Indian Defense Industry General News and Updates

[Gautam]

Airbus shortlists four states for copter unit

By Rahul Singh, New Delhi
Jan 18, 2025, 06:38 AM IST

Airbus Helicopters is evaluating four Indian states for a production line of H125 helicopters with TASL, boosting the Make-in-India initiative.

The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year. (Rahul Singh/HT Photo)

Airbus Helicopters has shortlisted four locations in the country to set up a production line for H125 helicopters in partnership with Tata Adanced Systems Limited (TASL), the fourth such facility in the world and a shot in the arm for the government’s wide-ranging Make-in-India campaign, people in the industry said on Friday.

The final assessment of sites in Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka is underway and an announcement is expected soon on where the single-engine helicopter will be assembled as the two firms target to roll the first H125 out of an Indian facility next year, the people added on condition of anonymity.

The factors that will guide the decision include how attractive the location is to employees, its suitability for industrial activity, and the logistics ecosystem, the people said.

The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year, with production being ramped up as orders grow. Airbus Helicopters has projected a demand for 500 light helicopters of the H125 class in the country and south Asia during the next 20 years.

The partnership between Airbus Helicopters and TASL to assemble the H125 helicopters in the country was announced in January 2024 during talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Emmanuel Macron.

The 2.8-tonne H125 can carry up to six passengers, fly at a maximum altitude of 23,000 feet, has a range of 630km and a top speed of 250kmph. The roles it is suited for include commercial transport, law enforcement, emergency medical services, disaster management, offshore industry and firefighting.

These helicopters are currently produced only in France, the US and Brazil.

At the Indian FAL, TASL will handle major component assemblies, avionics and mission systems, flight controls, hydraulic circuits, fuel system and the engine; with support and guidance from Airbus Helicopters, including the training of Indian personnel in France.

The H125’s engine and gearbox will come from France, the main airframe from Germany, and the tail boom from Spain.

This will be the second FAL to be set up in India by Airbus. It is jointly executing a ₹21,935-crore project with TASL to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 56 C-295 aircraft to modernise its transport fleet. In September 2021, the defence ministry signed the contract with Airbus Defence and Space to strengthen self-reliance in the key sector. The European aircraft maker is delivering 16 planes in flyaway condition, while the rest will be assembled in India at a Tata facility in Gujarat’s Vadodara city.

Last October, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Spanish counterpart Pedro Sanchez jointly inaugurated the Tata Aircraft Complex in Vadodara for manufacturing the C-295 transport aircraft, a watershed in the country’s private sector that will produce a military plane for the first time.

Airbus has already delivered several C-295s to the IAF and the last of the 16 flyaway aircraft is expected to join the fleet by August 2025. The first made-in-India C-295 will roll out of the Vadodara facility in September 2026 and the remaining 39 by August 2031. The IAF inducted its first C-295 in September 2023.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...r-states-for-copter-unit-101737139024073.html

 

[Speedster1]

Airbus shortlists four states for copter unit

By Rahul Singh, New Delhi
Jan 18, 2025, 06:38 AM IST

Airbus Helicopters is evaluating four Indian states for a production line of H125 helicopters with TASL, boosting the Make-in-India initiative.
View attachment 39774
The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year. (Rahul Singh/HT Photo)

Airbus Helicopters has shortlisted four locations in the country to set up a production line for H125 helicopters in partnership with Tata Adanced Systems Limited (TASL), the fourth such facility in the world and a shot in the arm for the government’s wide-ranging Make-in-India campaign, people in the industry said on Friday.

The final assessment of sites in Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka is underway and an announcement is expected soon on where the single-engine helicopter will be assembled as the two firms target to roll the first H125 out of an Indian facility next year, the people added on condition of anonymity.

The factors that will guide the decision include how attractive the location is to employees, its suitability for industrial activity, and the logistics ecosystem, the people said.

The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year, with production being ramped up as orders grow. Airbus Helicopters has projected a demand for 500 light helicopters of the H125 class in the country and south Asia during the next 20 years.

The partnership between Airbus Helicopters and TASL to assemble the H125 helicopters in the country was announced in January 2024 during talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Emmanuel Macron.

The 2.8-tonne H125 can carry up to six passengers, fly at a maximum altitude of 23,000 feet, has a range of 630km and a top speed of 250kmph. The roles it is suited for include commercial transport, law enforcement, emergency medical services, disaster management, offshore industry and firefighting.

These helicopters are currently produced only in France, the US and Brazil.

At the Indian FAL, TASL will handle major component assemblies, avionics and mission systems, flight controls, hydraulic circuits, fuel system and the engine; with support and guidance from Airbus Helicopters, including the training of Indian personnel in France.

The H125’s engine and gearbox will come from France, the main airframe from Germany, and the tail boom from Spain.

This will be the second FAL to be set up in India by Airbus. It is jointly executing a ₹21,935-crore project with TASL to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 56 C-295 aircraft to modernise its transport fleet. In September 2021, the defence ministry signed the contract with Airbus Defence and Space to strengthen self-reliance in the key sector. The European aircraft maker is delivering 16 planes in flyaway condition, while the rest will be assembled in India at a Tata facility in Gujarat’s Vadodara city.

Last October, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Spanish counterpart Pedro Sanchez jointly inaugurated the Tata Aircraft Complex in Vadodara for manufacturing the C-295 transport aircraft, a watershed in the country’s private sector that will produce a military plane for the first time.

