Indian Defense Industry General News and Updates

Too early to say. But we are headed in the right direction. Our R&D expenditure is too low, but the focus has shifted to indigenization now.

Plus there have been mass supersessions within DRDO since Modi came in. Younger scientists have been given promotions over their senior counterparts. That's playing a significant part in accelerating development. When promotions are not guaranteed based on seniority, accountability has increased. Promoting scientists based on merit is what's necessary. So now directors cannot delay projects in order to push their tenures beyond their retirement age.
I think the problem with the MII is that the government is demanding both indigenization and cutting edge technology at the same time. I mean a project like AMCA still seems a tad far-fetched given the maturity of our defence industry. Honestly, we might have been better off partnering with an established manufacturer, although who I don't know. Maybe the French could have helped us. It's like we're trying to go from 20 to a 100 in one go which might lead to TEDBF and AMCA being quite late to the game given our history of delays. I mean Western nations and maybe even China will be rolling out sixth-gen prototypes by the time we're done completing AMCA.

HAL has done a great job with the LCH Prachand but that came after a couple of decades of designing and manufacturing helicopters. They set realistic goals and made iterative improvements. Even the latest models of the LCH have small design improvements compared to a couple of years ago if I'm not wrong. I noticed newer dust covers and different antennae placement. The rear wings were changed a little earlier and the aerofoil over the rear wheel was added. Overall, the airframe is a lot cleaner and I'm sure there were a lot of trial and error improvements made on the cockpit and user interface.

This is why IN shines through in comparison to IAF and IA. Our boats might not be fully indigenous but we took help from our partners. Israel with Barak 8 and MF-STAR. Made incremental improvements to stealth, sometimes even between ships of the same class. Another example of an Indian organisation doing thngs this way is Indian Railways and associated factories. The Vande Bharat just came out, I believe around 300-400 will be built and then comes Mk2 and a Mk3 is reportedly planned to be built predominantly out of aluminium. It's not that government sponsored manufacturers don't make solid products, it's just that there are only a handful of them. We can definitely make decent hardware even if it's not as falshy as say similar stuff from China, Germany, France, Japan, The United States etc., but that's totally understandable given our limited budgets/resources.
 
I mean a project like AMCA still seems a tad far-fetched given the maturity of our defence industry. Honestly, we might have been better off partnering with an established manufacturer, although who I don't know. Maybe the French could have helped us. It's like we're trying to go from 20 to a 100 in one go which might lead to TEDBF and AMCA being quite late to the game given our history of delays. I mean Western nations and maybe even China will be rolling out sixth-gen prototypes by the time we're done completing AMCA.
They may go in for consultation with some overseas partner for selective items as far as AMCA goes & if not that then outright purchase . They won't repeat the mistakes of the LCA project once again . Other than that , I don't see much cutting edge stuff on the TEDBF . Whatever their learnings from the NLCA program & whatever is being developed for the Mk-2 & AMCA will go into the TEDBF . Other than this , whatever else may be needed is surely not out of the reach of the Indian aerospace ecosystem.

The only big worry is the engine which we are supposed to be developing . The Plan B for which has already been put in place in case Plan A doesn't work out .
 
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I think the problem with the MII is that the government is demanding both indigenization and cutting edge technology at the same time. I mean a project like AMCA still seems a tad far-fetched given the maturity of our defence industry. Honestly, we might have been better off partnering with an established manufacturer, although who I don't know. Maybe the French could have helped us. It's like we're trying to go from 20 to a 100 in one go which might lead to TEDBF and AMCA being quite late to the game given our history of delays. I mean Western nations and maybe even China will be rolling out sixth-gen prototypes by the time we're done completing AMCA.

HAL has done a great job with the LCH Prachand but that came after a couple of decades of designing and manufacturing helicopters. They set realistic goals and made iterative improvements. Even the latest models of the LCH have small design improvements compared to a couple of years ago if I'm not wrong. I noticed newer dust covers and different antennae placement. The rear wings were changed a little earlier and the aerofoil over the rear wheel was added. Overall, the airframe is a lot cleaner and I'm sure there were a lot of trial and error improvements made on the cockpit and user interface.

