Indian Ballistic Missile Defence Programme - Updates and Discussions

[marich01]

HEMRL is currently busy making and qualifying many pyro igniters catridges etc for many applications, VLS, interstage, motor firing etc related use perhaps. Almost all the upcoming systems will have use of such. There were specific dev process initiated way back from 2022 or so.

 

[marich01]

PGAD P-197 bmd system which is in production currently , getting ready for system wise deployment and frequent trials obviously

 

[Fatalis]

PGAD P-197 bmd system which is in production currently , getting ready for system wise deployment and frequent trials obviously

View attachment 43286

P197? What could it be?

 

[marich01]

P197? What could it be?

probably AAD / Ashwin interceptor or likely AD-1. PDV is 394.

 

[marich01]

Used prior to loading the article in

 

[RationalGuy]

Anti-Hypersonic

https://twitter.com/x/status/1875794273146433876

Future Dog Feng Killer . BTW for hypersonic missile interception we need to have more capable satellites, not only for traditional BM launch detection but also for detection of HGV streaking across lower atmosphere (iirc US is currently developing such a system). Do we have any known satellites which can do this? Will a part of our 52 satellites being launched be capable of this? @randomradio @Parthu

 

[RationalGuy]

BTW resident experts @randomradio, @Parthu @Rajput Lion and others, we have seen how our supersonic and subsonic cruise missiles were able to defeat Pak AD. Of course our AD is superior but Pakistan and China possess a formidable arsenal of low flying cruise missiles such as Babur, YJ12 etc. How capable are our AD systems such as Barak 8, S400, Akash in terms of handling cruise missile threats especially multiple cruise missiles? I read somewhere VK Saraswat claimed our AAD can handle cruise missiles. In the next conflict Pakistan may take a leaf out of our play book and spam export YJ12 and Babur at Indian targets.

 

[Rajput Lion]

BTW resident experts @randomradio, @Parthu @Rajput Lion and others, we have seen how our supersonic and subsonic cruise missiles were able to defeat Pak AD. Of course our AD is superior but Pakistan and China possess a formidable arsenal of low flying cruise missiles such as Babur, YJ12 etc. How capable are our AD systems such as Barak 8, S400, Akash in terms of handling cruise missile threats especially multiple cruise missiles? I read somewhere VK Saraswat claimed our AAD can handle cruise missiles. In the next conflict Pakistan may take a leaf out of our play book and spam export YJ12 and Babur at Indian targets.

Forget about low flying subsonic cruise missiles, our IADS such as MRSAM can even intercept BrahMos. They'll become even more formidable with time. As China/Pak develop new tech, our IADS will also naturally evolve to thwart it. With QRSAM, VL-SRSAM, Akash-NG & PL-LRSAM, AD-AH & AD-AM, all coming up within few years from now and integrated through one common Command & Control, shall thwart(along with our existing systems) any type of threat thrown towards us.

As I have said previously numerous times that one area where the current gov. has done a stellar job is in expansion of our IADS. Soon this IADS will evolve into A2/AD. Mark it.

 

[randomradio]

BTW resident experts @randomradio, @Parthu @Rajput Lion and others, we have seen how our supersonic and subsonic cruise missiles were able to defeat Pak AD. Of course our AD is superior but Pakistan and China possess a formidable arsenal of low flying cruise missiles such as Babur, YJ12 etc. How capable are our AD systems such as Barak 8, S400, Akash in terms of handling cruise missile threats especially multiple cruise missiles? I read somewhere VK Saraswat claimed our AAD can handle cruise missiles. In the next conflict Pakistan may take a leaf out of our play book and spam export YJ12 and Babur at Indian targets.

The technology to defeat CMs exists. But what's necessary is deep pockets to buy the SAMs in the numbers we need.

Terminal SAMs are cheaper than CMs but more expensive than TBMs. But while TBMs are not easy to hide, CMs are hidden among cheap drones. So we need the ability to discern between target types and engage the most dangerous, which requires the use of expensive radars and sensors and airborne DEW to thin out the herd before they get to their targets.

