Indian Economy : News,Discussions & Updates

China is still not at Western levels yet. And India is still too poor to compete, but we are getting there.

But the electronics industry will go nowhere without extensive govt support. There is right now a plan for two semiconductor fabs in India, one for Silicon and another for GaN, so let's see where that takes us. High end electronics is part of the "Make in India 2.0" program.
While China isn't at Western levels , I'm pretty sure they'd be there in a couple of decades . Meanwhile , the gap between our capabilities and those of China in this field is fast resembling a gulf - that too unbreachable.

I've been hearing of those stories about fab labs & foundries since 2012 . Guess what ? I read one of those consortiums has backed off and there's no news about the other one .

MII as of now is running on neutral gear . The only point I agree here with you is on GoI intervention in the form of finance , tax breaks , etc as a facilitator and guarantor on a massive scale . And if someone of Modi's calibre hasn't delivered , God help if we see another avatar of Deve Gowda in the form of a Momota or Nitish in the PM's chair come 2019. We'd be back to coalition era firefighting and survival politics.
 
While China isn't at Western levels , I'm pretty sure they'd be there in a couple of decades . Meanwhile , the gap between our capabilities and those of China in this field is fast resembling a gulf - that too unbreachable.

Our scientific pool is superior, on par with the best in the world. It was Indian scientists working for Intel that developed the world's first multicore processors. And even today the Indian designed Xeon family of processors are unmatched. And with our more open diplomatic relations with the Western and the advanced East Asian countries, we can only progress faster compared to the Chinese.

I've been hearing of those stories about fab labs & foundries since 2012 . Guess what ? I read one of those consortiums has backed off and there's no news about the other one .

There were 3. 2 were for Silicon and 1 was GaN. So now there are two, after one of them backed out of the program.

Govt to study IISc’s Rs 2,500-crore semiconductor fab proposal

MII as of now is running on neutral gear . The only point I agree here with you is on GoI intervention in the form of finance , tax breaks , etc as a facilitator and guarantor on a massive scale . And if someone of Modi's calibre hasn't delivered , God help if we see another avatar of Deve Gowda in the form of a Momota or Nitish in the PM's chair come 2019. We'd be back to coalition era firefighting and survival politics.

Modi has to win LS and get majority in RS and then has to deliver on land and labour reforms. Without this, even if the Chinese run India, they also won't deliver.

If anybody other than Modi wins the next elections, then there will be no development happening for who knows how many years. Funny how our economic growth is now dependent on just one man.

And our economy should make a full switch to capitalism ASAP. Socialism tendencies should permanently disappear.
 
Our scientific pool is superior, on par with the best in the world. It was Indian scientists working for Intel that developed the world's first multicore processors. And even today the Indian designed Xeon family of processors are unmatched. And with our more open diplomatic relations with the Western and the advanced East Asian countries, we can only progress faster compared to the Chinese.

Where did I deny the talent pool ? I'm referring to Indian owned and managed companies to make that progress like the Chinese are doing not Indian scientists in western owned or managed companies or We'd see those same Indian scientists accomplishing much better scientific achievements in Chinese firms.


There were 3. 2 were for Silicon and 1 was GaN. So now there are two, after one of them backed out of the program.

Govt to study IISc’s Rs 2,500-crore semiconductor fab proposal

2500 crores ? Are you joking ? Look at the allotments the Chinese have made ! And this can be achieved thru public + private participation only .And fast...


Modi has to win LS and get majority in RS and then has to deliver on land and labour reforms. Without this, even if the Chinese run India, they also won't deliver.

If anybody other than Modi wins the next elections, then there will be no development happening for who knows how many years. Funny how our economic growth is now dependent on just one man.

And our economy should make a full switch to capitalism ASAP. Socialism tendencies should permanently disappear.

Agreed .
 
Where did I deny the talent pool ? I'm referring to Indian owned and managed companies to make that progress like the Chinese are doing not Indian scientists in western owned or managed companies or We'd see those same Indian scientists accomplishing much better scientific achievements in Chinese firms.

The point is when you have talent pool, all you need is investment. The talent pool can easily be poached. The Chinese don't have that talent pool, so they are forced to poach foreigners instead.