This is why IN shines through in comparison to IAF and IA. Our boats might not be fully indigenous but we took help from our partners. Israel with Barak 8 and MF-STAR. Made incremental improvements to stealth, sometimes even between ships of the same class. Another example of an Indian organisation doing thngs this way is Indian Railways and associated factories. The Vande Bharat just came out, I believe around 300-400 will be built and then comes Mk2 and a Mk3 is reportedly planned to be built predominantly out of aluminium. It's not that government sponsored manufacturers don't make solid products, it's just that there are only a handful of them. We can definitely make decent hardware even if it's not as falshy as say similar stuff from China, Germany, France, Japan, The United States etc., but that's totally understandable given our limited budgets/resources.
You should realise that foreign consultancy is not cheap and all our partnership with foreign partners turned out be scam latest examples being su 57 and mrsam.
 
MRSAM is actually a good success, lots of programs stemming or utilising tech developed for it which we will see in near future.

LCH what we are seeing still belong to LSP, limited series, hence no atgm integration done due to both IA/IAF failing to select one atgm & vibration issue persisting, which can cause sudden motor ignition of those, while flying these machines create too much static electricity. If you see the LCH fly with cockpit video posted couple of months ago you can see its vibrating heavily inside the pilot cabin. Once that is fixed & LCH cleared for series production along with other improvements we will see a better machine. Right now those 10+5 LSP being delivered to the forces are sort of trial use, like the tejas IOC/FOC now flying.
 
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re: the nuh radar at 4, could be this

maritimeradar1.png


If you want the last presentation

 
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I think the problem with the MII is that the government is demanding both indigenization and cutting edge technology at the same time. I mean a project like AMCA still seems a tad far-fetched given the maturity of our defence industry. Honestly, we might have been better off partnering with an established manufacturer, although who I don't know. Maybe the French could have helped us. It's like we're trying to go from 20 to a 100 in one go which might lead to TEDBF and AMCA being quite late to the game given our history of delays. I mean Western nations and maybe even China will be rolling out sixth-gen prototypes by the time we're done completing AMCA.

HAL has done a great job with the LCH Prachand but that came after a couple of decades of designing and manufacturing helicopters. They set realistic goals and made iterative improvements. Even the latest models of the LCH have small design improvements compared to a couple of years ago if I'm not wrong. I noticed newer dust covers and different antennae placement. The rear wings were changed a little earlier and the aerofoil over the rear wheel was added. Overall, the airframe is a lot cleaner and I'm sure there were a lot of trial and error improvements made on the cockpit and user interface.

This is why IN shines through in comparison to IAF and IA. Our boats might not be fully indigenous but we took help from our partners. Israel with Barak 8 and MF-STAR. Made incremental improvements to stealth, sometimes even between ships of the same class. Another example of an Indian organisation doing thngs this way is Indian Railways and associated factories. The Vande Bharat just came out, I believe around 300-400 will be built and then comes Mk2 and a Mk3 is reportedly planned to be built predominantly out of aluminium. It's not that government sponsored manufacturers don't make solid products, it's just that there are only a handful of them. We can definitely make decent hardware even if it's not as falshy as say similar stuff from China, Germany, France, Japan, The United States etc., but that's totally understandable given our limited budgets/resources.

AMCA is being developed after ADA showed IAF they have the ability to do it. The first version of AMCA was a much simpler aircraft, with frontal stealth, a standard F414 engine, no supercruise etc. Once feasibility studies were completed, the IAF put their money on AMCA and it climbed up to what it is today. The IAF will have backup plans in case of delays or failure.

As for competing with the Chinese, we do not need to match their development speed. The difference between 5th and 6th gen is not a lot, both types use the same class of engines, a turbofan. So the real differences will boil down to avionics and the combat cloud, including the capabilities of the accompanying drones.

