Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[randomradio]

But NGRAM is just not like previous gen of ARMs! Of course, Rafale's "near by " Hammer strike could ensure DEAD while old ARMs like KH-31P that we've got could only achieve SEAD.

But my point was that this new NGARM would provide MKI with Rafale like DEAD ability without getting anywhere near the threat zone. Flying low/fast hasn't proved any better for the Russian Su-34s. While Rafale is much better in this role, but in this day and age of VSHORADS, this could still prove fatal.

NGARM has got a hybrid seeker. While old gen ARMs had only Passive Homing Head(PHH) seeker, that could be defeated by just turing off the SAM/Surveillance radars; NGARM is fully guided in the mid-course by PHH seeker along with very accurate INGPS, however for the end game it has an active Millimeter Wavelength(MMW) seeker which ensures "total destruction" of hostile SAM/Surveillance radars. So it is not like launching a volley of ARMs only to shut them off. It kills them with insane accuracy.

So, it shall enable MKI to achieve 'complete' DEAD without entering the threat zone. Isn't this approach better? Even French are now accepting that Rafale needs an ARM to take on future IADS.

The issue with ARMs has always been volumes. While it's necessary, it's still necessary in massive numbers. The USAF fired over 2000 in Iraq for example. We will need 5000-10000 against China for the same effect. Even if we consider 4 missiles are carried by an MKI, that's still 1250 sorties with 100% use rate for just 5000 missiles.

Rafale's SEAD capability seems to be built around a long range missile rather than short range. Anyway, drones will become more important. Even NGARM is something like a stopgap.

 

[HariPrasad]

R-27 series still has very good kinematics. The ET variant coupled with MKI's OLS-30M is a silent killer. Earlier we bought R-27s from Ukraine but post Balakot we bought improved version of both R-27s and R-77(-1) from Russia. As per some rumours, we might have bought few R-37Ms as well!

Anyways, now that our Astra program has started to bear fruits, IAF's dependence on foreign suppliers for BVRAAMs is about to end very soon. Soon there will be "air dominance" in full desi style with desi weapons

However, dependence on Short range Air to Air missiles will remain for some time. We shall continue to rely on ASRAAM and python V till desi Astra with IRR comes in.

 

[HariPrasad]

The Import Army don't have any intellectual capability of what they want. They don't know the difference between Tactical Rocket Force and Strategic Rocket Force. Heck, the top brass whether the DRDO or MoD or Indian Forces, they constructed an Ivory tower and locked themselves in without looking what's going on elsewhere.
A True Conventional Rocket Force should stay deep inside our territories at beyond some 500km range and also target enemy deep into their territories at some 500km so that it won't itself be strike first by enemy MLRS or the enemy need disproportionately larger assets of his own to neutralize our own assets. If Indian Top brass is smart they realize that Chinese Bases hosting their Fighter Jets, Tankers are true threats and a Deep Strike Rocket Force is one of the best bang for buck while we wait for AMCA. Even if we take losses if Chinese strike first, our Conventional Rocket Force holds deterrence enough that their entire bases will get obliterated. The components should be
(Iam giving examples and these are equivalents we should have)
Subsonic
1. Tomahawk like Cruise Missile for 1000+km range (Don't know what happened to Nirbhay)
2. A Even bigger Tomahawk or Kalibr kind of missile with 2000+km range
Supersonic
1. Brahmos
Hypersonic
1. Unboosted glide vehicle at some 1500km like DF-ZF
2. Boosted glide vehicle at some 1500km like opfires of USA
3. Unboosted glide vehicle at some 3500km like LRHW of USA - this kind of missile gives us best capability to strike deep into enemy territory while staying in central india.
Ballistic MARV
1. DF-21 for range of like 1500km
2. DF-26 for range of like 5000km(we can target every base in china with this via a conventional warhead and china knows even if we fire them we won't use a nuclear warhead due to no first use policy)
Quasi Ballistic (Stays inside atmosphere <50km)
1. Precision Strike / LORA equivalent 500km range
2. PRALAY(1000km range) this one thing we got right.

The above are for strategic rocket force. A tactical rocket force like chunmoo or HIMARS with upcoming precision strike missile perhaps extend range to atmost 500km but they are not true rocket force. Perhaps UN Genrols thought rocket force is just rockets in MLRS and not deep strike. If only they inherited some intellectual capability from foreign militaries along with foreign maal.