Large companies like Tata and Reliance can make that jump as fabless companies the minute they feel the market has matured. Even the Chinese are making such investments based on the maturity of their own market. Look back 10-15 years ago, they were nowhere then. Once the market matures, the companies will simply hire the talent at a higher pay, but these companies have to be subsidised by the govt.

2500 crores ? Are you joking ? Look at the allotments the Chinese have made ! And this can be achieved thru public + private participation only .And fast...

Money is dependent on scale. We don't need the scale right now. But we have to make a start first, build up the local talent pool.

I wouldn't be too worried about it in terms of capital alone. Semiconductor business is technology intensive. By the time we start playing in the big boys league, even other big boys will have to make large investments to stay relevant, like TSMC investing $25B into their 5-nm facility this year.
 
The point is when you have talent pool, all you need is investment. The talent pool can easily be poached. The Chinese don't have that talent pool, so they are forced to poach foreigners instead.


I think you're conflating 2 separate issues here . What do you mean by we have the talent pool ? If by we you mean Indians then you're mistaken . There's no difference between these " we " and those " we " who in our 1000 years of our slavery served foreign masters and helped prolong their rule . In other words ,they're mercenaries available to the highest bidder .

Just because a few Indians happened to develop chip sets doesn't mean India or Indians have the IPR to it.

I also don't subscribe to your theory that the Chinese lack expertise in this field . How do you explain the fact that most of the leading foundries are in China and some are of Chinese origin . I'm afraid you're simplifying matters here when you state that since the Chinese lack skilled personnel they're seeking to poach foreign talent . Rather they lack advanced technological expertise which explains why they're shopping in the West for such Chip R&D firms primarily and secondarily for such talent pool as they're seeking .

Large companies like Tata and Reliance can make that jump as fabless companies the minute they feel the market has matured. Even the Chinese are making such investments based on the maturity of their own market. Look back 10-15 years ago, they were nowhere then. Once the market matures, the companies will simply hire the talent at a higher pay, but these companies have to be subsidised by the govt.

There's a dichotomy in what you're suggesting . Down below you explain away the measly 2.5k Crore investment as we have to start somewhere & out here you're expecting the market to mature before the big Indian cos commit massive investment assuming the GoI is willing to underwrite a significant part of it .

Your logic of where was China 10-15 years ago in this field is also frayed . China laid the foundations then . Which is why they're where they are today - Just a generation behind . Whereas we've missed the bus - which is the thrust of the article . If we don't commit ourselves to a Plan of Action soon and more importantly implement it on a war footing , we'd have missed this part of the post industrial revolution in the electronics field completely .



Money is dependent on scale. We don't need the scale right now. But we have to make a start first, build up the local talent pool.

Agreed but you're using contrarian logic here & a complete U turn to what you've expressed above .


I wouldn't be too worried about it in terms of capital alone. Semiconductor business is technology intensive. By the time we start playing in the big boys league, even other big boys will have to make large investments to stay relevant, like TSMC investing $25B into their 5-nm facility this year.

We aren't going to play in the big boys league by merely investing 2.5 K Crore without building the entire eco system and taking steps to nurture this fledgling enterprise by implementing protectionist measures .It's a start but these are baby steps . Our fab industry would literally need to go from crawling to standing to walking to running in a quarter of the time the other industries took . And that's easier said than done .

GoI certainly can't do it alone and as of now for some strange reason they haven't sat down across the table with senior indigenous industry representatives to ask them what their plans were on this front .

For if we depend on GoI to run the show from R&D to chip fabrication , this would be going down the same way the entire Tejas program turned out.

I think the article is right on the buck when it says that we ought to follow the standard template that nations like Taiwan , Japan , South Korea or even China followed which is a privately managed and driven enterprise with Government finances & other support .
 
I think you're conflating 2 separate issues here . What do you mean by we have the talent pool ? If by we you mean Indians then you're mistaken . There's no difference between these " we " and those " we " who in our 1000 years of our slavery served foreign masters and helped prolong their rule . In other words ,they're mercenaries available to the highest bidder .

