India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[Hellfire]

But then the question is when PAF was firing their AMRAAM's at will why did we held ourselves?

Probably abinandan's crash would have changed the real plan behind the RoE initially put in place...

Whew.... after so many pages we head back to same question already addressed earlier.

Let me re-address it once again.

BVRAAMs need a RADAR "fix" for getting a "firing solution". With active jamming, the actual range reduces. Both sides had active jammers. That is why, F-16s missed with AMRAAMs. As the range closes in i.e. the opposing aircrafts move towards each other, there is a distance wherein a "burn through' of jammers occurs, the range being dependent on the platform's capability with respect to other. Usually, that shall be in a range wherein the opposing aircraft is in the outside envelope of the WVR engagement - aka the Dogfight phase.

Now coming to Mig-21s. What appears to have happened is that the F-16 which was targeted by Wg Cdr Abhinandan, was WVR. Probably, as his R-73 found the mark, another aircraft may have acquired him as the burn through occurred quickly as he moved out from the protective layer of the more powerful jammers of Su-30.

 

[Hellfire]

Sir, they did miss the target because of the CAP deployed by the IAF,

My sincere request. Read a bit about PGM munitions, understand about them and then try and figure out what happened. The probability of 100% missing the targets is - quite low.

that's an official statement. They intruded , we stopped them. Now they have been deploying drones and sending them inside Indian airspace near Rajasthan and we are shooting them down. My point is, even if IAF had raided their Forward posts this would have not given third parties chance to intervene only because Imran Khan is reluctant in returning the POW. My point is we gave them chance to conduct PSYop through our media with the help of POW.

You are actually confusing me here. Just can not understand the point you are trying to make/rebut.

Aggression is not down, IN is all deployed and ready for action, the ball is in our court, Pakistanis are expecting a retaliation. Because time is ticking and Masood Azhar is still out.

Okay.

Thanks for the information.

 

[vstol Jockey]

If our ROE is implemented our pilot should have been dismissed for disobeying a direct order, loss of military equipment through carelessness and attempting to create conditions wherein the nation was about to be pushed into a war. Their task, as delegated by the Political Leadership of the country, was to prevent the ingress of the PAF, which they undertook. Till the gentleman, in quest to get a personal kill, crossed the Line of Control, thereby undertaking an aggression against the neighbouring country thereby undermining the diplomatic position of Government of India of the IAF strikes being pre-emptive anti-terror strikes. His biggest crime - getting shot, and after that getting captured. That was a very serious set back to our diplomatic posturing, let their be no doubt of that.

In short, he disobeyed all orders, both issued and implied, of all concerned all along the chain of command.

Very clear!

We have ROEs because they are meant to control conflict escalation. Otherwise, if a bullet is fired and, sans ROE, we retaliate with artillery guns and the other side, in turn, bring in Air Force, what will you be having?

Our ROE was in consonance with the directive given to the Defence Forces of the Indian Union, sworn by the Constitution of India to follow the legal political directive to undertake military operations within the scope as defined by the Government of India, duly elected by the People of India.

Let me know if any of our members here have objection to the said control mechanism. I shall surely enlist their support and overthrow the GoI and appoint myself the dictator.

Few months back, an Israeli AF F-16 was shot down while attacking a syrian site. The pilots also got injured while bailing out and do you know what Israel AF had to say about the incident?
They said they will inquire as to why the pilot persisted with his attack when he was clearly getting MWR/RWR signals that he has been locked on? The strike had sufficient elements to complete the job and he should have saved himself and the aircraft instead of persisting with the attack.
If you are a nation as small as Israel and fight to survive, you will have such a mentality. Loss of a platform is bigger loss than leaving the enemy positions intact. You can attack them again. But a platform lost means you have another two pilots redundent on ground who were supposed to use the same platform later in the day.

 

[Hellfire]

Abhinandan did do all that.

Point is ROE is meant to provide a framework. If we all start throwing away the ROE, we shall have India at war every day. And the citizens demanding the head of the idiot who started it everytime.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Abhinandan did do all that.