Airbus has already delivered several C-295s to the IAF and the last of the 16 flyaway aircraft is expected to join the fleet by August 2025. The first made-in-India C-295 will roll out of the Vadodara facility in September 2026 and the remaining 39 by August 2031. The IAF inducted its first C-295 in September 2023.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...r-states-for-copter-unit-101737139024073.html

Make no mistake. Airbus' ultimate goal is bagging military orders in India. The IA is already leasing civilian light helos with LUH facing vibration issues. They probably see a window of opportunity for H125.
Local production will bring down unit costs for their Caracal twin-engine medium helos as well. Apparently, the ICG wanted them.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Airbus shortlists four states for copter unit

By Rahul Singh, New Delhi
Jan 18, 2025, 06:38 AM IST

Airbus Helicopters is evaluating four Indian states for a production line of H125 helicopters with TASL, boosting the Make-in-India initiative.
View attachment 39774
The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year. (Rahul Singh/HT Photo)

Airbus Helicopters has shortlisted four locations in the country to set up a production line for H125 helicopters in partnership with Tata Adanced Systems Limited (TASL), the fourth such facility in the world and a shot in the arm for the government’s wide-ranging Make-in-India campaign, people in the industry said on Friday.

The final assessment of sites in Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka is underway and an announcement is expected soon on where the single-engine helicopter will be assembled as the two firms target to roll the first H125 out of an Indian facility next year, the people added on condition of anonymity.

The factors that will guide the decision include how attractive the location is to employees, its suitability for industrial activity, and the logistics ecosystem, the people said.

The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year, with production being ramped up as orders grow. Airbus Helicopters has projected a demand for 500 light helicopters of the H125 class in the country and south Asia during the next 20 years.

The partnership between Airbus Helicopters and TASL to assemble the H125 helicopters in the country was announced in January 2024 during talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Emmanuel Macron.

The 2.8-tonne H125 can carry up to six passengers, fly at a maximum altitude of 23,000 feet, has a range of 630km and a top speed of 250kmph. The roles it is suited for include commercial transport, law enforcement, emergency medical services, disaster management, offshore industry and firefighting.

These helicopters are currently produced only in France, the US and Brazil.

At the Indian FAL, TASL will handle major component assemblies, avionics and mission systems, flight controls, hydraulic circuits, fuel system and the engine; with support and guidance from Airbus Helicopters, including the training of Indian personnel in France.

The H125’s engine and gearbox will come from France, the main airframe from Germany, and the tail boom from Spain.

This will be the second FAL to be set up in India by Airbus. It is jointly executing a ₹21,935-crore project with TASL to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 56 C-295 aircraft to modernise its transport fleet. In September 2021, the defence ministry signed the contract with Airbus Defence and Space to strengthen self-reliance in the key sector. The European aircraft maker is delivering 16 planes in flyaway condition, while the rest will be assembled in India at a Tata facility in Gujarat’s Vadodara city.

Last October, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Spanish counterpart Pedro Sanchez jointly inaugurated the Tata Aircraft Complex in Vadodara for manufacturing the C-295 transport aircraft, a watershed in the country’s private sector that will produce a military plane for the first time.

Airbus has already delivered several C-295s to the IAF and the last of the 16 flyaway aircraft is expected to join the fleet by August 2025. The first made-in-India C-295 will roll out of the Vadodara facility in September 2026 and the remaining 39 by August 2031. The IAF inducted its first C-295 in September 2023.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...r-states-for-copter-unit-101737139024073.html

Make no mistake. Airbus' ultimate goal is bagging military orders in India. The IA is already leasing civilian light helos with LUH facing vibration issues. They probably see a window of opportunity for H125.
Local production will bring down unit costs for their Caracal twin-engine medium helos as well. Apparently, the ICG wanted them.

Why exactly is the GoI supporting moves to create competition to the ALH instead of pushing HAL to go all out in the civilian aerospace market to sell this product at least in India before moving into other markets ?

I'd go one step ahead & ask the reason HAL has been made the punching bag of the GoI thru other arms like the user -the IAF & the babooos - MoD in the recently concluded ACM Subroto Mukherjee lecturers organised by yet another GoI / MoD funded body - CAPS , instead of doing the right thing & restructure HAL followed by conferring it autonomy so that it's equipped to tackle the challenges in the market place like what we're witnessing instead of fighting with one hand tied behind the back & then being subjected to abuse their performance is sub par.

At this rate the GoI is only aiding the emaciation of the ONLY Aerospace production agency the country has thru sheer myopia , lack of foresight & general apathy.

 

[Speedster1]

Why exactly is the GoI supporting moves to create competition to the ALH instead of pushing HAL to go all out in the civilian aerospace market to sell this product at least in India before moving into other markets ?

As long as it's MII, GoI doesn't care. The military would like nothing better than a pvt-sector alternative to DPSUs in general and HAL in particular.
I don't blame them. HAL has dropped the ball on QC/maintenance and made asinine suggestions like making holes in helicopter hangar doors for ALH rotor blades to go through (this was before they developed those segmented blades and folding tail boom).
Problem is foriegn companies getting backdoor entry into projects reserved for local industry (via positive idigenizaton list), leaving no incentive for local R&D/IP creation.

