Indian AESA Radar Developments

[marich01]

Does this go here? if not please move to the appropriate thread
Electro-Optic/Infra Red Sensor by DRDO
https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/1583687424865341442/photo/1

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583687424865341442

 

[marich01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584486580236218368

 

[Gautam]

A better photo of the LR-MFR:

Assuming the dimensions are in mm. The antenna area is ~58 sq. meters. Rough estimates, somebody actually do the math please. Some more estimates:

The antenna area of the upgraded UTTAM Mk-1 AESA with GaAs TRMs is ~0.7 sq. meters. Again, somebody please do the math. I am too lazy right now. LRDE managed to pack in 992 X-band TRMs on to this 0.7 sq. meters.

Extrapolating this to the LR-MFR we have a massive 82,200+ TRMs.
Power consumption of this thing would easily be in MWe range. Performance would be in range of some of the best early warning BMD/Space Situational Awareness radar territory. Between the Green Pine/Swordfish radar, ISRO's MOTR/M-MOTR, LRTR etc. we have some great land-based BMD radars in service. But we never had such powerful radars at sea. Well now we do.

INS Anvesh (A41) is currently testing this radar at sea. That ship has 3 main gen. sets producing 4.32 MWe each & an auxiliary gen. set that can generate 1.35 MWe. So, the ship can generate a maximum of 14.31 MWe. I imagine a lion's share of that is consumed by the radar. You can see why the Navy is so intent on getting electric propulsion for their future ships.

Of course, the LR-MFR can be a S-band radar & not a X-band radar. S-band would be more suited for long-range applications anyway. In that case we may end up with a very different TRMs count.

 

[South block]

A better photo of the LR-MFR:
View attachment 25064
Assuming the dimensions are in mm. The antenna area is ~58 sq. meters. Rough estimates, somebody actually do the math please. Some more estimates:
View attachment 25065
The antenna area of the upgraded UTTAM Mk-1 AESA with GaAs TRMs is ~0.7 sq. meters. Again, somebody please do the math. I am too lazy right now. LRDE managed to pack in 992 X-band TRMs on to this 0.7 sq. meters.
View attachment 25067

Extrapolating this to the LR-MFR we have a massive 82,200+ TRMs.
Power consumption of this thing would easily be in MWe range. Performance would be in range of some of the best early warning BMD/Space Situational Awareness radar territory. Between the Green Pine/Swordfish radar, ISRO's MOTR/M-MOTR, LRTR etc. we have some great land-based BMD radars in service. But we never had such powerful radars at sea. Well now we do.

INS Anvesh (A41) is currently testing this radar at sea. That ship has 3 main gen. sets producing 4.32 MWe each & an auxiliary gen. set that can generate 1.35 MWe. So, the ship can generate a maximum of 14.31 MWe. I imagine a lion's share of that is consumed by the radar. You can see why the Navy is so intent on getting electric propulsion for their future ships.

Of course, the LR-MFR can be a S-band radar & not a X-band radar. S-band would be more suited for long-range applications anyway. In that case we may end up with a very different TRMs count.

Ok i will calculate it for u


First we need to calculate the lamda value for the Uttam radar which according to this

has around 912 TRM on a antenna area of 0.7 mt²


If we calculate for 0.7 mt² antenna area with 912 TRM count....the lamda value will turn out to be around 5.54 cm which is not even in X band ( 3.75 cm - 2.5 cm ) but C band ( 3.75 cm - 7.5 cm )


0.7 is the diameter & not the area...i think u made a mistake here but even then there's a problem

Since we know it's an X band for sure & if we take 0.7 mt as a diameter & do the calculation again...the lamda value than turn out to be around 4.1 cm which is still not in X band lol


now if we take the antenna diameter to be around 0.65 mt ....lamada value with same TRM packaging ( 912 TRM ) will turn out to be around 3.81 cm , still outside X band




So in order to calculate the hypothetical number of TRM that can be packed on LR- MFR ( with density & same TRM count as that of Uttam )....we need to first Know the true area & diameter of Uttam antenna which I do not think is 0.7 mt² & 0.7 mt respectively .