 

[CATS @hunter]

BTW resident experts @randomradio, @Parthu @Rajput Lion and others, we have seen how our supersonic and subsonic cruise missiles were able to defeat Pak AD. Of course our AD is superior but Pakistan and China possess a formidable arsenal of low flying cruise missiles such as Babur, YJ12 etc. How capable are our AD systems such as Barak 8, S400, Akash in terms of handling cruise missile threats especially multiple cruise missiles? I read somewhere VK Saraswat claimed our AAD can handle cruise missiles. In the next conflict Pakistan may take a leaf out of our play book and spam export YJ12 and Babur at Indian targets.

subsonic missles are gonna be a thing of a past now, subsonic missles travels near to the speed of mach 1, the fastest subsonic cruise missile storm shadow travels at 0.8 mach, subsonic are easier to intertcept nowdays, due to slow speed it gives ample of time to detect it track and intercept it, due to modern radars and awacs you can identify the low flying cruise missles from clutters and mapping of the area, also due to thier long flight time the subsonic cruise missles have to constantly feed time, which gives Ew systems a sinificant time to jam the GPS and other guidance systems to Ew, we already seen that in ukraine and one scalp missle found intact with warhead in pakistan, even stealth missles like storm shadows have been brought down, babur class will be cannon fodder unless they plan to launch them in hundreds at a time, meanwhile the yj 12 gonna be a challenge as they are fast, none the less it wont be that much of a problem cause MRSAM holds the capacity to intercept high speed cruise missles, and we are all ready making STAR to train against high speed cruise missiles,

 

[marich01]

Low flying cruise missiles are likely tackled by Igla like vshorads , which is why the services are buying a good stock of these. That is not to mean you would wait till its near 4-5km of the target and then shoot it down. The man portable option is such that it would serve as distributed countermeasure over a vast area node basis. each sector would have layered AD options. It is the reason some drones were downed with man portable vshorads besides using the AD guns. Threat classification is necessary element of the whole engagement process which identifies which solution to use and with what priority.

BMD assets are unlikely to engage general AD targets.

 

[randomradio]

Low flying cruise missiles are likely tackled by Igla like vshorads , which is why the services are buying a good stock of these. That is not to mean you would wait till its near 4-5km of the target and then shoot it down. The man portable option is such that it would serve as distributed countermeasure over a vast area node basis. each sector would have layered AD options. It is the reason some drones were downed with man portable vshorads besides using the AD guns. Threat classification is necessary element of the whole engagement process which identifies which solution to use and with what priority.

BMD assets are unlikely to engage general AD targets.

It's almost humanly impossible for MANPADS to shoot down low-flying CMs in any capacity. It's doing 700+ kmph. You won't hear it coming, and by the time it's over you, you look up and it's gone. So MANPADS are meant for slow-moving targets like small drones and helicopters.

Only vehicles with staring arrays can, with some luck. In reality, you need low-level radars on the ground and airborne look-down radars.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's almost humanly impossible for MANPADS to shoot down low-flying CMs in any capacity. It's doing 700+ kmph. You won't hear it coming, and by the time it's over you, you look up and it's gone. So MANPADS are meant for slow-moving targets like small drones and helicopters.

Only vehicles with staring arrays can, with some luck. In reality, you need low-level radars on the ground and airborne look-down radars.

Fighters on CAP can also hunt for subsonic cruise missiles with Astra. On the ground level we're already acquiring LLTR Ashwini in numbers to deal with such threats.

 

[South block]

It's almost humanly impossible for MANPADS to shoot down low-flying CMs in any capacity. It's doing 700+ kmph. You won't hear it coming, and by the time it's over you, you look up and it's gone. So MANPADS are meant for slow-moving targets like small drones and helicopters.

Only vehicles with staring arrays can, with some luck. In reality, you need low-level radars on the ground and airborne look-down radars.

There are multiple videos from Russia- Ukraine war of Cruise missile being shot down by MANPADS.... They are fast only if they are flying directly over your head & your line of sight is compromised but even then they can be shot down in most cases.

 

[Speedster1]

It's almost humanly impossible for MANPADS to shoot down low-flying CMs in any capacity. It's doing 700+ kmph. You won't hear it coming, and by the time it's over you, you look up and it's gone. So MANPADS are meant for slow-moving targets like small drones and helicopters.

Disagree. Igla manpads (shoulder-fired at that) are used for last ditch missile defence on most IN surface ships to this day. If manpads work in the naval context, why wouldn't they work over land? What's needed is a stabilized launcher (like France's SIMBAD) with integrated eo/ir + cueing from onboard FCR to improve detection time and kill probability.

 

[TARGET]

There are multiple videos from Russia- Ukraine war of Cruise missile being shot down by MANPADS.... They are fast only if they are flying directly over your head & your line of sight is compromised but even then they can be shot down in most cases.

IMO, MANPADS can be used against cruise missiles if you are operating in plains or at sea. If you have a mountain range and a cruise missile is flying with a proper terrain-hugging path, you won't have time to see and lock in on it. I will say from Punjab to Gujarat, let's consider it as a plain, and we can use the MANPADS against cruise missiles, but above Punjab, you will find difficulties with MANPADS for cruise missiles due to the reaction time being less. You have to use SAM.