 

[_Anonymous_]

As long as it's MII, GoI doesn't care. The military would like nothing better than a pvt-sector alternative to DPSUs in general and HAL in particular.
I don't blame them. HAL has dropped the ball on QC/maintenance and made asinine suggestions like making holes in helicopter hangar doors for ALH rotor blades to go through (this was before they developed those segmented blades and folding tail boom).
Problem is foriegn companies getting backdoor entry into projects reserved for local industry (via positive idigenizaton list), leaving no incentive for local R&D/IP creation.

It's quite plain the present GoI & MoD have no long term perspective planning irrespective their public posturing on the entire subject of defence which includes the INDIGENOUS defence mfg & R&D ecosystem.

We're being told by the Defence Secretary that local industry doesn't have the industrial depth of bandwidth to absorb all the orders resulting in funds being returned back to the MoD by the services.

This problem is most acute in the IA where before our very eyes foreign countries have imported & inducted items we've been testing it to eternity . Then comes the bombshell of the Strykers which is another story in itself.

In other sectors like drones we've been putting up with Chinese products or in any case sub systems in significant quantity in the final product being re badged as MII thru either ignorance or oversight - deliberate or otherwise.

Frankly I'm extremely disappointed by the Modi administration for their cavalier attitude towards defence exacerbated by a place holder of a Defence Minister .

It's just not a priority item with this government which is extremely surprising given the rapidly deteriorating neighborhood .

Either they've failed to grasp the salience of these developments or they're smug in the belief that we can counter them with the present forces in the condition they're in without major reforms or increased budgetary allocations or even taking a holistic view of things & doing course correction.

In fact the only MAJOR reforms they've undertaken is the theatre ization of the armed forces which to be honest is WiP for the rest of this decade & the next one & the Agniveer which in itself is fairly controversial.

All the other reforms like the DPP & everything flowing out of it apart from being WiP have been underwhelming due to the sheer contradictions in the policies itself subject to frequent changes.

Compared to the UPA era under St Anthony they still look good but then anyone would , for that's such a low bar to begin with .

 

[randomradio]

Airbus shortlists four states for copter unit

By Rahul Singh, New Delhi
Jan 18, 2025, 06:38 AM IST

Airbus Helicopters is evaluating four Indian states for a production line of H125 helicopters with TASL, boosting the Make-in-India initiative.
View attachment 39774
The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year. (Rahul Singh/HT Photo)

Airbus Helicopters has shortlisted four locations in the country to set up a production line for H125 helicopters in partnership with Tata Adanced Systems Limited (TASL), the fourth such facility in the world and a shot in the arm for the government’s wide-ranging Make-in-India campaign, people in the industry said on Friday.

The final assessment of sites in Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka is underway and an announcement is expected soon on where the single-engine helicopter will be assembled as the two firms target to roll the first H125 out of an Indian facility next year, the people added on condition of anonymity.

The factors that will guide the decision include how attractive the location is to employees, its suitability for industrial activity, and the logistics ecosystem, the people said.

The final assembly line (FAL) in India will be the first for a civil helicopter in the private sector and will initially produce 10 H125s a year, with production being ramped up as orders grow. Airbus Helicopters has projected a demand for 500 light helicopters of the H125 class in the country and south Asia during the next 20 years.

The partnership between Airbus Helicopters and TASL to assemble the H125 helicopters in the country was announced in January 2024 during talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Emmanuel Macron.

The 2.8-tonne H125 can carry up to six passengers, fly at a maximum altitude of 23,000 feet, has a range of 630km and a top speed of 250kmph. The roles it is suited for include commercial transport, law enforcement, emergency medical services, disaster management, offshore industry and firefighting.

These helicopters are currently produced only in France, the US and Brazil.

At the Indian FAL, TASL will handle major component assemblies, avionics and mission systems, flight controls, hydraulic circuits, fuel system and the engine; with support and guidance from Airbus Helicopters, including the training of Indian personnel in France.

The H125’s engine and gearbox will come from France, the main airframe from Germany, and the tail boom from Spain.

This will be the second FAL to be set up in India by Airbus. It is jointly executing a ₹21,935-crore project with TASL to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 56 C-295 aircraft to modernise its transport fleet. In September 2021, the defence ministry signed the contract with Airbus Defence and Space to strengthen self-reliance in the key sector. The European aircraft maker is delivering 16 planes in flyaway condition, while the rest will be assembled in India at a Tata facility in Gujarat’s Vadodara city.

Last October, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Spanish counterpart Pedro Sanchez jointly inaugurated the Tata Aircraft Complex in Vadodara for manufacturing the C-295 transport aircraft, a watershed in the country’s private sector that will produce a military plane for the first time.

Airbus has already delivered several C-295s to the IAF and the last of the 16 flyaway aircraft is expected to join the fleet by August 2025. The first made-in-India C-295 will roll out of the Vadodara facility in September 2026 and the remaining 39 by August 2031. The IAF inducted its first C-295 in September 2023.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...r-states-for-copter-unit-101737139024073.html

This is excellent news. We need more such FOEMs coming in with civil projects. The Holy Grail is jetliner assembly.

 

[randomradio]

Make no mistake. Airbus' ultimate goal is bagging military orders in India. The IA is already leasing civilian light helos with LUH facing vibration issues. They probably see a window of opportunity for H125.
Local production will bring down unit costs for their Caracal twin-engine medium helos as well. Apparently, the ICG wanted them.

No, the civilian market's gonna be bigger than the military's in time. Plus it's suitable for state and central police forces, railways, EMTs, fire services, forest protection, water/beach protection, power plant services etc, never mind civilian operators.