While the IN has been historically ahead in terms of indigenisation, it's still an unfair comparison because all three forces are struggling with low amounts of indigenisation in pretty much the same areas, that's propulsion and firepower. The IN's only real indigenisation success has been in developing ship hulls, and this does not matter to the IA and IAF. Otoh, the IN is struggling with indigenising weapons, the same as the IA and IAF. In fact, due to recent developments, the IAF has taken the lead in terms of indigenisation due to the success of defence electronics. In 5 years, the IA will catch up with the IAF, whereas the IN will be the last to fully indigenise, the sticking point being propulsion.

Divide things into three categories; hull/airframe/platform/prime mover, weapons and engines. At this time, all three have achieved indigenisation in the first category; LCA/AMCA's airframe, tank and IFV hull designs, truck designs and ship hull designs. In terms of weapons and associated electronics like radar, the IAF has taken the lead, and IN and IA are close behind. The IA needs 2 more years to catch up, SAMs, artillery guns, upgrade programs for armoured vehicles etc. In about 5 years, all three should be on par with each other. The last is engines; the IAF has seen some success via Kaveri, and we should get something out of the engine JV. The IA's engines have seen some movement as well, we have indigenised foreign engines, and we will pretty soon get our own homemade engine for armoured vehicles. But the IN is dependent on the success of IAF programs first, Kaveri and the engine JV for example.

With the success of the Uttam radar and associated weapons like Astra, along with Kaveri being used in the IUSAV, and the LCA, the IAF has taken the lead. The IA is a close second with the Arjun, artillery and FICV. The IN still needs new air defence designs for future ships, so that's where they are at right now. The IN's propulsion goals need work, both conventional like gas turbines, diesel engines, AIP, electricity, steam and nuclear. They have seen some success in steam and nuclear via the SSBN and SSN programs, but it's not enough.
 
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Idea forge drone production has shot up by almost 10 times in around the last 18 months. Their Switch drone can take off from heights of almost 15,000ft and fly up to 19,600ft . Also talks about their Netra V4 Plus drone , which can do a vertical take-off at 19,600ft. It has outperformed many foreign drones which took part in trials in India.

 

Radar-equipped drones deployed on LoC to detect underground, invisible tunnels



radars currently in use were developed by an Indian manufacturer and work by producing strong radio waves to detect the presence of tunnels beneath the earth and map their length. additional capabilities have been added to the BSF surveillance equipment to aid ground soldiers in anti-tunnelling exercises.
 
That is why I was not very concerned with the submarine program before, several projects are ongoing that are based on sub platform. Prelim stage for many yes, but eventually those tech/product go into a sub & also scaled into other application too. For instance the Li-ion battery tech, DRDO developed it for sub use primarily, now it is becoming multi use variety of products on land applications too. The point is initially we can suffer a bit for lack of enough numbers on the ssn/ssk front, but gradually as budget persists we will see very good indigenous sub programs developing.

About the amca, I got to say I am a bit uncomfortable of IAF jumping straight onto a very niche tech application without flying any imported stealth jet first. Be it the first batch of amca being more 4.5 gen, as su-57 is, than 5th gen. First hand understanding of tactics, getting used to it, imo would be good if a small batch of such planes are inducted sometime before 2040, just 1 sqn would do for me.
 
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That alcm based on Nirbhay stuff there, how further are they targeting for work to continue? I mean, nirbhay itself was validated & those two programs sprang based on its tech, but the actual stfe based test is yet to function, in fact no success on it. The engine did not turn on last time reportedly.

So, won't it be prudent to let the industry work on it? JSR, paninian etc are working on such subsonic scaled products. I would be happy with land attack/dual use rudram series fully functional up to 400km range at first.
 
That is why I was not very concerned with the submarine program before, several projects are ongoing that are based on sub platform. Prelim stage for many yes, but eventually those tech/product go into a sub & also scaled into other application too. For instance the Li-ion battery tech, DRDO developed it for sub use primarily, now it is becoming multi use variety of products on land applications too. The point is initially we can suffer a bit for lack of enough numbers on the ssn/ssk front, but gradually as budget persists we will see very good indigenous sub programs developing.

About the amca, I got to say I am a bit uncomfortable of IAF jumping straight onto a very niche tech application without flying any imported stealth jet first. Be it the first batch of amca being more 4.5 gen, as su-57 is, than 5th gen. First hand understanding of tactics, getting used to it, imo would be good if a small batch of such planes are inducted sometime before 2040, just 1 sqn would do for me.