When a radar and the missile is locked on to you, the other elements in your strike are now free from that weapon system, so your aim should be to keep that launcher engaged by keeping yourself safe and let others do the job who are not illuminated by this launcher. Its like drawing fire on yourself to keep others safe and finally run away. But what our guy did was that while all others were safe, he went in for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Hellfire]

Few months back, an Israeli AF F-16 was shot down while attacking a syrian site. The pilots also got injured while bailing out and do you know what Israel AF had to say about the incident?
They said they will inquire as to why the pilot persisted with his attack when he was clearly gatting MWR/RWR signals that he has been locked on? The strike had sufficient elements to complete the job and he should have saved himself and the aircraft instead of persisting with the attack.
If you are a nation as small as Israel and fight to survive, you will have such a mentality. Loss of a platform is bigger loss than leaving the enemy positions intact. You can attack them again. But a platform lost means you have another two pilots redundent on ground who were supposed to use the same platform later in the day.

Sir.

The problem in this forum is that too many head over to PDF, which has evolved from Pak Def Forum to Perpetual Dumb F#$%s. And then they bristle at the propaganda those jokers are spewing by the minute to flag their nation's morale, and then head back here, claiming they won the perception war.

While quietly, what is actually going on the ground, no one wants to see.

Now they are asking why the data will not be released. Without realizing that the information is in open source, but it is not my job to join the dots on an open forum for the opposite side too. Else, they shall be able to pinpoint our platforms which need not be. And that can also give them a lot of insight into our capability to keep an eye on them, thereby allowing them to make adjustments to deal with the same in a future zone.

Only in India will we see our people clamoring to know details which no one, especially not the enemy, should know. We might as well take them on a tour to all our underground sites!

 

[screambowl]

There's no retaliation due. As of now this episode is behind us, the chapter closed and de escalation followed. Till the next such episode, where we shall take off from where we left. What we are seeing now is a prolonged show of shadow boxing.

If India fails in it's objective of cornering Masood Azhar and giving disproportionate and a bl**dy response to Pakistan then it will be first conventional and diplomatic dent on Indian image. Now India cannot step back.

 

[HighWest]

Whew.... after so many pages we head back to same question already addressed earlier.

Let me re-address it once again.

BVRAAMs need a RADAR "fix" for getting a "firing solution". With active jamming, the actual range reduces. Both sides had active jammers. That is why, F-16s missed with AMRAAMs. As the range closes in i.e. the opposing aircrafts move towards each other, there is a distance wherein a "burn through' of jammers occurs, the range being dependent on the platform's capability with respect to other. Usually, that shall be in a range wherein the opposing aircraft is in the outside envelope of the WVR engagement - aka the Dogfight phase.

Now coming to Mig-21s. What appears to have happened is that the F-16 which was targeted by Wg Cdr Abhinandan, was WVR. Probably, as his R-73 found the mark, another aircraft may have acquired him as the burn through occurred quickly as he moved out from the protective layer of the more powerful jammers of Su-30.

Doesn't the AIM-120 have a "Home on Jam" mode?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Sir.

The problem in this forum is that too many head over to PDF, which has evolved from Pak Def Forum to Perpetual Dumb F#$%s. And then they bristle at the propaganda those jokers are spewing by the minute to flag their nation's morale, and then head back here, claiming they won the perception war.

While quietly, what is actually going on the ground, no one wants to see.

Now they are asking why the data will not be released. Without realizing that the information is in open source, but it is not my job to join the dots on an open forum for the opposite side too. Else, they shall be able to pinpoint our platforms which need not be. And that can also give them a lot of insight into our capability to keep an eye on them, thereby allowing them to make adjustments to deal with the same in a future zone.

Only in India will we see our people clamoring to know details which no one, especially not the enemy, should know. We might as well take them on a tour to all our underground sites!

Exactly. I was opposed to showing off the proof of previous surgical strikes and I am again opposed to sharing anything about this strike. There is no reason why we must share the data we have with anyone other than those who matter and need to know. People with lower pay cheque have no reason to ask for such an information.

 

[Star Wars]

What's happening in Makwal sector, BR reporting that Pak Helos are firing at us....
As per Sputnik, Pakistanis using Choppers as support.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Doesn't the AIM-120 have a "Home on Jam" mode?