But definitely, with a few hundred to even a few thousand civilian versions chugging around, the forces can requisition a sizable number during war. So the more manufacturers that enter India, the better our aerospace industry. The US operates over 9000 commercial helicopters for example.

LUH is a joke in terms of maintenance and operating costs, and definitely needs a direct competitor for IA/IAF needs coming in from the private sector. In time, the LUH requirement will rise, and HAL's LUH won't be suitable beyond a certain number.

And if Airbus wants to re-enter the military market, they need to bring in the military version of H125 called Fennec. Then you can be worried, although it's a good thing. Anyway, their stuff in the medium class isn't good enough, Caracal can't beat Romeo in pretty much any category. So, in this area, you can be worried if Sikorsky steps in with an Indian partner. The main threat for the IMRH is for the marine version. HAL's really been struggling there.

Fun fact: The PLA operates a copy of the H125 called Z-11.

Overall, this govt has been the best we have had in history. They are able to attract FOEMs from the most important sectors for manufacturing when we barely are rich. China was a cheap producer for cheap products. But we need to be a cheap producer for high end products, like aviation. With labor laws suitable for manufacturing expensive products, the aerospace industry in India could become what shipbuilding has done for the Chinese.

 

[randomradio]

asinine suggestions like making holes in helicopter hangar doors for ALH rotor blades to go through

I'm sure that was said in jest. The standard Dhruv was rejected for marine role for many reasons, like payload and endurance, hence the development of UH-M. The marine version of IMRH is highly dependent on the success of UH-M.

 

[Speedster1]

Either they've failed to grasp the salience of these developments or they're smug in the belief that we can counter them with the present forces in the condition they're in without major reforms or increased budgetary allocations or even taking a holistic view of things & doing course correction.

Either they've failed to grasp the salience of these developments or they're smug in the belief that we can counter them with the present forces in the condition they're in without major reforms or increased budgetary allocations or even taking a holistic view of things & doing course correction.

The GoI is counting on diplomacy/international support and N-posturing to stave off conflict in the short term. But to think that the US will come to our aid - as in put boots on the ground along the LAC - is to delude ourselves.

The US is not going to decouple its economy from China. It'd take years and cost billions for them to re-shore everything, if it decided to. Lets not forget the Chinese hold billions in US debt. Heck, they might even hand Taiwan to them on a platter like Afghanistan or like the Brits did HK. Putin will not step out of line with China either. In any conflict, we'd be on our own.

In other sectors like drones we've been putting up with Chinese products or in any case sub systems in significant quantity in the final product being re badged as MII thru either ignorance or oversight - deliberate or otherwise.

Frankly, pvt industry needs time to indigenize and invest in R&D but without long-term orders and govt R&D funding they may not have the appetite to do so.

 

[Speedster1]

No, the civilian market's gonna be bigger than the military's in time. Plus it's suitable for state and central police forces, railways, EMTs, fire services, forest protection, water/beach protection, power plant services etc, never mind civilian operators.

We're not a first-world country.

But definitely, with a few hundred to even a few thousand civilian versions chugging around, the forces can requisition a sizable number during war. So the more manufacturers that enter India, the better our aerospace industry. The US operates over 9000 commercial helicopters for example.

Leasing civilian helos in peace-time is nothing to be proud of. Let's not forget that H125/Fennec won the RSH contest the first time around. After cancelling the deal at the behest of the Russians, the IA shot itself in the foot. Years later, it is now forced to leased civilian versions of the same helo for logistics and other roles. How ironic! Thankfully, the Ka-226 didn't get inducted or it would have been an even bigger disaster.

LUH is a joke in terms of maintenance and operating costs, and definitely needs a direct competitor for IA/IAF needs coming in from the private sector. In time, the LUH requirement will rise, and HAL's LUH won't be suitable beyond a certain number

Too early to compare opex as the LUH is only just entering service. The Army has a requirement for 225 units overall. Costs can be brought down over time. I'm all for competition but the IA cannot possibly get a little bit of everything by splitting requirements across two types. Standardization is the key.

And if Airbus wants to re-enter the military market, they need to bring in the military version of H125 called Fennec.

Doesn't matter. Apart from some mil-grade avionics, all that'd be different between the civil and mil versions is a coat of paint.

Caracal can't beat Romeo in pretty much any category. So, in this area, you can be worried if Sikorsky steps in with an Indian partner. The main threat for the IMRH is for the marine version. HAL's really been struggling there

IIRC, the ICG chose Caracal for CSAR. You can be sure that the IN would follow suit if a deal was signed. They have too few MH-60Rs right now to be used in both ASW and air assault roles. If IMRH is delayed, they might want a cheaper option to fall-back on. In any case, it was NH-90 that was in contention with MH-60R for the Indian contract, not Caracal.

 

[randomradio]

We're not a first-world country.

It has nothing to do with that. Our policies are not helicopter aviation friendly, that's all. And it's gonna change.

India to boost helicopter manufacturing, says aviation minister

Union Aviation Minister Kinjarapu Rammohan Naidu introduced the Bhartiya Vayuyan Vidheyak Bill, 2024, to enhance India's aviation sector. The Bill seeks to boost helicopter manufacturing and add seaplanes to air travel options. The minister highlighted India's untapped potential in the...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

The goal is to develop Tier 2 and 3 cities, and they require smaller cargo planes and helicopters acting out of the main hubs like metro cities.