In order for Uttam to be within X band with 912 TRM count , antenna area need to be below 0.31 mt² not 0.7 mt² and diameter need to be below 63.89 cm.

So what is the diameter & area of Uttam antenna ? well we can guess


Let's take a safe lamda value of 3.6 cm for Uttam.....than antenna diameter turn out to be around 0.61 mt & area 0.29 mt² ( Note : lamda value for RBE 2 AESA is around 3.36 cm and that of F 35 radar is around 3 cm )



Now if we calculate the LR-MFR TRM count with same TRM & packaging as that of uttam
.....for a 58 mt² area with 5.54 cm lamda value.... hypothetical TRM fill factor turn out to be around 76,000 and for lamda value of 4.1 cm it turn out to be around 138,000

and if we calculate using my estimate of 3.6 cm lamda value....than TRM count will be around 180,000 TRM



Now these are hypothetical values as we do not know true antenna size of Uttam AESA & values will differ significantly.
Since u mentioned that LR - MFR could be an S band Radar , but even than for such a large antenna size TRM count will be huge.

 

[South block]

@Gautam

Found this from here

https://twitter.com/x/status/1476024004066508801

Now it's say mid point at antenna surface
X = 542.339 mm ?

is it a diameter i am confused ? ( Correct me if i am wrong )

If it is a diameter of antenna than well Uttam dimension are comparable to RBE 2 AESA.... & This change everything

For a 0.55 Mt diameter & antenna area of 0.23 Mt² , the lamda value with 912 TRM will turn out be around 3.22 cm well within X band.


now if the same packaging density is applied for LR- MFR with a lamda value of 3.22 & antenna surface area of 58 mt²



Hypothetical TRM fill factor will turn out to be around 2,24,000 TRM in X band which is insane

 

[Gautam]

Sorry for the delayed response.

If we calculate for 0.7 mt² antenna area with 912 TRM count....the lamda value will turn out to be around 5.54 cm which is not even in X band ( 3.75 cm - 2.5 cm ) but C band ( 3.75 cm - 7.5 cm )

Wait how did you calculate this?

Wavelength (Lambda)= C/f.

What did you assume the operating frequency was? Also, unlike Pulse doppler radars, AESA radars tend to be able to operate on multiple frequencies. So, the value of operating wavelength will not be static. But they generally vary within the same wave band.

In terms of military usage C band radars are used for short range targeting. The Swathi WLR is a C-band radar for example.

C-band is not ideal for the applications the LR-MFR is intended to perform.

0.7 is the diameter & not the area...i think u made a mistake here but even then there's a problem

I am pretty sure I was calculating area. My calculation may be wrong, but its not diameter. The radiating element of the UTTAM radar is not round so how would I calculate a diameter?

So in order to calculate the hypothetical number of TRM that can be packed on LR- MFR ( with density & same TRM count as that of Uttam )....we need to first Know the true area & diameter of Uttam antenna which I do not think is 0.7 mt² & 0.7 mt respectively .

Fine, I'll calculate it on NX. Hold on.......

There.....

Surface Area of UTTAM= 0.3839 sq meter.

Surface area of each LR-MFR panel= 64 sq meter.

My guess of surface area was wrong on both counts. I over-estimated the surface area of UTTAM AESA's & under-estimated surface area of each LR-MFR panel.

So, by simple unitary extrapolation:

0.3839 sq meter = 912 TRMs (Is it 912 or 992?)
1 sq meter = 912/0.3839 = ~2376 TRMs
64 sq meter = 1,52,064 TRMs

For a 2-panel system we have 3,04,128 TRMs.

By any estimate, the LR-MFR is a significant upgrade from the MF-STAR.

 

[South block]

@Gautam

What did you assume the operating frequency was? Also, unlike Pulse doppler radars, AESA radars tend to be able to operate on multiple frequencies. So, the value of operating wavelength will not be static. But they generally vary within the same wave band.

Uttam operate in X band ( 8.0 to 12 GHz )
& Wavelength at this frequency is from 3.75 to 2.5 cm.


