia and Musharraf, it was a contingent of high ranking officers (military and non military)headed by COAS.
Remember Ex-DG ISI Hamid Gul being disappointed not being appointed President by Musharraf?

 

[_Anonymous_]

One common mistake is, Coup's are executed by a powerful General; as in case of both Zia and Musharraf, it was a contingent of high ranking officers (military and non military)headed by COAS.
Remember Ex-DG ISI Hamid Gul being disappointed not being appointed President by Musharraf?

I think you mean coups aren't executed by a powerful general but by a clique of high ranking officers headed by a powerful general.

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

@safriz @_Anonymous_ @Milspec
Not many people know this but

The Reason Zia Ul Haq HANGED Bhutto
Was Because Bhutto rejected the Ceasefire
Proposal in the UN

It was an act of Betrayal by Bhutto

Bhutto wanted Pak Army to lose
And Surrender , thereby smashing its
Domestic image and high profile for ever

Pak Army generals realised this plan of Bhutto after the war

If Bhutto had accepted this UN mandated
Ceasefire, Pak Army would not have to sign the instrument of Surrender

And the transfer of power would have happened peacefully

So you are basically saying that Bhutto knew that Pakistan Army is nothing but Cowardice & yellow army, who will shit their pants the movement a unarmed Indian officer will present himself. As Niazi did. Nothing but conspiracy theories been quoted by you my friend
Or in reality Butto took a calculated call, the shaming of getting ceasefire via UN (that Pakistan were really on the run), it would be better to get Indian army directly in the ceasefire agreement the next day & withdraw be better idea. As was likely to happen except for JFR Jacob.
We must remember western media & Pakistan was reporting Pakistan gains & successes till then. And had India agreed to ceasefire, the false history pakistan media houses claimed till that date, would have been exactly as documented by rest of world, without boots on ground & pro Pakistan tilt.
It was the Pakistan Army own incompetence & cowardice, that they couldnt hold on, till rest of world forced India to ceasefire in a day or two & withdraw.
Its honestly being a case of being wiser after event & looking for a scape goat, military to consolidate it power, rather then get ridiculed, that Bhutto had to go.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

So you are basically saying that Bhutto knew that Pakistan Army is nothing but Cowardice & yellow army, who will shit their pants the movement a unarmed Indian officer will present himself. As Niazi did. Nothing but conspiracy theories been quoted by you my friend
Or in reality Butto took a calculated call, the shaming of getting ceasefire via UN (that Pakistan were really on the run), it would be better to get Indian army directly in the ceasefire agreement & withdraw be better idea. As was likely to happen except for JFR Jacob.
We must remember western media & Pakistan was reporting Pakistan gains & successes till then. And had India agreed to ceasefire, the false history pakistan media houses claimed till that date, would have been exactly as documented by rest of world, without boots on ground & pro Pakistan tilt.
It was the Pakistan Army own incompetence & cowardice, that they couldnt hold on, till rest of world forced India to ceasefire in a day or two & withdraw.
Its honestly being a case of being wiser after event & looking for a scape goat, military to consolidate it power, rather then get ridiculed, that Bhutto had to go.

Yaar please Google " Bhutto Rejected Poland
Resolution "

You will get all your answers

@safriz @randomradio @Milspec
@_Anonymous_

Smile Pakistan, Your F-16 is on my Radar: IAF – Indian Defence Research Wing

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

Yaar please Google " Bhutto Rejected Poland
Resolution "

You will get all your answers

Pls read what i said again, Never disputed Bhutto Rejected Poland Resolution, but same could be achieved by directly working on ceasefire with Indian Army the next day & better face saving & better ability to retain narrative by Pak at the end of it. Abet pakistan Army cowardice that it didnt happen. With Poland Agreement, India Army could be out of play, but India could still arm Mukti Bahini & keep fight going, but with Indian Army agree to ceasefire directly with Pakistan, would have taken the wind out of Bahini momement.
Bhutto could never have planned that Niazi will not follow the ceasefire agreement handed to him by Bhutto/Pakistan Govt & buckle in