Just because a few Indians happened to develop chip sets doesn't mean India or Indians have the IPR to it.

No, you can't compare the Indian talent pool to the Chinese.

India conducts R&D for the West, the Chinese only produce low end stuff for the West. Both Intel and Cisco have their second biggest R&D centers in India. The same for many other countries. Even if an Indian company does not hold IPR today, we have the ability to generate new IPR very quickly, when the time to invest in it comes.

I also don't subscribe to your theory that the Chinese lack expertise in this field . How do you explain the fact that most of the leading foundries are in China and some are of Chinese origin . I'm afraid you're simplifying matters here when you state that since the Chinese lack skilled personnel they're seeking to poach foreign talent . Rather they lack advanced technological expertise which explains why they're shopping in the West for such Chip R&D firms primarily and secondarily for such talent pool as they're seeking .

The Chinese definitely have expertise. But we have a head start when it comes to talent pool.

Bangalore designs Intel's first quad-core processor - Times of India

There's a dichotomy in what you're suggesting . Down below you explain away the measly 2.5k Crore investment as we have to start somewhere & out here you're expecting the market to mature before the big Indian cos commit massive investment assuming the GoI is willing to underwrite a significant part of it .

We need the fabs today to cater to some parts of the market. For example, when it comes to Silicon fab, AMD wants to make India their production hub for the entire world. But this fab will start small, and then scale up, which can take as much as 10 years.

The market has to mature. It's not a choice.

Your logic of where was China 10-15 years ago in this field is also frayed . China laid the foundations then . Which is why they're where they are today - Just a generation behind .

It's because their market is mature. They are making real investments for large scale production as a $15T economy. Whereas we already have the talent pool that they lack even today.

Without talent pool, other stuff like money and govt support are useless. The UAE has tried and failed. The Chinese are pouring that much money in order to get the talent pool. Otoh, Intel is training dozens of Indians every year in their Bangalore office.

Just look at their designations.
https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salary/...e-Salaries-EI_IE1519.0,17_IL.18,27_IM1091.htm

‘Intel will continue to hire in India’

And this is just one company.

Designing chips for the world - Times of India
The department of electronics and information technology (DeitY) says that nearly 2,000 chips are being designed every year in India and more than 20,000
engineers are working on various aspects of chip design and verification.


Electronics industry to set up 3 chip design centres

We aren't going to play in the big boys league by merely investing 2.5 K Crore without building the entire eco system and taking steps to nurture this fledgling enterprise by implementing protectionist measures .

The 2.5K Cr is about technology, not scale. Instead of making millions of processors a year, they will be able to make 10,000 or even just 100. This is not about very large scale production meant for global exports. The world isn't ready yet for GaN processors. Very few high end industries will be using it. That's why the project is lead by IISc, not by some company.

There is no difference in technology when making 20 F-35s a year versus 200 F-35s a year. To build 20 F-35s, you will need to spend only about $2B. To make 200, you may have to spend $20B. So what you see in other countries is the scale of the production. We don't need to make such investments.

For some reason, you are comparing scale with design talent. Our market cannot handle that scale, but we design stuff that the entire world uses.

GoI certainly can't do it alone and as of now for some strange reason they haven't sat down across the table with senior indigenous industry representatives to ask them what their plans were on this front .

It's been happening since a long time.

For if we depend on GoI to run the show from R&D to chip fabrication , this would be going down the same way the entire Tejas program turned out.

I think the article is right on the buck when it says that we ought to follow the standard template that nations like Taiwan , Japan , South Korea or even China followed which is a privately managed and driven enterprise with Government finances & other support .

The govt will not manage anything. Their job is to provide infrastructure, easy financing and subsidies.
 
The point is when you have talent pool, all you need is investment. The talent pool can easily be poached. The Chinese don't have that talent pool, so they are forced to poach foreigners instead.
Wrong assumption. Both Indian and Chinese contributed significantly in Silicon Valley. But currently China has better talent available in China compared to India.

Talent pool cannot be easily poached. Most Indians have moved to US not for money but quality of life. Top quality engineers make good money and have a settled and comfortable life. Why would they go back just for few extra backs ??
 