Leasing civilian helos in peace-time is nothing to be proud of. Let's not forget that H125/Fennec won the RSH contest the first time around. After cancelling the deal at the behest of the Russians, the IA shot itself in the foot. Years later, it is now forced to leased civilian versions of the same helo for logistics and other roles. How ironic! Thankfully, the Ka-226 didn't get inducted or it would have been an even bigger disaster.

Requisitioning civilian hardware during war is a norm for everyone, even the West.

Ka-226T was amazing.

Too early to compare opex as the LUH is only just entering service. The Army has a requirement for 225 units overall. Costs can be brought down over time. I'm all for competition but the IA cannot possibly get a little bit of everything by splitting requirements across two types. Standardization is the key.

Nope, it's really, really bad. And it's only going to get worse. LUH isn't a new design, it's basically an iterative development of the ALH, so it uses ALH maintenance processes, which is a medium helicopter. It means a Cheetah airman will have to spend 10 times more time servicing LUH than he did with Cheetah. We are walking backwards here. Ka-226T does not have this issue, neither does Fennec. They were both designed from the ground-up to be light helicopters.

Standardization is not necessary beyond a certain number. Once you have 90-100 aircraft, getting 100 more of the same won't save money, you can go for a new one. It's important only in Western countries where labor costs are very high and access to trained manpower quite limited. We won't get to that point for another 50 years.

Doesn't matter. Apart from some mil-grade avionics, all that'd be different between the civil and mil versions is a coat of paint.

Mil helicopters typically have stronger landing gears and the engine is armored. The airframe needs to be able to carry some avionics too. In many cases, aluminum is replaced with titanium or carbon composites. It also requires more redundancies for avionics and flight controls, although not always.

Then, in India's case, there's all that terrain-specific modifications.

IIRC, the ICG chose Caracal for CSAR. You can be sure that the IN would follow suit if a deal was signed. They have too few MH-60Rs right now to be used in both ASW and air assault roles. If IMRH is delayed, they might want a cheaper option to fall-back on. In any case, it was NH-90 that was in contention with MH-60R for the Indian contract, not Caracal.

I know. Caracal competed with NH90 and S-70 in IMRH a decade ago, it lost to both. Wasn't even shortlisted. The Norwegians chose the NH90 over the S-92, deeply regretted it, canceled the contract, and bought Romeos too. So neither are a threat to the Romeo.

In any case, there's a plan to roughly double the Romeo order. So if Sikorsky decides to build in India, they may attempt to steal the entire DBMRH requirement. We have a pretty big one coming up with new carriers and LHDs after all. Not to mention, the civilian market. They are offering the S-92 for the VVIP contract too. We already produce the S-92 cabins in India. So the same can be expanded for the MH-60.

It's possible for Sikorsky to compete for IA and IAF's requirements too, 'cause we can't simply give up real capabilities in the name of indigenization. A split order is possible here too. Especially as numbers start crossing 400 alongside a larger budget. At a squadron per division, the army alone will need 1000 helicopters in this class.

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1881269099965407251

https://twitter.com/x/status/1881269651688264118

 

[_Anonymous_]

The GoI is counting on diplomacy/international support and N-posturing to stave off conflict in the short term. But to think that the US will come to our aid - as in put boots on the ground along the LAC - is to delude ourselves.

The US is not going to decouple its economy from China. It'd take years and cost billions for them to re-shore everything, if it decided to. Lets not forget the Chinese hold billions in US debt. Heck, they might even hand Taiwan to them on a platter like Afghanistan or like the Brits did HK. Putin will not step out of line with China either. In any conflict, we'd be on our own.

That's not what I meant @ GoI counting on diplomatic support & N posturing or even US boots on the LAC. I was referring MORE to the situation along the LoC & the IB we share with Paxtan & BD respectively where one is on the path to implosion & the other has just embarked on a similar path.

The latter is particularly worrisome as we've already a massive infiltration problem poised to get worse & tackling it could well ignite a civil war in India for the way they've integrated themselves well into the fabric & body politic across the nation.

Anyway that's a topic meant for discussion on another thread.

Frankly, pvt industry needs time to indigenize and invest in R&D but without long-term orders and govt R&D funding they may not have the appetite to do so.

Hptrs is one area HAL has done much better as compared to the FA arena. Now is the time for HAL to explore the civilian airspace market domestically as well as internationally.

HAL has also applied for & received partial EASA clearance which is mandatory for it to be able to pitch their product in the EU. No clue if they've approached the FAA in the US for similar clearance but that should be the next step. This is a pretty expensive exercise.

Which brings me to the point of reform of our DPSUs especially organizations like HAL which is the proverbial Jack of all trades & has no core competencies unless of course you , like the GoI , believe core competencies to be akin to the generic term - aerospace manufacturer & herein lies the nub .

I've written before on the reason HAL needs to be broken up into 4 entities which I won't elaborate on once again out here save to say if HAL had a unit dedicated for hptrs we'd have seen much more movement on the design & R&D segment along with JVs like the one they've signed with SAFRAN for TurboShafts ( TS) which'd have resulted in plenty of offerings to the civilian aerospace market domestically & later internationally.

Consider the H-125 for instance . It's in a way analogous to the Lama / Alouette series of hptrs France came out with way back in the late 1950s , 1960s & 1970s & a much improved modernised version of these models.

So much for state of the art. Airbus seems to have picked up a lesson or 2 from the various foreign automobile brands & their MO of operating in India where they bring the entire product line of outdated models or ones which have already ceased production in more developed markets out here & we go gaga over it .