Requoting to help you again
"So you are basically saying that Bhutto knew that Pakistan Army is nothing but Cowardice & yellow army, who will shit their pants the movement a unarmed Indian officer will present himself. As Niazi did. Nothing but conspiracy theories been quoted by you my friend
Or in reality Butto took a calculated call, the shaming of getting ceasefire via UN (that Pakistan were really on the run), it would be better to get Indian army directly in the ceasefire agreement the next day & withdraw be better idea. As was likely to happen except for JFR Jacob.
We must remember western media & Pakistan was reporting Pakistan gains & successes till then. And had India agreed to ceasefire, the false history pakistan media houses claimed till that date, would have been exactly as documented by rest of world, without boots on ground & pro Pakistan tilt.
It was the Pakistan Army own incompetence & cowardice, that they couldnt hold on, till rest of world forced India to ceasefire in a day or two & withdraw.
Its honestly being a case of being wiser after event & looking for a scape goat, military to consolidate it power, rather then get ridiculed, that Bhutto had to go. "

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Pls read what i said again, Never disputed Bhutto Rejected Poland Resolution, but same could be achieved by directly working on ceasefire with Indian Army the next day & better face saving & better ability to retain narrative by Pak at the end of it. Abet pakistan Army cowardice that it didnt happen. With Poland Agreement, India Army could be out of play, but India could still arm Mukti Bahini, but with Indian Army agree to ceasefire directly with Pakistan, would have taken the wind out of Bahini momement.
Bhutto could never have planned that Niazi will not follow the ceasefire agreement handed to him by Butto/Pakistan Govt & buckle in

Requoting to help you again
"So you are basically saying that Bhutto knew that Pakistan Army is nothing but Cowardice & yellow army, who will shit their pants the movement a unarmed Indian officer will present himself. As Niazi did. Nothing but conspiracy theories been quoted by you my friend
Or in reality Butto took a calculated call, the shaming of getting ceasefire via UN (that Pakistan were really on the run), it would be better to get Indian army directly in the ceasefire agreement the next day & withdraw be better idea. As was likely to happen except for JFR Jacob.
We must remember western media & Pakistan was reporting Pakistan gains & successes till then. And had India agreed to ceasefire, the false history pakistan media houses claimed till that date, would have been exactly as documented by rest of world, without boots on ground & pro Pakistan tilt.
It was the Pakistan Army own incompetence & cowardice, that they couldnt hold on, till rest of world forced India to ceasefire in a day or two & withdraw.
Its honestly being a case of being wiser after event & looking for a scape goat, military to consolidate it power, rather then get ridiculed, that Bhutto had to go. "

See what ever I wrote was Not my personal assessment

I have read several articles written by Pakistanis as to why Bhutto rejected the polish resolution

And they all agree that Bhutto wanted to Destroy the Pak Army by making it undergo
A Humiliating surrender before India

Infact Niazi later told that he Talked to Bhutto on phone and said this Polish resolution is Good

But Bhutto did a drama that " I can not hear you "
And banged the phone from New York

The Polish Resolution - Criterion Quarterly

Even Musharraf said the same thing in his book

 

[_Anonymous_]

@safriz @randomradio @Milspec
@_Anonymous_

Smile Pakistan, Your F-16 is on my Radar: IAF – Indian Defence Research Wing

I find it hard to believe that the IAF had just now come across the radar signature of the F-16 given that the Israelis fly it & the Singapore AF does among other Indian allies.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I find it hard to believe that the IAF had just now come across the radar signature of the F-16 given that the Israelis fly it & the Singapore AF does among other Indian allies.

This was captured by our Awacs

It is proof that F 16 crashed

 

[_Anonymous_]

@safriz @randomradio @Milspec
@_Anonymous_

Smile Pakistan, Your F-16 is on my Radar: IAF – Indian Defence Research Wing

Somehow I'm not getting your tag alerts. @nair ; @Bharath ; @Ashwin ; @Falcon ; @Arvind

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

I have read several articles written by Pakistanis

Thats the problem - written by Pakistan military or part of intelligence apparatus. Pakistan doesnt have a concept of truth or lies, but "Biyana" meaning "narrative", my narrative Vs ur narrative etc. They being so habitual lairs, reciting Biyana/narrative, that after a while they forget which part is truth & what is false only part of state narrative.