This can be true for a particular sort of Geography but in our case with Pakistan, when shall we need to stike deep 500 km inside Pakistan when all high value targets are very much near border. In case of China, we need something either short range or long range. Either we will require to strike in Himalaya or far away from our border. Because of high mountain terrain, normal missiles will not be very effective. We need something like Brahmos MK III steep dive to target locations on other side of Mountain. Brahmos has high cost and low weight carrying issue and that is why Pralay was developed. Beyond this. Agni II prime or extended range NGCM may be used. Further to that, Agni III onward missile may be used.

 

[Speedster1]

Heck, there was even talk of adapting the 2500t Brahmos-A for taking out high value air targets some time back.

*Correction: 2.5t*

BS. Though there are talks about converting our LFRJ missile for that role.

Sounds like DDM, I know. But this news went viral a couple of years ago. Even made it to the foriegn press.

Here's a link:

India’s Brahmos missile: an added target in the air?

The Russo-Indian joint venture Brahmos Aerospace is reportedly developing a variant of the Brahmos missile designed to engage airborne early-warning and control aircraft. As Douglas Barrie argues, the reasons behind India’s interest in a very long-range air-to-air missile highlights the...

www.iiss.org

 

[Speedster1]

We need our own VLAARM to counter PLAAF's J-16 + PL-17 combo. We already have a very limited fleet of AWACS/AEW&CS. So PL-17 is a threat that is to be taken very seriously by us.

The PL-17 will complicate mission planning for the IAF but it's likely not very effective at extreme ranges of 600km. The PLAAF would need third-party cueing to guide the missile to its target.

There have been reports that USN E-2Ds can provide mid-course guidance to in-flight AMRAAMs (NIFC-A?). Even Russian A-50 AWACS are said to have the capability but some commentators have debunked it.

I'd prefer that the IAF invest in stand-off jammers (A319/20/21 based platform under dev currently) in the short term to sheild our fighters against long-range AAM and SAM threats, which the PLA has no shortage of.

 

[Speedster1]

R-27 in any form or version is just an outdated missile with max 140 kms range. It's way less that what current standard for VLAARM is. R-37M has 200-300kms

I think a low hanging fruit for the IAF is to miniaturise the PHH on the R1 and port it to the Astra-1 (and eventually 2 and 3). This should give us a passive-homing BVR to counter the LD-10 (passive guided version of the SD-10 BVRAAM) and (if adapted for ASM roles) help expedite the replacement of antique Mata Martel ARMs in our inventory, assuming they have not been phased out already.

Kh-31A/P should be out by the end of this decade as the LFRJ and SFDR programmes mature.

I think we're well positioned to replace the whole lot of Russian and some of the older Israeli A2S weapons in the inventory with the Rudram family, Gautam+PGHSLD+TARA and of course, Nirbhay+Brahmos coming up nicely. All we need is a replacement for short range Kh-29L/T EO-guided ASMs, imo.

BTW any updates on the SANT/Dhruvastra which is supposedly also being designed to arm fast jets?

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1838605680380465578

 

[Gautam]

Some old videos:

NAG ATGM minimum range engagement:

Trishul SAM shooting down a drone:

 

[Rajput Lion]

We need to continously develop Astra MK1 and not forlorn it post Astra MK2 induction. AIM-120D is smaller in length(3.6m) than Astra 1(3.84m) while both their diameters are the same(178mm). Yet, AIM-120D due to better GPS, lofted trajectory has 160kms+ range(even 180kms+ as per some reports). There is no reason why Astra 1 itself couldn't be refined further to achieve such ranges. All that would benefit the subsequent Astra 2 variants too.

 

[Lolwa]

We need to continously develop Astra MK1 and not forlorn it post Astra MK2 induction. AIM-120D is smaller in length(3.6m) than Astra 1(3.84m) while both their diameters are the same(178mm). Yet, AIM-120D due to better GPS, lofted trajectory has 160kms+ range(even 180kms+ as per some reports). There is no reason why Astra 1 itself couldn't be refined further to achieve such ranges. All that would benefit the subsequent Astra 2 variants too.

Astra mk1 could atleast be brought to c-7 range. aim120d is still a lot more advanced.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Astra mk1 could atleast be brought to c-7 range. aim120d is still a lot more advanced.

Of course, Raytheon has years of experience in refining AIM-120 series missiles. All of that culminated in AIM-120D3 variant as it recorded longest air-to-air kill in USAF tests.