Mind you this is by the same company who when the GoI asked them to set up a FAL for their civilian airliners , like they did for China , they turned around dropped their pants & bared their bottoms.

Now it could be tempting to see this as well as the C-295 mfg they've set up with TASL as perhaps exploratory steps before they get in for the real deal assuming they've such an agreement with the GoI but I highly doubt such a move.

So what we have is a situation where by shackling up your own domestic aerospace company you've failed to unlock value in it & to compound matters instead of doing the obvious you've now gone ahead & permitted competition to set up shop here which brings in an obsolete model , aims to corner the market share for your own product - the LUH which is still some way away from being fully realised & which Airbus will successfully do now that you've provided it the opening they desire & RST with no knowledge or commensurate experience in working in a professional set up is jumping up & down with glee like the juvenile he is celebrating our own doom , in behaviour on totally expected lines.

 

[Speedster1]

The goal is to develop Tier 2 and 3 cities, and they require smaller cargo planes and helicopters acting out of the main hubs like metro cities.

For the forseeable future, the military market would remain a prize target for any helo manufacturer.

Requisitioning civilian hardware during war is a norm for everyone, even the West.

We're talking about peace-time ops where the phase out of Chetak/Cheetah is impacting logistics, medevac and other ops. Reportedly, LUH has been having issues with cabin vibration and as luck would have it, the Dhruv fleet is also grounded as of now.

Ka-226T was amazing.

LUH isn't a new design, it's basically an iterative development of the ALH, so it uses ALH maintenance processes, which is a medium helicopter.

Neither is Ka-226. It's derived from a 1960s-era relic called Ka-26. The Russian armed forces fly only a handful. That should tell how amazing it really is. I'd say LUH is a single-engine 'un-bundling' of the ALH or even half an ALH in the same vein as the C-27J Spartan was to the C-130J (Not an apples to apples comparison but you'd get the drift). Maintenance processes inevitably evolve over time.

Once you have 90-100 aircraft, getting 100 more of the same won't save money, you can go for a new one.

Not even the US Army that has thousands of helos in its inventory does this. They've standardized on the Airbus Lakota after phasing out the old Kiowa Warriors.

They are offering the S-92 for the VVIP contract too. We already produce the S-92 cabins in India. So the same can be expanded for the MH-60.

The S-92 didn't meet specific SPG requirements (on-tarmac, close proximity pick-up for VIPs iirc) set out in the VVIP tender. However, following the bribery scandal, we know at least some of those requirements were diluted. Don't think the S-92 has replaced the venerable Seaking in the USMC VVIP fleet yet. Logically, IMRH should be the next VVIP helo of choice.

I'd personally prefer the tri-engine AW-101 for its greater safety margins but of course the bribery scandal has left a bad taste in the mouth. We don't know the fate of the EH-101s already delivered as part of the deal, whether they were returned or sold.

 

[Speedster1]

I was referring MORE to the situation along the LoC & the IB we share with Paxtan & BD respectively where one is on the path to implosion & the other has just embarked on a similar path.

The latter is particularly worrisome as we've already a massive infiltration problem poised to get worse & tackling it could well ignite a civil war in India for the way they've integrated themselves well into the fabric & body politic across the nation.

Both regimes are being propped up by and their moves orchestrated by the Americans. So our best bet imo is to work with Trump on keep their lapdogs on a tight leash. Both he and Modi wouldn't be averse to some kind of deal-making to keep things quiet. In the meantime, we need to step up fencing and border security along the BD border and exert pressure on the Pakistanis through scrapping IWT treaty and other unequal agreements. We can use Sheikh Hasina has a bargaining chip but put a caveat that we'd only deal with a legitimate, elected govt. Don't see how we could keep her here much longer.

I've written before on the reason HAL needs to be broken up into 4 entities which I won't elaborate on once again out here save to say if HAL had a unit dedicated for hptrs we'd have seen much more movement on the design & R&D segment along with JVs like the one they've signed with SAFRAN for TurboShafts ( TS) which'd have resulted in plenty of offerings to the civilian aerospace market domestically & later internationally.

Won't be easy. HAL is among the few profitable DPSUs and any attempt at restructuring will meet with fierce resistance from the coalition partners in the govt. Ditto for the long-awaited bureaucratic reforms.

So much for state of the art. Airbus seems to have picked up a lesson or 2 from the various foreign automobile brands & their MO of operating in India where they bring the entire product line of outdated models or ones which have already ceased production in more developed markets out here & we go gaga over it .

It's for the armed forces to take the initiative in this regard but inexplicably they always chose legacy designs. For example, the Navy would have happily inducted the Airbus Panther as its NUH while the IA/IAF were pushing for Ka-226, knowing full well those designs had exhausted their design potential. In fact, France is phasing out its Panthers for the swanky new H160- same class as ALH.

Now it could be tempting to see this as well as the C-295 mfg they've set up with TASL as perhaps exploratory steps before they get in for the real deal assuming they've such an agreement with the GoI but I highly doubt such a move.

I think it'd be hard for Airbus and Boeing to wriggle out of this, given that the civil aviation minister Scindia is quite savvy in these matters unlike the gent heading the MoD.

 

[randomradio]

For the forseeable future, the military market would remain a prize target for any helo manufacturer.

