hmm, its under two categories. Dalaals are getting paid in this day and age. The good part is its under IDDM, so kalyani offering will have a chance.It's also under make(indian) category it means any local company can tie up with foreign firm to license produce their system.
Any way this RFI has been tailor made to import ATHOS by dalal lobby.
As Army puts in request for towed artillery guns, Israeli ATHOS is back in race for mega deal
In its request, Army specifies weight of gun system should preferably be less than 15 tons. This brings Israeli firm Elbit in reckoning as indigenous ATAGs are well over 18 tons.theprint.in
ATHOS file was completely closed but one reckon the reach and efforts of dalal lobby, after all its a rot 60+ yrs.
That's the new goal. The IA originally wanted 15T, but ATAGS climbed to 18. IIRC, it was originally 20T. Now the option is to switch to hydraulics and bring in more efficiencies elsewhere to bring down weight, or switch to titanium and reduce weight to 12T, but comes at a price and is difficult to maintain. The IA seems to be fine with a 16T steel ATAGS.
ATAGS needs to go through a LCA Mk1 to Mk1A transition. So the IA will have to buy 150 guns while the transition happens. This is what I meant by 4-5 years.
All I can say is it was extremely dumb of DRDO to have forced the cancellation of ATHOS. At first they managed to convert the 1580 deal to 400 by cutting out license production, which was fine, everybody in India except OFB were on the same page. Then they made the retarded move to cut down 400 to 0. Now the idiots have to compete with ATHOS. Even though the ATAGS is a significantly superior gun, the ATHOS meets all of the IA's requirements, so it's still gonna be an uphill struggle for the ATAGS. Now, the only thing they are almost guaranteed of is the 150 LSP order instead of bagging all 1600. The irony is if ATHOS wins the tender, then they could end up with 1200-1600 guns and DRDO could end up with a few hundred, like Arjun.
ATHOS weighs 13T.
Weight isn't the issue.
Cost is. 4 crore cheaper than Dhanush 45 and 12 crore cheaper than ATAGS per unit.
That's huge.
The cost of ATAGS is pegged at Rs.22 crore by every other portal because that cost is for the limited series production of 150 units, if this order grows 10 times, naturally the cost will come down, not to mention the ATAGS being superior to Athos 2052 in every parameter imaginable.
K9 Vajra was also not meant for high altitude deployment. It was acquired for desert deployments. But then the conflict at LAC made army deploy K9 vajra and it worked fine with minor modifications, high altitude trials are happening later after deployments . There after government ordered 400 more if I am correct with the numbers.
So whether it's ATAGS or ATHOS, if need arises both can be acquired.
So whether it's ATAGS or ATHOS, if need arises both can be acquired.
K9 still waiting for follow on orders.
Talked about 200/100/40 numbers but nothing signed yet.
The fact that ATAGS is being trialed by the DGQA is proof that the IA is fine tuning it . After all RFI's have gone out not RFPs. It's clear the IA is hedging.52 cal guns are on negative list i think, and with IDDM there is still very good chance of a Kalyani gun getting picked. If I am not wrong , there will be L1 & L2 bidders, so if army is not hellbent on Athos or nexter there is good chance either of atags & mag er guns will get order. DRDO is very bullish on atags prospect, back to back 48km firing done & the gun salute at Red Fort, direct praise from govt definitely upped their morale on this.
Going to be another set of discussion when the MGS rfi comes
As far as the electric vs hydraulic drives controversy goes the last time resident storyteller was on his yarn spinning session he wasn't even aware of the fact that electric drives are heavier than hydraulic ones & the same issues raised now were raised then .
Proof / source of the controversy - dude / bro trust us ?
What does the lethal DRDO ATAGS 155 mm artillery gun bring to the battlefield?
Artillery weapon systems are among the many projects that have been produced as a result of the national push to
frontierindia.com
Besides has anyone checked the RFI for the type of drives specified? If weight is such a limitation, then how come ATHOS is permitted to have hydraulic drives & not electric drives assuming that's what the RFI says ( I haven't been thru it) .
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For the additional capability, ATAGS cost is fine.
The bigger issue is the ATAGS is not an army program, DRDO started it on a whim, and that's why they over-spec'd it.
*yawn*
Electric drive "motor" is heavier than hydraulic drive "motor". What makes hydraulic drive heavier in certain scenarios is the large amounts of fluid it needs. It's less of a problem in artillery guns and more of a problem in aircraft, where the fluid has to travel large distances within the aircraft.
What makes electric drive heavier on artillery guns is not the drive itself, but the power system and battery that runs it.
The problem was never the motor itself.
Children need to learn the nuances or go home.
Electric drive "motor" is heavier than hydraulic drive "motor". What makes hydraulic drive heavier in certain scenarios is the large amounts of fluid it needs. It's less of a problem in artillery guns and more of a problem in aircraft, where the fluid has to travel large distances within the aircraft.
What makes electric drive heavier on artillery guns is not the drive itself, but the power system and battery that runs it.
The problem was never the motor itself.
Children need to learn the nuances or go home.
Reposting this for ex DRDO engineer presumably ex ADE for the difference between drives & motors & why these electric drives were & are heavier than hydraulic ones .
Post in thread 'Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates' Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates
Moreover the ATAGS comes with a 25 litre chamber . The Bharat -52 with a 21 litre chamber . Seems to me that just like the IAF , the IA desires the sun & moon at the cheapest prices on time & within set parameters which organisations like the ADE & by extension resident storyteller have always been known to deliver upon , if not in material form then certainly as far as stories or excuses go .