We can do the same with Astra 1, IMO. However, with the arrival of Astra 2, IAF could completely move towards it leaving Astra 1. That's exactly what PLAAF did with PL-12A once PL-15 became operational. USAF may also move completely towards AIM-260 JATM once it becomes fully operational albeit slowly(as AMRAAM-D would still remain their volumes BVR for years to come).

 

[Speedster1]

AIM-120D is smaller in length(3.6m) than Astra 1(3.84m) while both their diameters are the same(178mm). Yet, AIM-120D due to better GPS, lofted trajectory has 160kms+ range(even 180kms+ as per some reports)

It's commendable that DRDO was able to achieve a 100km+ range with the Astra-1 while restricting the weight to 157kg.

Of course, Raytheon has years of experience in refining AIM-120 series missiles. All of that culminated in AIM-120D3 variant as it recorded longest air-to-air kill in USAF tests.

Cross pollination of tech across programs is one of DRDOs strong points and that gives us an edge on domain specialists that only develop one category of weapons.

However, with the arrival of Astra 2, IAF could completely move towards it leaving Astra 1

Now that there are intl buyers for Astra-1 like Armenia, the IAF will need to order it in substantial quantities rather than just 'certifying' it as a good product to avoid being questioned by the govt.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's commendable that DRDO was able to achieve a 100km+ range with the Astra-1 while restricting the weight to 157kg.

This 157kgs for Astra MK1 is simply outdated info. Astra was redesigned multiple times. 157kgs was weight of the variant which had 3.57m length.

The final version which has gone into production has 3.84m length and 170kgs weight.

Cross pollination of tech across programs is one of DRDOs strong points and that gives us an edge on domain specialists that only develop one category of weapons.

Yes.

Now that there are intl buyers for Astra-1 like Armenia, the IAF will need to order it in substantial quantities rather than just 'certifying' it as a good product to avoid being questioned by the govt.

Absolutely.

 

[marich01]

new ammo

https://twitter.com/x/status/1839670554468520122

 

[Speedster1]

The final version which has gone into production has 3.84m length and 170kgs weight.

That AUW is the same as VL-SRSAM which is supposedly fatter, and heavier than the Astra-1 due to TVC and other changes for surface launch.

Are you sure that the 170kg figure is excluding the weight of the pylon adapter? I remember seeing a pic somewhere where the missile was slung under an adapter which was attached to the (Tejas?) aircraft's own underwing pylon.

 

[Rajput Lion]

That AUW is the same as VL-SRSAM which is supposedly fatter, and heavier than the Astra-1 due to TVC and other changes for surface launch.

Are you sure that the 170kg figure is excluding the weight of the pylon adapter? I remember seeing a pic somewhere where the missile was slung under an adapter which was attached to the (Tejas?) aircraft's own underwing pylon.

The TVC seemingly doesn't weigh that much. As you can see here, the original version had 3.57m length and launch weight of 154 kgs:

However, later on they increased its length to 3.84m which increased its range from 80kms to 110kms and weight from 154kgs to 170kgs:

Those small TVS vanes at the bottom won't increase VL-SRSAM's weight from 154kgs to 170 kgs, IMO.

So, Astra MK1 has 170kgs weight, expect Astra 2 to weigh around 4-5 kgs more, hence at around 175kgs. Astra 3's quoted weight thus far is around 220kgs.

 

[Speedster1]

I guess, you're right. It's not common practice to quote the missile specifications, in this case weight, with any support/launch equipment included.

In that case, VL-SRSAM must be identical to Mk1 in all respects except fin placement and TVC. I thought it was a Mk2 in all but name.

Anyways, time will tell.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1840035651267309839

 

[Rajput Lion]

I guess, you're right. It's not common practice to quote the missile specifications, in this case weight, with any support/launch equipment included.

In that case, VL-SRSAM must be identical to Mk1 in all respects except fin placement and TVC. I thought it was a Mk2 in all but name.

Anyways, time will tell.

I dug out another "official" DRDO poster of Astra MK1 for you, which shall allay all your doubts about its weight

Here(the right one):

Source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833176780284244132

 

[Rajput Lion]

In the above poster of Astra MK3, we see that its diameter is given as 178/200 mm. Astra MK2 has 178/190mm diameter. Generally DRDO doesn't give diameter of wing span. So we've to assume that 200mm diameter of Astra MKIII is not including Ramjet intakes but ONLY of mid-body. So slightly thicker mid-portion shall give it more propellant/fuel. Nice