Both are equally important. If a company chases behind military only, then someone else will entrench themselves in the civilian sector. That's why Dassault Falcon has a huge advantage in India, and they will be fine in the long term if they don't get MRFA 'cause the business jet market can easily climb to 50-100 in a decade or so.

We're talking about peace-time ops where the phase out of Chetak/Cheetah is impacting logistics, medevac and other ops. Reportedly, LUH has been having issues with cabin vibration and as luck would have it, the Dhruv fleet is also grounded as of now.

That cannot be solved for a few more years.

Neither is Ka-226. It's derived from a 1960s-era relic called Ka-26. The Russian armed forces fly only a handful. That should tell how amazing it really is. I'd say LUH is a single-engine 'un-bundling' of the ALH or even half an ALH in the same vein as the C-27J Spartan was to the C-130J (Not an apples to apples comparison but you'd get the drift). Maintenance processes inevitably evolve over time.

It doesn't matter how old the base design is, even the Romeo is from the 70s. What's important is what it was designed for.

And maintenance processes are fixed, they can't evolve without changing the entire system.

Not even the US Army that has thousands of helos in its inventory does this. They've standardized on the Airbus Lakota after phasing out the old Kiowa Warriors.

That's a First World problem, it doesn't affect us. We can hire 5-10 people at the cost of 1 in the US.

The S-92 didn't meet specific SPG requirements (on-tarmac, close proximity pick-up for VIPs iirc) set out in the VVIP tender. However, following the bribery scandal, we know at least some of those requirements were diluted. Don't think the S-92 has replaced the venerable Seaking in the USMC VVIP fleet yet. Logically, IMRH should be the next VVIP helo of choice.

Sikorsky's helis move around many global leaders, including the US President. USMC is replacing their Sea King for VIP duties with S-92.

It's too early to use IMRH for VVIP duties. You need a proven service record.

 

[Ashwin]

Make no mistake. Airbus' ultimate goal is bagging military orders in India. The IA is already leasing civilian light helos with LUH facing vibration issues. They probably see a window of opportunity for H125.
Local production will bring down unit costs for their Caracal twin-engine medium helos as well. Apparently, the ICG wanted them.

It looks like it's just the civilian version. Competition is always good. The Caracal tender was scrapped a long time ago.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Both regimes are being propped up by and their moves orchestrated by the Americans. So our best bet imo is to work with Trump on keep their lapdogs on a tight leash. Both he and Modi wouldn't be averse to some kind of deal-making to keep things quiet. In the meantime, we need to step up fencing and border security along the BD border and exert pressure on the Pakistanis through scrapping IWT treaty and other unequal agreements. We can use Sheikh Hasina has a bargaining chip but put a caveat that we'd only deal with a legitimate, elected govt. Don't see how we could keep her here much longer.

Won't be easy. HAL is among the few profitable DPSUs and any attempt at restructuring will meet with fierce resistance from the coalition partners in the govt. Ditto for the long-awaited bureaucratic reforms.

I always suggested splitting up HAL into 4 constituents with cross holdings in each other coupled with GoI having a stake in it directly & thru GoI organs like the LIC etc to the tune of 60% with the rest offered to the public. That way ownership is secured .

In any case it's a DPSU which is deemed a strategic unit . Hostile takeovers of such entities are barred by law across the world.

Why would the union or coalition partners object to it ? If they do or the opposition does the former needs to be managed like we did in the OFB corporatisation program.

It's for the armed forces to take the initiative in this regard but inexplicably they always chose legacy designs. For example, the Navy would have happily inducted the Airbus Panther as its NUH while the IA/IAF were pushing for Ka-226, knowing full well those designs had exhausted their design potential. In fact, France is phasing out its Panthers for the swanky new H160- same class as ALH.

Armed forces opting for hptrs from foreign OEMs including our past favourite the Russkies is a thing of the past.

MoD didn't give in to the IN's tantrum & shoved the ULM down their throat a few years ago. Barring the Romeo none of the Foreign OEMs stand a chance in the hptr biz in India. You can say HAL has & will continue its monopoly in this sector as it were for a long time.

I think it'd be hard for Airbus and Boeing to wriggle out of this, given that the civil aviation minister Scindia is quite savvy in these matters unlike the gent heading the MoD.

I won't be holding my breath at your statement. Will believe it the day such a FAL is set up on Indian soil. In any case like I mentioned earlier , I don't think it's part of a larger deal .

The issues are 2 fold . Having burnt its fingers with China , the west will think twice before indulging in such activities in India. The recent classification of countries across the world as far as access to AI GPU SMCs or even smaller nodes of SMC's go & India's placement in Tier 2 is evidence of their thought process.

However in case of China especially as far as the EU goes they really have no choice given the deep the dependencies they've cultivated with China such that we're seeing the head of Mercedes Benz now appealing to his government in Germany to do away with punitive tariffs on Chinese EVs calling for fair trade . .

It's not as ridiculous as you think it is when you consider the considerable revenue German companies especially their automobile sector derives from China.

It's a losing proposition as the Chinese make a switch from ICE to EV . However the Germans are so boxed in & starved for alternatives that though they know their goose is cooked not just in China but in other markets they don't have a choice & have to make do with a diminished revenue stream for now.

In other words , they'd continue the practice of making deals with diminished returns for their very survival depends on it

Hats off to the CCP for inverting the century of humiliation though the prime countries responsible for that event were Little Britain & the US with Germany being a peripheral player.