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Normally you're very loquacious on topics where your expertise is found lacking and here's a subject you've got a good grasp on and you prefer being economical with your words .
Normally news is fake/exaggerated.
 
Wrong assumption. Both Indian and Chinese contributed significantly in Silicon Valley. But currently China has better talent available in China compared to India.

Strictly speaking, the people who made the Xeon were from India. As for China, they are yet to make something world class.

China definitely has more talent, but better talent, yet to be seen. In comparison, India already has world class talent at the current economic level.

Talent pool cannot be easily poached. Most Indians have moved to US not for money but quality of life. Top quality engineers make good money and have a settled and comfortable life. Why would they go back just for few extra backs ??

I am talking about the talent pool that's still in India.

Meet the Indians behind Intel's fastest server processor!

‘Intel will continue to hire in India’
Rai is focused on organically growing the number of Principal Engineers (29) and Senior Principal Engineers (6) by 3X times that will bring Intel India on par with other most mature sites such as the US and Israel.

As for the perks of coming back...
1. Acceptable improvement in quality of life in India over the coming decade.
2. Profits through entrepreneurship.
3. A chance to make history and be remembered by pioneering world class Indian owned IPR. Mentioned in history books, get industry awards etc. Vinod Dham.

We shouldn't be talking about what India can do today, but we should be talking about how competitive India will be in the 2025-30 period. That's when we can start making all the big investments into fab tech.

Regardless, in just 10 years, we will have thousands of people with decades of experience in chip designing within India itself. We don't need NRI individuals, we need Indian companies.
 
Our scientific pool is superior,
please do not underestimate the chinese talent pool.

in every university I have known (Umich Ann arbor - ranked 5 for manufactuing and aerospace, Harvard, etc) it is the Chinese who are the top performers. the kicker? while Indians stay back in the USA and their kids win the spelling bee, the Chinese go back because their govt assures them full support if you bring back technology.

The political climate in India made sure many of the people from the talent pool you talked about - go out side India. while non-merit people get a bigger share of the limited resources due to political climate.

however, there is one thing that is very much in India's favor and not in Chinas. and that is - the growth we are experiencing is more organic and not fueled by a govt policy. which means a bad government can reduce our growth potential but wont erode it. In China, if you get a bad government, it would wipe out a lot of gains.
 
As for China, they are yet to make something world class.
their economy is world class
their manufacturing sector and supply chain efficiency is world class
their semi conductor manufacturing is so strong, no one can compete with them
their UAV manufacturing is actually going to over take USA pretty soon.

I want India to match or beat China too. but saying that we already have better "world class" stuff than them is not going to help us. Identifying the problem and the gaps are the first step towards bridging the gaps. and the gap does exist in almost every place.
 
their economy is world class
their manufacturing sector and supply chain efficiency is world class
their semi conductor manufacturing is so strong, no one can compete with them
their UAV manufacturing is actually going to over take USA pretty soon.

I want India to match or beat China too. but saying that we already have better "world class" stuff than them is not going to help us. Identifying the problem and the gaps are the first step towards bridging the gaps. and the gap does exist in almost every place.

You are being too general. I am being specific to the semiconductor industry.

Indian scientists have made the Xeon, which even the Chinese admit is superior to their own designs. They are yet to make a processor chip that is world class, something we achieved back in 2008, regardless of the fact that it was under Intel.
 
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You are being too general. I am being specific to the semiconductor industry.

Indian scientists have made the Xeon, which even the Chinese admit is superior to their own designs. They are yet to make a processor chip that is world class, something we achieved back in 2008, regardless of the fact that it was under Intel.
Who said Indians made Xeon? It’s Intel who made it and thousands of people would have worked on it. You are counting on an article published by rediff??

Whether it’s Intel, AMD or Qualcomm, no real innovation happens in Indian centers. It’s unfortunate but bitter truth. All the complicated portions are designed in US and only the derivatives and repitative work is pushed to India. Articles like these are just plain publicity.

Intel did try to design a processor in India center during 2004-06, known as “Whitefield”. But it failed and that was a serious setback.

Huawei does have its own application processor and modem. Which Indian company has developed such chips??
 