 

[CATS @hunter]

It's almost humanly impossible for MANPADS to shoot down low-flying CMs in any capacity. It's doing 700+ kmph. You won't hear it coming, and by the time it's over you, you look up and it's gone. So MANPADS are meant for slow-moving targets like small drones and helicopters.

Only vehicles with staring arrays can, with some luck. In reality, you need low-level radars on the ground and airborne look-down radars.

It's possible, Ukrainians have shot down missiles using manpads, it's largely depends upon the terrain, if you are in that there's still a chance you can intercept it, something over j&k it may not be possible to intercept it,

 

[Asterion Moloc]

IMO, MANPADS can be used against cruise missiles if you are operating in plains or at sea. If you have a mountain range and a cruise missile is flying with a proper terrain-hugging path, you won't have time to see and lock in on it. I will say from Punjab to Gujarat, let's consider it as a plain, and we can use the MANPADS against cruise missiles, but above Punjab, you will find difficulties with MANPADS for cruise missiles due to the reaction time being less. You have to use SAM.

It's possible, Ukrainians have shot down missiles using manpads, it's largely depends upon the terrain, if you are in that there's still a chance you can intercept it, something over j&k it may not be possible to intercept it,

Terrain matters as Ukraine-Russia example showed, but all the videos are of day time iirc, so maybe capable but not completely. What I think is can we have a ground based acoustic sensors across the border and even have them on top of Power Cable Towers etc. To give Early accoustic warning of low-flying cruise missile, drones or even jets, Helis etc, Is it even possible?

US stealth is defined in Acoustic spectrum also, especially for LO helis like the one used in OBL raid, where noise suppression was used in Blades design or something.

 

[RationalGuy]

Fighters on CAP can also hunt for subsonic cruise missiles with Astra. On the ground level we're already acquiring LLTR Ashwini in numbers to deal with such threats.

In my opinion we need to have at least one Netra Mk1 AWACS in air to ground scanning mode to detect low flying missiles and then we can engage detected missiles with Astra Mk1 on Tejas Mk1. Anyways Tejas Mk1 is not necessarily survivable infront of China or Pakistan so we can use a lot of Tejas Mk1 with Astra as another air borne layer of missile defence, guided by Netra Mk1 AWACS. 15-20 Tejas Mk1 with 5 Astra Mk1 each means we can ideally intercept upto 100 low flying cruise missiles, far more than what Pakistan likely possesses in the first place lol. This is on top of MRSAM, Akash, upcoming Akash NG and Barak 8 and upcoming Kusha.

 

[RationalGuy]

subsonic missles are gonna be a thing of a past now, subsonic missles travels near to the speed of mach 1, the fastest subsonic cruise missile storm shadow travels at 0.8 mach, subsonic are easier to intertcept nowdays, due to slow speed it gives ample of time to detect it track and intercept it, due to modern radars and awacs you can identify the low flying cruise missles from clutters and mapping of the area, also due to thier long flight time the subsonic cruise missles have to constantly feed time, which gives Ew systems a sinificant time to jam the GPS and other guidance systems to Ew, we already seen that in ukraine and one scalp missle found intact with warhead in pakistan, even stealth missles like storm shadows have been brought down, babur class will be cannon fodder unless they plan to launch them in hundreds at a time, meanwhile the yj 12 gonna be a challenge as they are fast, none the less it wont be that much of a problem cause MRSAM holds the capacity to intercept high speed cruise missles, and we are all ready making STAR to train against high speed cruise missiles,

Tbh im not sure if I agree. I think for saturation a combination of subsonic supersonic cruise missile as well as ballistic missiles and A2G weapons are needed. Supersonic cruise missiles are still very expensive, a stealthy subsonic cruise missile for saturation attacks on airbases is still useful. Anduril in USA is developing stealth subsonic cruise missile and even India is still pursuing subsonic LRLACM. We wouldn't have struggled so much for STFE Manik if we didn't see the use for subsonic cruise missiles.

Terrain matters as Ukraine-Russia example showed, but all the videos are of day time iirc, so maybe capable but not completely. What I think is can we have a ground based acoustic sensors across the border and even have them on top of Power Cable Towers etc. To give Early accoustic warning of low-flying cruise missile, drones or even jets, Helis etc, Is it even possible?

US stealth is defined in Acoustic spectrum also, especially for LO helis like the one used in OBL raid, where noise suppression was used in Blades design or something.

Indeed a US servicemember who claimed to have seen the LO Helis used in the raid fly over an airbase at dark said they sounded like big fans instead of the normal chop chop of standard helicopters. BTW acoustic steakth may also be even in the B2 bomber because someone who I know who worked on the aircraft said it flew over his office (as a tribute to the ppl there who worked on it) and the ppl on the office terrace couldn't even listen much of the engine noise of the plane when it flew over.