 

[Speedster1]

Both are equally important. If a company chases behind military only, then someone else will entrench themselves in the civilian sector. That's why Dassault Falcon has a huge advantage in India, and they will be fine in the long term if they don't get MRFA 'cause the business jet market can easily climb to 50-100 in a decade or so.

To be clear, I was referring to the Indian market only. Airbus sees potential for upto 500 sales for the H125 over the next several years. However, the Indian forces needed over 400 as of yesterday. You can bet they'll pitch the Fennec sooner than later. Let's not forget that Dassault is not setting up the Nagpur assembly line in JV with an Indian partner. And that means no ToT/knowledge transfer to Indian industry. The French get to have their cake and eat it too. Well, we might not have a home-grown exec jet like the Falcon, but we can't let LUH orders be cannibalized.

It looks like it's just the civilian version. Competition is always good. The Caracal tender was scrapped a long time ago.

Competition is needed, no doubt. But they're setting up a captive facility for H125 with no local participation. That way they can check all the boxes in terms of MII and not give away any IP. And this helo has been around for decades.

It doesn't matter how old the base design is, even the Romeo is from the 70s. What's important is what it was designed for.

Personally, I think Ka-226 is over-engineered for a light helo. Complex co-axial rotors, modular cabins and what not. More expensive to fly and maintain than a Fennec or LUH.

Sikorsky's helis move around many global leaders, including the US President. USMC is replacing their Sea King for VIP duties with S-92.

Last I checked, Sikorsky was still fixing some issues with regard to rotor down-wash.

I always suggested splitting up HAL into 4 constituents with cross holdings in each other coupled with GoI having a stake in it directly & thru GoI organs like the LIC etc to the tune of 60% with the rest offered to the public. That way ownership is secured .

Why jump through so many hoops when you could just transfer management control of HAL to the IAF? This has been a long-standing demand from them. If this works, it could be replicated across other DPSUs too.

MoD didn't give in to the IN's tantrum & shoved the ULM down their throat a few years ago. Barring the Romeo none of the Foreign OEMs stand a chance in the hptr biz in India. You can say HAL has & will continue its monopoly in this sector as it were for a long time.

Let's hope the ULM is certified and a deal signed while the present govt is still in power.

I won't be holding my breath at your statement. Will believe it the day such a FAL is set up on Indian soil. In any case like I mentioned earlier , I don't think it's part of a larger deal .

Barring China which btw has already begun transitioning to COMAC series airliners, no other market has much as demand as India. As new greenfield airports get built in Tier 2 and 3 cities, hundreds more would be needed, including most notably the A380. The latter has turned out to be a damp squib in terms of orders for Airbus but India clearly needs it.

The PLI scheme and other incentives has been a big draw among foreign companies like Foxxconn et all. Airbus and Boeing could see a business case in building FAL in India. Embraer looks like a good short-term prospect.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Why jump through so many hoops when you could just transfer management control of HAL to the IAF? This has been a long-standing demand from them. If this works, it could be replicated across other DPSUs too.

That approach was tried earlier & apparently it didn't work . Moreover this isn't merely a problem pertaining to the military . Most of the issues were threshed out during the ALH saga. Whatever you're seeing now is routine issues not on the same level as what one saw during the induction of the various iterations of the ALH into the services.

Both parties - HAL as well as the IAF have achieved a certain understanding on what can be achieved how & when , the teething problems being consigned to the past.

My larger point was exploitation of the commercial aspects of the same platform. As long as HAL remains services focused this will continue to be a problem . The idea is to evolve at least the hptr division of HAL into a broader entity catering to both defence as well as the civilian aerospace market much like Bell or Airbus.

This can only be done by carving out a Hindustan Helicopter Ltd - HHL & a civilian airliner division carved out of HAL called for instance National Aerospace Ltd merging it with NAL to look after the civilian aerospace sector & military transport like say Airbus catering to projects like the long delayed RTA.

Let's hope the ULM is certified and a deal signed while the present govt is still in power.

Should be through this year I'm guessing.

Barring China which btw has already begun transitioning to COMAC series airliners, no other market has much as demand as India. As new greenfield airports get built in Tier 2 and 3 cities, hundreds more would be needed, including most notably the A380. The latter has turned out to be a damp squib in terms of orders for Airbus but India clearly needs it.

The PLI scheme and other incentives has been a big draw among foreign companies like Foxxconn et all. Airbus and Boeing could see a business case in building FAL in India. Embraer looks like a good short-term prospect.

We need the RTA ASAP as well as commercial exploitation of the LUH . Whether the former comes thru indigenous efforts or thru a JV like the Mahindra EMBRAER JV , I don't know , though I'd prefer the former except that it's moving as per Indian Standard Time.

The latter would make sense only if Mahindra has the vision to take over EMBRAER with the blessings of the GoI acting in tandem with the latter if it is possible though that's the long term goal.

Under no circumstances can we permit our civilan aerospace market to be handed over to the likes of Airbus etc at least as far as hptrs go to be exploited in collaboration with local lala companies which is exactly how the Tatas operate. Ask me I know the "famed " or infamous Tata culture.

In many ways this is symptomatic of this particular GoI's myopic approach wherein instead of leveraging domestic demand to force foreign OEMs in the metro mfg industry in JVs with local manufacturers we handed it over to them on a platter like the RRTS to Alsthom & other such projects. Compare that to how China went about this & how their companies in less than 2 decades not only absorbed tech to boot those foreign OEMs out of China but are now giving them competition in international markets.