Do you know how easy it is to fool the HOJ? The jammer is coupled with RWR. The moment it sees no signal from the seeker head, it also stops jamming. Now the missile is still in air and travelling at nearly mach-4. What happens in these split seconds when the missile has no data whatsoever and flying in the air like slug/bullet? can it attack and aircraft which in the meantime will maneuvre out of the seeker head arc.
Once the seeker head opens, the missile is no more guided by the launch platform. The position inputs of the target stop.

 

[screambowl]

My sincere request. Read a bit about PGM munitions, understand about them and then try and figure out what happened. The probability of 100% missing the targets is - quite low

Sir, that terrain is mountainous, if the aim itself is incorrect, the payload would fall somewhere else. And thats what happened. Pakistanis may have got no time to actually conduct a proper raid and got themselves involved into a dog fight. So they urgently dropped their ammo to lose some weight and prepare for aerial engagement.
Here, IAF succeeded

You are actually confusing me here. Just can not understand the point you are trying to make/rebut.

Failure is when our pilot was taken as POW slow or no military reaction from India gave Pakistan time to begin their PSYWAR and call for help to de-escalate. The confusion in the government was, India was clear not to target any Pakistani military installation. Hence forth India did not retaliate but after downing their F16, this was a green signal that yes now is the time to raid their military bases. But India stayed silent.

 

[NKVD]

Sir.

The problem in this forum is that too many head over to PDF, which has evolved from Pak Def Forum to Perpetual Dumb F#$%s. And then they bristle at the propaganda those jokers are spewing by the minute to flag their nation's morale, and then head back here, claiming they won the perception war.

While quietly, what is actually going on the ground, no one wants to see.

Now they are asking why the data will not be released. Without realizing that the information is in open source, but it is not my job to join the dots on an open forum for the opposite side too. Else, they shall be able to pinpoint our platforms which need not be. And that can also give them a lot of insight into our capability to keep an eye on them, thereby allowing them to make adjustments to deal with the same in a future zone.

Only in India will we see our people clamoring to know details which no one, especially not the enemy, should know. We might as well take them on a tour to all our underground sites!

its Habitual
They Won perception war as per them in 1965.Then the 71 Hit them.
I am Happy on what has happened Specially the NY Times Article on how Vintage 4th largest army in World Is ??
Hope Some Official in GHQ Take a Note And Dare To take Bold Steps What Musharraf did in 1999

 

[vstol Jockey]

What's happening in Makwal sector, BR reporting that Pak Helos are firing at us....
As per Sputnik, Pakistanis using Choppers as support.

PA will be inviting full spectrum of air operations against them if they use Attack helos.

 

[Star Wars]

PA will be inviting full spectrum of air operations against them if they use Attack helos.

Seems like there is a complete information black out from Makwal sector.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

Hit arrest caught the attention of India media and propelled govt to shift it's attention from Masood to getting back the private Ryan, fearing they would kill him like Capt Sourbh Kaliya and Ajay Ahuja. In our own country Pakistan was being applaud this led to the international intervention.

Even this could be countered if government had announced that it was due to missile threat which Pakistan feared, but from day 1 , our government is mum.

Also I remember clearly that a press conference was scheduled at 5PM by all three service chief, all indications were the act of Pakistan will be declared act of war and at 4:45PM after lot of waiting of a phone call from India Pakistani PM unilaterally surrendered and declared release of Abhinandan next day, that's when our plans to escalate became infeasible with every nation asking us to reduce tensions.

Whew.... after so many pages we head back to same question already addressed earlier.

Let me re-address it once again.

BVRAAMs need a RADAR "fix" for getting a "firing solution". With active jamming, the actual range reduces. Both sides had active jammers. That is why, F-16s missed with AMRAAMs. As the range closes in i.e. the opposing aircrafts move towards each other, there is a distance wherein a "burn through' of jammers occurs, the range being dependent on the platform's capability with respect to other. Usually, that shall be in a range wherein the opposing aircraft is in the outside envelope of the WVR engagement - aka the Dogfight phase.

Now coming to Mig-21s. What appears to have happened is that the F-16 which was targeted by Wg Cdr Abhinandan, was WVR. Probably, as his R-73 found the mark, another aircraft may have acquired him as the burn through occurred quickly as he moved out from the protective layer of the more powerful jammers of Su-30.

Sir you are adressing the ROE question from technical and probably tactical point of view however question is political and emotional. When BVR missile was fired it should have been end of restraint from India as it was direct attack with intent to kill. Sliding few bombs from stand off range for symbolic purpose is different.