Now antenna size need to be proportional to the wavelength ( lamda ) it's operating in...so between 3.75 & 2.5 cm in case of X band

If we know the area of Radar antenna & TR count we can easily calculate the lamda value.
Now if Uttam has 0.7 mt² area with such 912 TRM count than lamda value is around
5.54 cm which is is C band.

In terms of military usage C band radars are used for short range targeting. The Swathi WLR is a C-band radar for example.

Yes nothing wrong with it , only problem will be low TRM count , low resolution, low bandwidth, less gain , inferior LPI characteristics , higher susceptibility to jamming etc.
Advantages will be low power loads & greater range.

C-band is not ideal for the applications the LR-MFR is intended to perform.

True

I am pretty sure I was calculating area. My calculation may be wrong, but its not diameter. The radiating element of the UTTAM radar is not round so how would I calculate a diameter?

With area of 0.7 mt²....... antenna diameter will turn out be above 0.9 mt which is same as that of Su 30, doesn't matter if it's round or not.
I think people are confusing radome area with that of antenna.

Fine, I'll calculate it on NX. Hold on.......

There.....

Surface Area of UTTAM= 0.3839 sq meter.

true diameter of uttam antenna is mentioned here

It's 0.54 mt so surface area wont be the same + TRM fill factor is never 100 %...it's around 60 % by my estimation for Uttam


Now the above diagram mentions mid point at antenna surface
X = 542.339 mm

now this is the true diameter of uttam antenna... since uttam is not a perfect Circle so to be safe i took 0.55 mt as a diameter and than calculated the lamda value which turn out to be around 3.22 cm... actual value would probably between 3.2 & 3.3 cm which is quite good actually ( i was surprised when i calculated it ).

But if area is 0.3839 sq mt as u calculated than lamda value would be around 4.1 cm which is in C band

Is it 912 or 992 ?

There are 30 plank units comprising of
24 Numbers of 8 QTRM Plank unit & 6 Numbers of 6 QTRM plank unit with total of 228 QTRM units.

228 x 4 = 912 TRM modules

Surface area of each LR-MFR panel= 64 sq meter.

if antenna area of LR - MFR is 64 sq mt.
and it's working in same band as Uttam with same packaging density with lamda value of 3.2 cm.... actual TRM count would be around 250,000 in one panel with two... Total would be around 500,000 TRM

Now if this radar is operating in lower band like S band.....TRM count will be less but won't affect the performance

 

[Sathya]

So if u we make Uttam + aesa for SuSu 30 mki, how much will be the TRM count?

 

[South block]

So if u we make Uttam + aesa for SuSu 30 mki, how much will be the TRM count?

With antenna diameter of 0.96 mt ( same as N011M Bars antenna )...around 2,800 TRM

 

[Sathya]

With antenna diameter of 0.96 mt ( same as N011M Bars antenna )...around 2,800 TRM

Picdel somewhere said, Thales could make 4000 TRM radar for Su30, however power constraints would prohibit to 2000 TRMs.

Seems like We need engine upgrade at least for the Power required for electronic s

 

[South block]

Picdel somewhere said, Thales could make 4000 TRM radar for Su30, however power constraints would prohibit to 2000 TRMs

Yes it is possible...maximum TRM count possible for Su 30 radar antenna is around 4,600 TRM in X band at 100 % fill factor which is impossible by the way....even 4000 TRM will require massive power loads so he is right.

 

[Rajput Lion]

4000 would be overkill, lol. 2400/2500 TRM count backed by GaN tech should be our target for MKI.

 

[Sathya]

4000 would be overkill, lol. 2400/2500 TRM count backed by GaN tech should be our target for MKI.

Should be done faster.. Not 10 years later.

Su30 should get back it's Mini Awacs status.

U know any info about Chinese Su copies radar TRM & power status?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Should be done faster.. Not 10 years later.

Absolutely. That's the plan. 2026 Uttam variant for MKI with GaA tech and after 2030 improve the radar with GaN tech. If we see a breakthrough in GaN tech(we're developing this for AMCA) earlier, then even the first Uttam radar variant for MKI MLU could be GaN based.

Su30 should get back it's Mini Awacs status.

The updated BARS is still very powerful. But yes SU30MKI with 2000+ TRM GaA/GaN AESA radar would be game-changer for us.