AMCA is unlikely to be the IAF's primary ASF, so they can risk it here. Between 2030-35, they need to start a new MKI-replacement program.
 
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Isn't HPR were supposed to be indigenous then how this screwdrivegiri came into picture.
Seems dalal lobby some how managed to change the criteria from buy (indian IDDM) to buy(indian) category, very alarming.

Pursuing the goal of indigenisation and self-reliance in the field of Defence Procurements, the DAC approved procurement of 12 High Power Radars for the Indian Air Force under ‘Buy (Indian) IDDM’ category.
 
You should realise that foreign consultancy is not cheap and all our partnership with foreign partners turned out be scam latest examples being su 57 and mrsam.
I guess I was referring to joint ventures rather than consultation. Projects like Brahmos. My thinking being that the value lies in the development of our engineers and technicians as it helps our technology get "up to speed" or well, up to current gen levels at least. We don't manufacture military equipment in the same numbers as our northern neighbour so reverse-engineering is not really a viable option. Joint ventures are a good alternative.

Just my thoughts. I don't have in-depth knowlege on these matters as some of you guys here seem to.
 
About the amca, I got to say I am a bit uncomfortable of IAF jumping straight onto a very niche tech application without flying any imported stealth jet first. Be it the first batch of amca being more 4.5 gen, as su-57 is, than 5th gen. First hand understanding of tactics, getting used to it, imo would be good if a small batch of such planes are inducted sometime before 2040, just 1 sqn would do for me.
No need to be uncomfortable about it, US, Russia & China are operating 5th gen tech without importing any. Countries like france are willing to develop 5+ gen fighter without importing. Imported equipments are developed as per the requirements of OEM’s country and tactics. Importers have to develop new tactics around imported systems. So AMCA will fit in our tactics automatically while we would need to develop alternate tactics for imported systems.
For e.g. US developed F 35 as per their requirements of common platform for Marines, navy & airforce while other importers have to bear the compromises made for its multiple role even though they dnt require VTOL. Similarly we had to bear Russian Su 57 as per RuAF tactics compromising stealth. Thankfully we opted out.
 
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No need to be uncomfortable about it, US, Russia & China are operating 5th gen tech without importing any. Countries like france are willing to develop 5+ gen fighter without importing. Imported equipments are developed as per the requirements of OEM’s country and tactics. Importers have to develop new tactics around imported systems. So AMCA will fit in our tactics automatically while we would need to develop alternate tactics for imported systems.
Yeah I do not contest that, we know our forces are a bit reactionary in nature, and very much risk averse. So it was a bit surprising for me, given our initial intention was to develop 5th gen stealth platform with Rus jointly, a country that has good capability of developing tacde, training related to other gen of jets, they are well experienced. If we had persisted, that would have been a work-share. So from there we are now willing to go in it alone, from a single engine LCA to twin engine stealth jet directly, not just a single gen gap. I would say its significant longer jump into new territory. The tradeoff could be huge.
 
Yeah I do not contest that, we know our forces are a bit reactionary in nature, and very much risk averse. So it was a bit surprising for me, given our initial intention was to develop 5th gen stealth platform with Rus jointly, a country that has good capability of developing tacde, training related to other gen of jets, they are well experienced. If we had persisted, that would have been a work-share. So from there we are now willing to go in it alone, from a single engine LCA to twin engine stealth jet directly, not just a single gen gap. I would say its significant longer jump into new territory. The tradeoff could be huge.
You're forgetting that the AMCA has a 2 stage development. The definitive version will come post 2035 likely more like 2040 by the time it achieved it's FOC.

Our hope realistically ought to be that the Mk-2 being certified FOC in 2035-40 T/L equals the F-35 ( for want of a better benchmark) of today minus the myriad problems it faces & the AMCA - Mk3 ( for want of a better term) being certified FOC in 2045-50 T/L equals the upgraded F-35 in 2030-32 T/L or should be in the same bandwidth.

That way we can ensure the capability gap between us & the West is not more than a generation or hopefully less than that .
 
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