I hope that "operations are ongoing" part holds otherwise not engaging after Su30 was fired upon in Indian territory was not logical.

 

[_Anonymous_]

If our ROE is implemented our pilot should have been dismissed for disobeying a direct order, loss of military equipment through carelessness and attempting to create conditions wherein the nation was about to be pushed into a war. Their task, as delegated by the Political Leadership of the country, was to prevent the ingress of the PAF, which they undertook. Till the gentleman, in quest to get a personal kill, crossed the Line of Control, thereby undertaking an aggression against the neighbouring country thereby undermining the diplomatic position of Government of India of the IAF strikes being pre-emptive anti-terror strikes. His biggest crime - getting shot, and after that getting captured. That was a very serious set back to our diplomatic posturing, let their be no doubt of that.

In short, he disobeyed all orders, both issued and implied, of all concerned all along the chain of command.

Very clear!

We have ROEs because they are meant to control conflict escalation. Otherwise, if a bullet is fired and, sans ROE, we retaliate with artillery guns and the other side, in turn, bring in Air Force, what will you be having?

Our ROE was in consonance with the directive given to the Defence Forces of the Indian Union, sworn by the Constitution of India to follow the legal political directive to undertake military operations within the scope as defined by the Government of India, duly elected by the People of India.

Let me know if any of our members here have objection to the said control mechanism. I shall surely enlist their support and overthrow the GoI and appoint myself the dictator.

If it is our contention that we launched " pre emptive terror strikes " across the LoC, did both the political & security leadership of the country think that the Pakistanis wouldn't retaliate?

In the event, they did, in broad daylight. Whether their ingress was a few metres within our territory or a few kms, they crossed over and dropped bombs.We contend, they planned to target our military installations but upon being challenged, they had to jettison it in a place which didn't cause any material or collateral damage. This was an act of war. Their response on the 27th Feb was to our initiation of hostilities a day before irrespective of the semantics we indulge in. A response was in order.

Yet , How did we respond to it? We did nothing. I don't want to delve into the Wing Commander Abhinandan episode much except to say that such events are always calculated into the matrix of retaliation or should if we decided to escalate, unless our political masters in their wisdom decided that post our Balakote strikes our defence Forces will undertake purely defensive manouvres and no offensive manoeuvres will be undertaken. In which case, the Wing Co Abhinandan episode is a very convenient fig leaf for the GoI.

It's been my contention all along that this government is trying to win the perception battle in a war of attrition by launching spectacular strikes and claiming credit for it both for the sake of effect and for public consumption. It's also my contention that till the Feb 14 th Pulwama attacks we had no comprehensive plan or doctrine to tackle Pak sponsored terrorism at its roots in Pakistan merely ad hoc measures across the border . I wonder if we have anything since. I won't be surprised if we don't and things continue as they did in the past till another "Pulwama" Or "Bombay ".

However , We did shed our pussilanimity for once. But not completely.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I hope that "operations are ongoing" part holds otherwise not engaging after Su30 was fired upon in Indian territory was not logical.

Do you know at times it is wiser to hold on to see what tactics your enemies are employing to counter them later. We now have exact signature of the radar of F-16s being flown by PAF and also of the AMRAAMs used by them. A missile supplier, especially Americans never repeat the frequency of the seeker on different batches of missiles they produce. It is specific to a a batch to be supplied to a customer. We now have it and we will now put it in the threat library of each of our fighters. We had known that PAF is planning a counter strike right from 22nd Feb. I hope you read my fictitious account of "Anatomy of an Air Strike". It is not exactly fictitious. We wanted to use this PAF strike on our military targets to show to world and justify our escalation. But here one of our very talented guys made an absolute charlie of himself. I can expect such things from a Flying Officer but not from a Wg. Cdr. who is tasked to train and be role model to such youngsters.

 

[screambowl]

Pakistan keeps airspace closed over fears of India attack
Subscribe to read | Financial Times

 

[_Anonymous_]

If India fails in it's objective of cornering Masood Azhar and giving disproportionate and a bl**dy response to Pakistan then it will be first conventional and diplomatic dent on Indian image. Now India cannot step back.

I guess time will answer your question. I already have.