Who said Indians made Xeon? It’s Intel who made it and thousands of people would have worked on it. You are counting on an article published by rediff??

Whether it’s Intel, AMD or Qualcomm, no real innovation happens in Indian centers. It’s unfortunate but bitter truth. All the complicated portions are designed in US and only the derivatives and repitative work is pushed to India. Articles like these are just plain publicity.

Intel did try to design a processor in India center during 2004-06, known as “Whitefield”. But it failed and that was a serious setback.

The Whitefield failed, but the Dunnington was designed in India. And so were all the follow ups.

Intel India team lofts a ‘sixer’
Having designed the chip from scratch, the Intel India team also carried out “post-silicon validation,” making sure the design translates into a smooth manufacturing process when it is handed over to the silicon foundry.

Intel India president Praveen Vishakantaiah, who personally led the Dunnington team in its formative period, says: “We have achieved considerable expertise in product design and the proof of this is in today’s launch of the world’s first six core x86 processor, which has been completely designed here.”

Follow ons:
Indian engineers in Bangalore's Intel labs developing world-beating products
Among them is Ravishankar Kuppuswamy, engineering director at Intel Architecture Group, who led the design efforts behind company's newest Xeon E7 high-end processor for servers. The processor is the second major chip to be designed by the India development centre, after the Dunnington in 2008.

In 2007, engineers at Intel's India centre developed over half of the famous 'teraflop' chip, which put 80 cores onto a fingernail-sized device, drawing just 62 watts of power. The chip was the world's first teraflop processor.

With new Xeon scalable processors, Intel eyes data center market in India - ET CIO

Pretty much the entire development of the Xeons happen in India.

Huawei does have its own application processor and modem. Which Indian company has developed such chips??

Yeah, but look at the size of their economy. All their stuff started coming out after they crossed the $10T mark in GDP. So look at the sheer size of that market. Our mature market is not even half that of France's.

Do you remember I told you that the market is the most important aspect for making high end technologies?

But we do have stuff like this in the works from an R&D perspective.
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1328790

There is no way to compete with mature markets yet, our per capita income is only $2000. That's why I said you should look at what can happen in the 2025-30 period.
 
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The Whitefield failed, but the Dunnington was designed in India. And so were all the follow ups.

Intel India team lofts a ‘sixer’
Having designed the chip from scratch, the Intel India team also carried out “post-silicon validation,” making sure the design translates into a smooth manufacturing process when it is handed over to the silicon foundry.

Intel India president Praveen Vishakantaiah, who personally led the Dunnington team in its formative period, says: “We have achieved considerable expertise in product design and the proof of this is in today’s launch of the world’s first six core x86 processor, which has been completely designed here.”

Follow ons:
Indian engineers in Bangalore's Intel labs developing world-beating products
Among them is Ravishankar Kuppuswamy, engineering director at Intel Architecture Group, who led the design efforts behind company's newest Xeon E7 high-end processor for servers. The processor is the second major chip to be designed by the India development centre, after the Dunnington in 2008.

In 2007, engineers at Intel's India centre developed over half of the famous 'teraflop' chip, which put 80 cores onto a fingernail-sized device, drawing just 62 watts of power. The chip was the world's first teraflop processor.

With new Xeon scalable processors, Intel eyes data center market in India - ET CIO

Pretty much the entire development of the Xeons happen in India.



Yeah, but look at the size of their economy. All their stuff started coming out after they crossed the $10T mark in GDP. So look at the sheer size of that market. Our mature market is not even half that of France's.

Do you remember I told you that the market is the most important aspect for making high end technologies?

But we do have stuff like this in the works from an R&D perspective.
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1328790

There is no way to compete with mature markets yet, our per capita income is only $2000. That's why I said you should look at what can happen in the 2025-30 period.
Dude.. As I already said, these kind of articles are just for public consumption, nothing more than that. You should not jump into an argument based on some stupid article.

Did you see in the first line, how he has combined design with post silicon validation?? Post silicon validation is the lowest end work of the chip design process and most likely that’s what was done in India center.
 
The Whitefield failed, but the Dunnington was designed in India. And so were all the follow ups.