You still havent been able to logically explain, that had Niazi followed the documented handed over to him by Pakistan govt of ceasefire between India/Pakistan, wont it had been better result than Poland Agreement for Pakistan, in many ways
"Never disputed Bhutto Rejected Poland Resolution, but same could be achieved by directly working on ceasefire with Indian Army the next day & better face saving & better ability to retain narrative by Pak at the end of it. Abet pakistan Army cowardice that it didnt happen. With Poland Agreement, India Army could be out of play, but India could still arm Mukti Bahini & keep fight going, but with Indian Army agree to ceasefire directly with Pakistan, would have taken the wind out of Bahini momement.
Bhutto could never have planned that Niazi will not follow the ceasefire agreement handed to him by Bhutto/Pakistan Govt & buckle in"

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@LoneWolfSandeep

What ever happened in 1971 Totally Changed the DNA of Pak Army

It became a Jihadi Army

The Religious Extremism that was deliberately introduced by Zia was because
Of 1971 surrender

So Bhutto should also be blamed for
The Present day Terrorist and Jihadi loving Pak Army

 

[Shekhar Singh]

I would like request all the forumers that don't call these Pakistanis tall heighted, strong built, etc etc. They are physically poorest people in the world. Look at games tally, even in Asian games, their rank is below Nepal.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Thats the problem - written by Pakistan military or part of intelligence apparatus.
You still havent been able to logically explain, that had Niazi followed the documented handed over to him by Pakistan govt of ceasefire between India/Pakistan, wont it had been better result than Poland Agreement for Pakistan, in many ways
"Never disputed Bhutto Rejected Poland Resolution, but same could be achieved by directly working on ceasefire with Indian Army the next day & better face saving & better ability to retain narrative by Pak at the end of it. Abet pakistan Army cowardice that it didnt happen. With Poland Agreement, India Army could be out of play, but India could still arm Mukti Bahini & keep fight going, but with Indian Army agree to ceasefire directly with Pakistan, would have taken the wind out of Bahini momement.
Bhutto could never have planned that Niazi will not follow the ceasefire agreement handed to him by Bhutto/Pakistan Govt & buckle in"

The Polish Resolution - Criterion Quarterly

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

The Polish Resolution - Criterion Quarterly

I know it dear & still my earlier point remain same

I would like request all the forumers that don't call these Pakistanis tall heighted, strong built, etc etc.

Everyone used in Sarcasm am sure

Look at games tally, even in Asian games, their rank is below Nepal.

These modern days games tally is directly proportional to Country HDI, more the country develops more it gets medals.
Pakistan delibretly choose to keep vast majority in dark ages for recruitment in Jihadi drive against India/Afganistan/Iran & rest of western nations. Hence it reflects in medals.

 

[Ashwin]

Somehow I'm not getting your tag alerts. @nair ; @Bharath ; @Ashwin ; @Falcon ; @Arvind

because it was edited. (He added the tag after)

@safriz @randomradio @Milspec
@_Anonymous_

Smile Pakistan, Your F-16 is on my Radar: IAF – Indian Defence Research Wing

And what is the source of the article? **** has a history of making things up.

 

[Nilgiri]

What @Nilgiri said was India supporting elements within the UN that want to break the UN, stating that countries with in the P5 could want that too. When I inquired as to which countries in P5 would want that(break up of UN that is) and why, @Nilgiri responded with the tensions between P3 and the P2(nothing to do with us, just tensions within themselves). That's when I mentioned losing Russia would be harmful for us.

You seem to not understand at all what I was saying....did I mention once taking an overt side between the P3 and P2? Sigh....

Chanakya would give you an F at best.

 

[Nilgiri]

1971 was Mukti Bahini victory, and from Kargil we still hold one peak to this date.

Then why didn't you sign the surrender document with them? You explicitly only wanted to surrender to India.

You should have manned up and surrendered to the right people (and taken the results of doing that...i.e all the lynching your fauj would have gotten as result). Instead you acted like cheap cowards....in a rush to surrender for protection from the crimes you did.

Even your musharraf cried in final shock of the result and verdict....all because your ISPR was busy making lies back then (to hide the truth) just like it makes lies today. Then the truth finally comes out and you lot show just how crybaby you lot are....I mean releasing a stamp about 90,000 POWs for "world conscience"?...that too after what you lot did in East Pakistan in first place? Give me a break.

 

[safriz]

Abhinandan Mig-21 was found with both R-73 missiles. How indians claim that he shot down Pakistani F-16?

CU2328 the shot down Indian MIG-21 with blast fragments damage by a Pakistani Air to air missile.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Abhinandan Mig-21 was found with both R-73 missiles. How indians claim that he shot down Pakistani F-16?

Source? Proof?
BTW, Mig-21 Bis has 4 hard points.