U know any info about Chinese Su copies radar TRM & power status?

So far based on what's available in internet:

J10: 1200 TRM

J16: 1760 TRM

J20: 1856 TRM.


F'n Chinese have leap-frogged everyone in radar tech. Here is a pictorial description of their latest AtA fighter radar tech:

 

[South block]

Absolutely. That's the plan. 2026 Uttam variant for MKI with GaA tech and after 2030 improve the radar with GaN tech. If we see a breakthrough in GaN tech(we're developing this for AMCA) earlier, then even the first Uttam radar variant for MKI MLU could be GaN based.

The updated BARS is still very powerful. But yes SU30MKI with 2000+ TRM GaA/GaN AESA radar would be game-changer for us.
View attachment 25114


So far based on what's available in internet:

J10: 1200 TRM

J16: 1760 TRM

J20: 1856 TRM.


F'n Chinese have leap-frogged everyone in radar tech. Here is a pictorial description of their latest AtA fighter radar tech:

View attachment 25112

Chinese are all Propaganda , they haven't even leap-frogged Russians yet , even in radars....they can claim whatever though.

 

[Sathya]

Absolutely. That's the plan. 2026 Uttam variant for MKI with GaA tech and after 2030 improve the radar with GaN tech. If we see a breakthrough in GaN tech(we're developing this for AMCA) earlier, then even the first Uttam radar variant for MKI MLU could be GaN based.

The updated BARS is still very powerful. But yes SU30MKI with 2000+ TRM GaA/GaN AESA radar would be game-changer for us.
View attachment 25114


So far based on what's available in internet:

J10: 1200 TRM

J16: 1760 TRM

J20: 1856 TRM.


F'n Chinese have leap-frogged everyone in radar tech. Here is a pictorial description of their latest AtA fighter radar tech:

View attachment 25112

So if J16 has 1760 TRM, can we expect us to have > 2000 TRM in our Su 3o ?

 

[Fatalis]

A better photo of the LR-MFR:

The LR-MFR is flat as compared to MF-STAR which is bulbous. Any reason why? What advantages one have over the other?

Also, is there any similarity between LR-MFR and DRDO's HPR?

We know as of now LR-MFR is for IN and HPR is for IAF then why IAF is not going for this much sophisticated radar?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

So if J16 has 1760 TRM, can we expect us to have > 2000 TRM in our Su 3o ?

We have attained interleaving modes operations in baseline Uttam aesa only.

Expect great things from whatever goes onto Su30MKI.

 

[Parthu]

The LR-MFR is flat as compared to MF-STAR which is bulbous. Any reason why? What advantages one have over the other?

Both radars (and all other Phased Arrays in the world) are flat as far as the array is concerned.

This is the actual MFSTAR array:

What is 'bulbous' on the MFSTARs is just the radome. The only purpose that serves is to protect the array from damage, and manage to not interfere with the transceivers' business while doing so.

I'm not a 100% on this, but I have reason to believe the shape of radome has a lot to do with wind resistance. On ships, radars that are mounted high up on masts tend to be rounded somewhat (SAMPSON, EMPAR are examples) whereas those mounted lower (or inside superstructures) tend to be more flat (like AEGIS SPY-series). I wonder if its just to create lesser wind resistance up top to increase ship's motive efficiency - though in case of SAMPSON or EMPAR its also due to them being a single, rotating array rather than 4 x fixed arrays like MFSTAR.

View attachment 25189

Also, is there any similarity between LR-MFR and DRDO's HPR?

We know as of now LR-MFR is for IN and HPR is for IAF then why IAF is not going for this much sophisticated radar?

I have already posited on social media that LRMFR and HPR are basically the same radar, just different applications and housing structures.

If LRMFR is like an AEGIS radar, then the HPR is like AEGIS Ashore.

HPR:

 

[South block]

So if J16 has 1760 TRM, can we expect us to have > 2000 TRM in our Su 3o ?

Yes With current TRM count on Uttam radar ( 736 TRM ) ...if u scale it up for SU 30 with same packaging density....TRM count will be around 2246.
Better than J 16 numbers ....which also show that our packaging technology is much more advance than chinese.