Intel India team lofts a ‘sixer’
Having designed the chip from scratch, the Intel India team also carried out “post-silicon validation,” making sure the design translates into a smooth manufacturing process when it is handed over to the silicon foundry.

Intel India president Praveen Vishakantaiah, who personally led the Dunnington team in its formative period, says: “We have achieved considerable expertise in product design and the proof of this is in today’s launch of the world’s first six core x86 processor, which has been completely designed here.”

Follow ons:
Indian engineers in Bangalore's Intel labs developing world-beating products
Among them is Ravishankar Kuppuswamy, engineering director at Intel Architecture Group, who led the design efforts behind company's newest Xeon E7 high-end processor for servers. The processor is the second major chip to be designed by the India development centre, after the Dunnington in 2008.

In 2007, engineers at Intel's India centre developed over half of the famous 'teraflop' chip, which put 80 cores onto a fingernail-sized device, drawing just 62 watts of power. The chip was the world's first teraflop processor.

With new Xeon scalable processors, Intel eyes data center market in India - ET CIO

Pretty much the entire development of the Xeons happen in India.



Yeah, but look at the size of their economy. All their stuff started coming out after they crossed the $10T mark in GDP. So look at the sheer size of that market. Our mature market is not even half that of France's.

Do you remember I told you that the market is the most important aspect for making high end technologies?

But we do have stuff like this in the works from an R&D perspective.
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1328790

There is no way to compete with mature markets yet, our per capita income is only $2000. That's why I said you should look at what can happen in the 2025-30 period.
What’s Taiwan’s GDP? How come they have been designing and manufacturing cutting-edge chips since ages?? Don’t give reasons for the sake of reasons!!
 
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What’s Taiwan’s GDP? How come they have been designing and manufacturing cutting-edge chips since ages?? Don’t give reasons for the sake of reasons!!
Please also refer to similar attempts by Israel. But it's randomradio , we're dealing with here . It's always sunny side up.
 
Dude.. As I already said, these kind of articles are just for public consumption, nothing more than that. You should not jump into an argument based on some stupid article.

Did you see in the first line, how he has combined design with post silicon validation?? Post silicon validation is the lowest end work of the chip design process and most likely that’s what was done in India center.

You missed the part where it said "designed from scratch".

Those articles aren't for public consumption. The Xeon chips were fully designed here.

Indian Team Designs Intel's First 'true' Quad-core Chip
Designed by Intel engineers in Bangalore, India, the chip lineup includes the company's first quad-core and six-core chips produced on a single piece of silicon.

"This is a tremendous accomplishment," said Praveen Vishakantaiah, the chief architect of Dunnington, discussing the server chip in a phone interview. "No other team has been able to accomplish something like this so fast."

Moreover, the Bangalore design center is the first Intel team outside the U.S. to complete the design of a 45-nanometer processor, he said.

Why don't you ask around within the industry yourself?

What’s Taiwan’s GDP? How come they have been designing and manufacturing cutting-edge chips since ages?? Don’t give reasons for the sake of reasons!!

Please also refer to similar attempts by Israel. But it's randomradio , we're dealing with here . It's always sunny side up.

Taiwan, Israel, even South Korea made the right economic decisions upon their inception and are reaping the rewards. They pioneered in their respective fields, so they will naturally hold the advantage. Otoh, China and India made very bad economic decisions, which took decades to fix. So now China and India can only give chase in these fields as of today.

The fact is only countries like India and China are among the few, possibly the only ones, that can catch up with pioneers of high end technologies. When you pioneer, the entire world is your market. When you chase, you can only depend on your own market, and your govt protecting your market, because you can't win when the fight is fair. That's why you can't consider Taiwan, Korea and Israel and their small GDPs as an example here. Their GDPs are irrelevant when they are selling to the US, EU, India and China, while being leaders in their respective fields.

If, someday, India and China pioneer in space, AI, biotechnology etc, it will become practically impossible for the other three countries to ever catch up since they can't use the advantage of their domestic market and protectionist policies to drive their R&D.

When it comes to India and China, it's always sunny side up. There are no other third world countries in the world with advanced space and military technologies.
 
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