Post in thread 'Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates' Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates
Moreover the ATAGS comes with a 25 litre chamber . The Bharat -52 with a 21 litre chamber . Seems to me that just like the IAF , the IA desires the sun & moon at the cheapest prices on time & within set parameters which organisations like the ADE & by extension resident storyteller have always been known to deliver upon , if not in material form then certainly as far as stories or excuses go .
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What was the need for allowing foreign guns to participate in this tender under make(indian) criteria it should have been only opened under IDDM criteria.
There are multiple indigenous 52 cal guns are available apart from ATAGS there was no need of even considering foreign guns.
Even if ATAGS & bharat 52 participate in this tender still they will lose against foreign gun due to cost factor.
There are multiple indigenous 52 cal guns are available apart from ATAGS there was no need of even considering foreign guns.
Even if ATAGS & bharat 52 participate in this tender still they will lose against foreign gun due to cost factor.
Because the MoD cannot discriminate between those with experience and those just starting off, especially when the experience of both groups in terms of delivery is zero right now. Plus foreign companies will bring in new technologies and capabilities, it's been over a decade since the last tender.
Buy is of higher grade than IDDM, which is why the indigenisation percentage is 60% versus 50% for IDDM.
The trials have been on since 2016 . If one includes the DGQA trials which's expected to go on up until 2024 at least, that's 8 yrs. Ideally after the ATAGS satisfied the PSQR this year, a preliminary order for 150 guns ought to have fast tracked with the remainder to follow post the certifications by DGQA & presumably the GSQR i.e by 2026 by which all the wrinkles in the design & production would've been ironed out.
However if the imports in this category were initially banned, only for an exception to have been made extending it by a year ( upto Dec 2023) , it can only mean there is a lobby whether in the IA or the MoD or perhaps higher up determined to see the Athos in. Now to what extent will it eat into the ATAGS orders needs to be seen.
The above development also answers the question as to why wasn't the DGQA trials which aren't related to performance not conducted simultaneously along with the other performance based trials on since 2016.
This excellent article here details the entire trial schedule with dates.
India’s Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS)
by Brig Arvind Dhananjayan (Retd). The 155mm Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), is the brainchild of the DRDO, with the Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) and Armament & Combat Engineering Systems (ACE), located in Pune, intimately involved in its development.
chanakyaforum.com
This is an attempted appraisal of the current situation.
alphadefense.in
ATAGS VS ATHOS : Understanding the rift from user and developers perspective - Everyone's in Dilemma | Alpha Defense
There is a fierce stand-off going on within India, i.e. on whether to procure Elbit's ATHOS 2052 or DRDO and TATA/Kalyani JV ATAGS.
alphadefense.in
Good to hear that.
WTF!!! Are you serious?
What kind of organization doesn't even consult thier customers requirements?
And Pvt. Org. Kalyani also didn't think about this? This is just undigestible...
If you didn’t know a secret about ATAGS, army figured out some component of ATAGS is of Chinese origin during the trails around 2 years ago. They kept the information lowkey out of the media and asked for a replacement. Not sure on its status now though. This was around the time when a faulty ammo ruined the gun.
It's exactly how an MIC is created without diluting the force's preparedness.
I told you already, ATAGS still isn't fit for use in combat. What's the point of buying something that doesn't work for the sole purpose of just blindly supporting the industry?
In order to support the industry, if something doesn't work very well, then you only need to buy enough to help push the R&D process. So the deal for 150 ATAGS will very likely go through as long as it fulfills even some of the most crucial QRs. But there's no need to buy 1600 prototypes, it will just make some shareholders richer, it doesn't help the company become more capable, and will make the IA considerably weaker at the same time. So 150 ATAGS, 40 LCA Mk1s, 124 Arjun Mk1 followed by 118 Arjun Mk1A, and so on. So, if ATAGS still doesn't meet QRs even after the first 150 are delivered, they will make an Mk1A and deliver another 150, in the meantime they will have to use the lessons learned to make an Mk2 or a whole new gun. Like Arjun Mk2, which is basically a new tank.
LCA, Arjun and ATAGS have suffered because in all three, DRDO created their own QRs instead of just giving the forces what they want. For example, IA wanted to cancel the Arjun in the early 90s and start a new tank program suitable for our terrain. But DRDO was desperate to make a NATO standard tank for showing off, a tank completely unsuitable for our operational environment. LCA was supposed to be a simple aircraft without FBW, but DRDO added 10 years to it by wanting to create their FBW. It was also supposed to have a simple radar that existed in the 80s, not the more modern stuff that went into M2000-5 and F-16 B50.
ATAGS is similarly over-spec'd with stuff the IA never asked for. For example, IA never asked for a 25 liter chamber or more range than 40-42Km. In the Himalayas, the range will increase to 50+Km anyway, it was more than enough. But with a bigger chamber, it increased weight, the same with the electric drive, all weight increasing measures, which resulted in an overweight gun. An overweight gun means a bigger, heavier truck, and that means it cannot use many bridges in the mountains. And if it cannot use bridges, it means it can't be taken to the battlefield.
The IA simply goes by common sense. The IA doesn't care who owns the IP as long as the technology is fully usable up to spec and is supported within India. 'Cause IP laws go to sh!t when war comes along. India has rules where we can ignore IP during national emergencies. The IP holder will get some royalty money. But civilians go by emotions, and the industry preys on that via the media.
And unlike Arjun and LCA, ATAGS isn't even an official program, it's just a hobby project DRDO took up in parallel to IA's towed gun tender. And then, a successful tender was cancelled in favour of a gun that's still years away from attaining credibility. ATAGS currently doesn't even meet DRDO's own internal SQRs, never mind the army's PSQR for an inferior gun which was created for the tender which ATHOS won. If that weight doesn't come down to usable levels, then it's going the Arjun way.